218 réponses à ce sujet

[majinstrings]

2112.rush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

2112.rush wrote...

I wouldn't have a problem with this idea, except HARBINGER ISN'T SHOOTING during the evac scene. You can actually see Harbinger sitting in the background and doing nothing while the scene is going on.

And no sound of his weapons fire is to be heard at all. The only weapon sounds you here are the Cutscene Avengers the troopers are using to fend of...what exactly? Marauder Shields?

I think that was more of a stylistic choice for the like 10 seconds where Shepard is saying goodbye. Everything gets turned waaaay low, and they show Harbinger for like a second not shooting. I think if you were to ask BioWare if Harby was shooting while he was saying goodbye they'd say yes.

I would, to be perfectly honest, have absolutly no issues with that explanation if you couldn't SEE him sitting and doing nothing during the scene, when seconds before he was laying down a furious and effective wall of fire.

Is it possilbe the creators just forgot and failed to put it in? Possibly, but it's a fairly major mistake that would have solved many of the issues people are bringing up in this thread.

You know...it is possible...
They were trying to get the EC out pretty fast and it seems like an easy thing to miss...

But I still think the action was just kind of put on pause for the stories sake...if it wasn't Shepard would turn around and see all of Hammer turned to a pile of blood and ash and be like: "Guess I shouldn't have milked that last goodbye."

[majinstrings]

LucasShark wrote...

And a movie is just a movie: that doesn't mean you want your audience to notice the wall isn't stone but painted cardboard!

Yeah...well, I think it's a little bit more forgivable for a video game than it is for a movie...but mistakes happen in movies, too...
This could've just been an overlooked mistake...a similar 'mistake' happened earlier in the game when Kai Leng was trying to kill the Councilor...Shepard jumps down to confront Kai and instead of keeping the high ground, your squad walks downstairs to regroup with Shepard...then, while Thane is fighting Kai, there are plenty of open shots for 'Shep and Friends' to take out Leng but apparently forget how to shoot...

Not actually a 'mistake', just something that adds to the story...Thane dies, Leng escapes...
The alternative would be Thane lives, Leng dies early and is unable to steal Catalyst info on Thessia and blah blah blah...less dramatic...

Shepard could've killed Leng while he was busy fighting Thane but the story would've been less interesting...
Harbinger could've kept attacking but then the game would pretty much end there with Hammer, Shepard and the Normandy obliterated...not a great end...
Though the actually ending...not sure it's much better...

[2112.rush]

majinstrings wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

And a movie is just a movie: that doesn't mean you want your audience to notice the wall isn't stone but painted cardboard!

Yeah...well, I think it's a little bit more forgivable for a video game than it is for a movie...but mistakes happen in movies, too...
This could've just been an overlooked mistake...a similar 'mistake' happened earlier in the game when Kai Leng was trying to kill the Councilor...Shepard jumps down to confront Kai and instead of keeping the high ground, your squad walks downstairs to regroup with Shepard...then, while Thane is fighting Kai, there are plenty of open shots for 'Shep and Friends' to take out Leng but apparently forget how to shoot...

Not actually a 'mistake', just something that adds to the story...Thane dies, Leng escapes...
The alternative would be Thane lives, Leng dies early and is unable to steal Catalyst info on Thessia and blah blah blah...less dramatic...

Shepard could've killed Leng while he was busy fighting Thane but the story would've been less interesting...
Harbinger could've kept attacking but then the game would pretty much end there with Hammer, Shepard and the Normandy obliterated...not a great end...
Though the actually ending...not sure it's much better...

Unfortunately, when your major plot elements have to rely on obvious and ham fisted contrivances, you REALLY need to start rethinking things...

Modifié par 2112.rush, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:26 .

[majinstrings]

2112.rush wrote...

majinstrings wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

And a movie is just a movie: that doesn't mean you want your audience to notice the wall isn't stone but painted cardboard!

Yeah...well, I think it's a little bit more forgivable for a video game than it is for a movie...but mistakes happen in movies, too...
This could've just been an overlooked mistake...a similar 'mistake' happened earlier in the game when Kai Leng was trying to kill the Councilor...Shepard jumps down to confront Kai and instead of keeping the high ground, your squad walks downstairs to regroup with Shepard...then, while Thane is fighting Kai, there are plenty of open shots for 'Shep and Friends' to take out Leng but apparently forget how to shoot...

