291 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I again ask you why the scene would be included if he were dead like in every other ending?

Well, they either wanted to show he's alive and just botched it pretty badly or they are just trolling. I'm not even sure anymore which option I'd prefer.

Okay, no, forget it. I'm tired and I should go now.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:43 .

[crimzontearz]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Whereas Shepard is literally alive and breathes.

Yes, he is alive in the moment we see him ("him" meaning a torso in some rubble). Given the state Shep was in before he met the Starchild and what happens with the Citadel and considering the situation outside the Citadel I just don't see how he's supposed to survive. At all. But okay, the problem is just my lacking imagination and my secret wish to see the character I played over 100 hours to die miserably and alone. Let me work on that...


...yeah, okay I'm ready. He was alive when I last saw him, therefore he lives happily ever after. It's clear, it's logical, I get it now. My new canon ending:

Shepard spends the rest of his days in Australia, sipping drinks with Butch and Sundance.

How many times do I have to repeat this to people? Everyone's got conspiracy caps on here.

There is no point in puting that scene in there if he's supposed to be dead. That would make no sense.

then there is no sense in going on record saying it is up for interpretation especially when it pisees people off

oh wait

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

you mean like...surprise Lelianna is not really dead? I am sorry at this point I really do not trust them and without you shutting off your brain and ignoring the context and listen just to author intent all signs point to the fact he would not survive

I again ask you why the scene would