Not actually a 'mistake', just something that adds to the story...Thane dies, Leng escapes...
The alternative would be Thane lives, Leng dies early and is unable to steal Catalyst info on Thessia and blah blah blah...less dramatic...

Shepard could've killed Leng while he was busy fighting Thane but the story would've been less interesting...
Harbinger could've kept attacking but then the game would pretty much end there with Hammer, Shepard and the Normandy obliterated...not a great end...
Though the actually ending...not sure it's much better...

Unfortunately, when your major plot elements have to rely on obvious and ham fisted contrivances, you REALLY need to start rethinking things...

Heh...yeah, I suppose...definitely not how I would've handled those scenes...don't particularly like those kind of things happening but I try to ignore them...

[Pick a color]

2112.rush wrote...
I wouldn't have a problem with this idea, except HARBINGER ISN'T SHOOTING during the evac scene. You can actually see Harbinger sitting in the background and doing nothing while the scene is going on.

And no sound of his weapons fire is to be heard at all. The only weapon sounds you here are the Cutscene Avengers the troopers are using to fend of...what exactly? Marauder Shields?

It was a very touching scene. Harbinger supports the arts, and is a big fan of street theater.

Plus he runs on MSDOS, couldn't multitask at all.

[2112.rush]

Pick a color wrote...

2112.rush wrote...
I wouldn't have a problem with this idea, except HARBINGER ISN'T SHOOTING during the evac scene. You can actually see Harbinger sitting in the background and doing nothing while the scene is going on.

And no sound of his weapons fire is to be heard at all. The only weapon sounds you here are the Cutscene Avengers the troopers are using to fend of...what exactly? Marauder Shields?

It was a very touching scene. Harbinger supports the arts, and is a big fan of street theater.

Plus he runs on MSDOS, couldn't multitask at all.

[WhiteKnyght]

vware wrote...

Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch

I missed this conversation between EDI and engineer Adams on my 3 playthroughs. I'm glad there is some reasoning behind this.

HUMANS ARE DUST IN THE STELLAR WIND.

There are quite a few reasonable explainations. I can think of a dozen.

1. Stealth systems. Reapers don't exactly have optics arrays, so they probably see through sensors. Which the Normandy's stealth drive would make them invisible to. Organic beings give off heat, making them visible, but the Normandy's emissions sinks keep heat from getting out.

2. Updated Reaper IFF. EDI keeps the IFF's programs updated and unpredictable, that way they appear as a Reaper to scanners.

3. Cyberwarfare suites. EDI's firewalls and programs are based off of Reaper viruses extracted by Sovereign, and have evolved in what she described as "ways that would be computationally impossible to predict" meaning she might be able to hack Harbinger when close by.

4. It's not in his orders. Harbinger was guarding the beam. Shooting down the ship would distract him from blasting people who were trying to get to the beam. He cant risk someone getting through just because he has a grudge with Shepard's ship.

5. Shepard wasn't on the Normandy. Harbinger has always been fascinated by Shepard and wanted to study him. But he always gave orders to kill him if they couldn't bring him in alive.

6. No point in shooting down a retreating ship when his goal is to kill anyone who approaches the beam.

7. Harbinger's gun may not have been angled appropriately. If you notice, the Reapers generally only fire straight forward and don't have a lot of movement. Harbinger's had a little more, but every shot he fired was tecnically below him. The Normandy, at the point when he would have fired was above his range.

8. His gun may not have been able to pierce the Normandy's shields. Harbinger's gun fires smaller versions of the conventional Reaper laser as a trade off to being able to fire at multiple targets simultaneously. And the Normandy SR-2 has upgraded armor and shields from ME2. Cyclonic Barriers are more resistent than normal shields, and if they fail, the normal shields kick in. And if he gets through those, the Normandy has diamond coated silaris armor. Meaning Joker could have taken a few hits and still gotten away. Making firing at it a waste of time.

9. If the Normandy fell into the beam itself, it could destroy it, something that's just as detrimental for the Reapers as the organics. The Reapers set up the beam as a way to transport their harvested materials to the citadel for processing. The fact that Harbinger didn't just destroy the beam to keep Shepard's forces from going through means it's important to them to keep it running.

10. If the Normandy crashed on the beam, there's also a chance that it could be sent up into the Citadel(remember the Conduit on Ilos when Shepard drove the Mako into it.) And if it didn't explode, surviving crew members would be able to get the arms open. If it did explode, the ships mass effect core's explosion would be devestating and could damage the Catalyst's core, which is in the chamber right above the entry point as the ending shows.

11. Mass Effect core explosions also cause powerful shock waves. If the Normandy blew up in range of the beam, it could very well propel objects and people nearby into the beam. Like the people in the Makos who wouldn't be killed by the blast. Thus sending them up to the Citadel.

12. If the Normandy did get shot down, Shepard could call for more ships to come down. Which would begin firing on him to keep him busy while evacuating more people and allowing Shepard to get through to the beam. Harbinger was far away enough from the beam that it wouldn't interfere with shots fired on him.

[BeastSaver]

Nevermind

Modifié par BeastSaver, 09 janvier 2013 - 03:07 .

[Galbrant]

Ugh... I hated the entire scene even without Javik or EDI... My Shepard would never call the Normandy out of its combat in space to put the lives of his squad above the soldiers getting slaughter by Harbringer. Once Normandy had landed it should have been game over Harbringer should had blasted the Normandy to pieces taking out a good chunk of Hammer force around Shepard and the Normandy. The fact that Bioware had the gall to call this trash hard work is insulting. They wasted their money and the fans time hammering another nail into Mass Effect Coffin.

Modifié par Galbrant, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:12 .

[Maxster_]

Harbringer just decided to deliberately lower power of his guns and descend to a surface to shoot individual soldiers for lulz.
He could just turned off the beam.
He could just one-shot entire retarded offensive with his main gun.
But there would be no fun in doing that.

Nothing in priority:earth makes any sense, EC or not. It is plain lore-breaking nonsensical garbage as is ME3 as a whole.

Speaking of which - how exactly reapers tracking Normandy in FTL in that retarded lore-breaking "reaper-chase" minigame?


Anyway, EAWare just "fixed" one plothole(teleporting squadmates) with even bigger plothole(teleporting Normandy) and made entire sequence even less sensical that it was before. That's an achievement

Modifié par Maxster_, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:14 .

[Outsider edge]

Well as i said above another contrivence is the fact Harbinger is actually alone at the beam shooting at Hammer forces. Where are the other two capital ships that descend with him too defend the beam. Even if an explanation is those two hovered above the beam out of sight it would mean the Normandy had too get past them too evacuate the team. If the Normandy's stealth system is so advanced it can be invisible for no less then three capital reaper ships in close viscinity why did they have too do a ground assault? Just jump into the beam completely Ilos style.

The whole scene makes very little sense.

[JasonShepard]

Outsider edge wrote...

Well as i said above another contrivence is the fact Harbinger is actually alone at the beam shooting at Hammer forces. Where are the other two capital ships that descend with him too defend the beam. Even if an explanation is those two hovered above the beam out of sight it would mean the Normandy had too get past them too evacuate the team. If the Normandy's stealth system is so advanced it can be invisible for no less then three capital reaper ships in close viscinity why did they have too do a ground assault? Just jump into the beam completely Ilos style.

The whole scene makes very little sense.

There is the line "Any available ships, delay those Reapers leaving the battle!" during the sequence where you see Harbinger and the other two descending. Presumably the other two ships were delayed.
In fact, that could explain how Normandy got there so quickly, if there is a battle going on between allied fleets and two sovereign class Reapers directly above the Citadel Beam.

[Mentxi]

Harbinger likes the endings

[Zardoc]

Still nonsense.

[Han Shot First]

Harbinger not firing on the Normandy actually makes sense in that scene.

The real threat to Harbinger isn't the Normandy, which couldn't even put a dent in his hull, but rather the dismounted infantry and the armored vehicles and aircraft that were supporting them. If any Alliance Marines managed to get the beam, they could potentially destroy the Reapers. As such it makes a lot more sense for Harbinger to be concentrating his fire entirely on the ground force that was rapidly closing on the beam, and not on the tiny frigate that was only engaged in evacuating wounded.

The ground force was the priority target, not the Normandy. And Harbinger had his priorities entirely in order.

[Postman778]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

vware wrote...

Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch

I missed this conversation between EDI and engineer Adams on my 3 playthroughs. I'm glad there is some reasoning behind this.

HUMANS ARE DUST IN THE STELLAR WIND.

There are quite a few reasonable explainations. I can think of a dozen.

1. Stealth systems. Reapers don't exactly have optics arrays, so they probably see through sensors. Which the Normandy's stealth drive would make them invisible to. Organic beings give off heat, making them visible, but the Normandy's emissions sinks keep heat from getting out.

2. Updated Reaper IFF. EDI keeps the IFF's programs updated and unpredictable, that way they appear as a Reaper to scanners.

3. Cyberwarfare suites. EDI's firewalls and programs are based off of Reaper viruses extracted by Sovereign, and have evolved in what she described as "ways that would be computationally impossible to predict" meaning she might be able to hack Harbinger when close by.

4. It's not in his orders. Harbinger was guarding the beam. Shooting down the ship would distract him from blasting people who were trying to get to the beam. He cant risk someone getting through just because he has a grudge with Shepard's ship.

5. Shepard wasn't on the Normandy. Harbinger has always been fascinated by Shepard and wanted to study him. But he always gave orders to kill him if they couldn't bring him in alive.

6. No point in shooting down a retreating ship when his goal is to kill anyone who approaches the beam.

7. Harbinger's gun may not have been angled appropriately. If you notice, the Reapers generally only fire straight forward and don't have a lot of movement. Harbinger's had a little more, but every shot he fired was tecnically below him. The Normandy, at the point when he would have fired was above his range.

8. His gun may not have been able to pierce the Normandy's shields. Harbinger's gun fires smaller versions of the conventional Reaper laser as a trade off to being able to fire at multiple targets simultaneously. And the Normandy SR-2 has upgraded armor and shields from ME2. Cyclonic Barriers are more resistent than normal shields, and if they fail, the normal shields kick in. And if he gets through those, the Normandy has diamond coated silaris armor. Meaning Joker could have taken a few hits and still gotten away. Making firing at it a waste of time.

9. If the Normandy fell into the beam itself, it could destroy it, something that's just as detrimental for the Reapers as the organics. The Reapers set up the beam as a way to transport their harvested materials to the citadel for processing. The fact that Harbinger didn't just destroy the beam to keep Shepard's forces from going through means it's important to them to keep it running.

10. If the Normandy crashed on the beam, there's also a chance that it could be sent up into the Citadel(remember the Conduit on Ilos when Shepard drove the Mako into it.) And if it didn't explode, surviving crew members would be able to get the arms open. If it did explode, the ships mass effect core's explosion would be devestating and could damage the Catalyst's core, which is in the chamber right above the entry point as the ending shows.

11. Mass Effect core explosions also cause powerful shock waves. If the Normandy blew up in range of the beam, it could very well propel objects and people nearby into the beam. Like the people in the Makos who wouldn't be killed by the blast. Thus sending them up to the Citadel.

12. If the Normandy did get shot down, Shepard could call for more ships to come down. Which would begin firing on him to keep him busy while evacuating more people and allowing Shepard to get through to the beam. Harbinger was far away enough from the beam that it wouldn't interfere with shots fired on him.

AHHH, yes, explanations and excuses for bad writing, we have dismissed that claim.

[Outsider edge]

JasonShepard wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Well as i said above another contrivence is the fact Harbinger is actually alone at the beam shooting at Hammer forces. Where are the other two capital ships that descend with him too defend the beam. Even if an explanation is those two hovered above the beam out of sight it would mean the Normandy had too get past them too evacuate the team. If the Normandy's stealth system is so advanced it can be invisible for no less then three capital reaper ships in close viscinity why did they have too do a ground assault? Just jump into the beam completely Ilos style.

The whole scene makes very little sense.

There is the line "Any available ships, delay those Reapers leaving the battle!" during the sequence where you see Harbinger and the other two descending. Presumably the other two ships were delayed.
In fact, that could explain how Normandy got there so quickly, if there is a battle going on between allied fleets and two sovereign class Reapers directly above the Citadel Beam.

Still doesn't make sense. The objective of those reaper ships was too defend the beam and stop the ground assault. They would have just pushed right through any ships trying too delay them. Like Sovereign did in Mass Effect 1 his objective there was too dock on the Citadel and he simply pushed right through the turian fleets trying too stop and delay him. He didn't bother trying too fight them and i see no reason why those reaper ships should choose otherwise.

[Outsider edge]

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger not firing on the Normandy actually makes sense in that scene.

The real threat to Harbinger isn't the Normandy, which couldn't even put a dent in his hull, but rather the dismounted infantry and the armored vehicles and aircraft that were supporting them. If any Alliance Marines managed to get the beam, they could potentially destroy the Reapers. As such it makes a lot more sense for Harbinger to be concentrating his fire entirely on the ground force that was rapidly closing on the beam, and not on the tiny frigate that was only engaged in evacuating wounded.

The ground force was the priority target, not the Normandy. And Harbinger had his priorities entirely in order.

Nah it was nonsense. In fact if the Normandy was able too evacuate people close too the beam why didn't it not attack Harbinger itself? Normandy has Thannix cannons and could have seriously damaged Harbinger. Instead they evecuate two squadmates of Shepard while the rest of Hammer get's mauled by Harbinger. Logic.....there is none.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 09 janvier 2013 - 10:25 .

[wright1978]

Outsider edge wrote...

Nah it was nonsense. In fact if the Normandy was able too evacuate people close too the beam why didn't it not attack Harbinger itself? Normandy has Thannix cannons and could have seriously damaged Harbinger. Instead they evecuate two squadmates of Shepard while the rest of Hammer get's mauled by Harbinger. Logic.....there is none.

Yep agree completely. Normandy's actions are just nonsense.

[Han Shot First]

Outsider edge wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger not firing on the Normandy actually makes sense in that scene.

The real threat to Harbinger isn't the Normandy, which couldn't even put a dent in his hull, but rather the dismounted infantry and the armored vehicles and aircraft that were supporting them. If any Alliance Marines managed to get the beam, they could potentially destroy the Reapers. As such it makes a lot more sense for Harbinger to be concentrating his fire entirely on the ground force that was rapidly closing on the beam, and not on the tiny frigate that was only engaged in evacuating wounded.

The ground force was the priority target, not the Normandy. And Harbinger had his priorities entirely in order.

Nah it was nonsense. In fact if the Normandy was able too evacuate people close too the beam why didn't it not attack Harbinger itself? Normandy has Thannix cannons and could have seriously damaged Harbinger. Instead they evecuate two squadmates of Shepard while the rest of Hammer get's mauled by Harbinger. Logic.....there is none.

The Normandy couldn't do any damage to Harbinger.

Harbinger is the flashship of the Reaper fleet. It is the most powerful dreadnought that they field, and even standard Reaper dreadnoughts can absorb a lot of punishement before they can be taken down. A single frigate would not even scratch Harbinger's paint. In fact the lore states that it takes the equivalent firepower of four dreadnoughts to bring down a Reaper, and that is firepower that the Normandy certainly did not pack.

From a military point of view, Harbinger not firing on the Normandy makes complete sense.

[MuhidinSaid]

Because if Harbinger had fired on the Normandy the beam would've hit Shepard too and the game would've been over then and there.


Hmm...then again, that ending actually sounds a bit better...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

vware wrote...

Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch

I missed this conversation between EDI and engineer Adams on my 3 playthroughs. I'm glad there is some reasoning behind this.

HUMANS ARE DUST IN THE STELLAR WIND.

Then why did Harbinger show up in the first place?

[Outsider edge]

Han Shot First wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger not firing on the Normandy actually makes sense in that scene.

The real threat to Harbinger isn't the Normandy, which couldn't even put a dent in his hull, but rather the dismounted infantry and the armored vehicles and aircraft that were supporting them. If any Alliance Marines managed to get the beam, they could potentially destroy the Reapers. As such it makes a lot more sense for Harbinger to be concentrating his fire entirely on the ground force that was rapidly closing on the beam, and not on the tiny frigate that was only engaged in evacuating wounded.

The ground force was the priority target, not the Normandy. And Harbinger had his priorities entirely in order.

Nah it was nonsense. In fact if the Normandy was able too evacuate people close too the beam why didn't it not attack Harbinger itself? Normandy has Thannix cannons and could have seriously damaged Harbinger. Instead they evecuate two squadmates of Shepard while the rest of Hammer get's mauled by Harbinger. Logic.....there is none.

The Normandy couldn't do any damage to Harbinger.

Harbinger is the flashship of the Reaper fleet. It is the most powerful dreadnought that they field, and even standard Reaper dreadnoughts can absorb a lot of punishement before they can be taken down. A single frigate would not even scratch Harbinger's paint. In fact the lore states that it takes the equivalent firepower of four dreadnoughts to bring down a Reaper, and that is firepower that the Normandy certainly did not pack.

From a military point of view, Harbinger not firing on the Normandy makes complete sense.

Sure. And the Normandy disabled the collector ship with one blast of those Thannix cannons. Turian cruisers not equiped with them took out capital ships on their own at Palaven. And you are saying the Normandy wouldn't be able too scratch Harby?

Also from a military point of view what's more beneficial attacking an enemy trying too damage or distract it while a groundforce can push through or extract two people while the groundforce get's annihilated in the background?

You really are reaching here the whole scene is just nonsense.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 09 janvier 2013 - 10:47 .

[MuhidinSaid]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

vware wrote...

Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch

I missed this conversation between EDI and engineer Adams on my 3 playthroughs. I'm glad there is some reasoning behind this.

HUMANS ARE DUST IN THE STELLAR WIND.

Then why did Harbinger show up in the first place?

Even Ol'Harby knows not to run afoul of EA, it was in his contract.

[MuhidinSaid]

Outsider edge wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Harbinger not firing on the Normandy actually makes sense in that scene.

The real threat to Harbinger isn't the Normandy, which couldn't even put a dent in his hull, but rather the dismounted infantry and the armored vehicles and aircraft that were supporting them. If any Alliance Marines managed to get the beam, they could potentially destroy the Reapers. As such it makes a lot more sense for Harbinger to be concentrating his fire entirely on the ground force that was rapidly closing on the beam, and not on the tiny frigate that was only engaged in evacuating wounded.

The ground force was the priority target, not the Normandy. And Harbinger had his priorities entirely in order.

Nah it was nonsense. In fact if the Normandy was able too evacuate people close too the beam why didn't it not attack Harbinger itself? Normandy has Thannix cannons and could have seriously damaged Harbinger. Instead they evecuate two squadmates of Shepard while the rest of Hammer get's mauled by Harbinger. Logic.....there is none.

The Normandy couldn't do any damage to Harbinger.

Harbinger is the flashship of the Reaper fleet. It is the most powerful dreadnought that they field, and even standard Reaper dreadnoughts can absorb a lot of punishement before they can be taken down. A single frigate would not even scratch Harbinger's paint. In fact the lore states that it takes the equivalent firepower of four dreadnoughts to bring down a Reaper, and that is firepower that the Normandy certainly did not pack.

From a military point of view, Harbinger not firing on the Normandy makes complete sense.

Sure. And the Normandy disabled the collector ship with one blast of those Thannix cannons. Turian cruisers not equiped with them took out capital ships on their own at Palaven. And you are saying the Normansy wouldn't be able too scratch Harby?....You are reaching it's just nonsense.

Harbinger is the oldest and most powerful reaper though, and capital ships can take fire from 3-4 dreadnoughts at once, presumably even those armed with thanix cannons.

Could the Normandy damage Harbinger? No chance in hell, IMO, unless there's some clarification on exactly how vulnerable reapers are to thanix cannons.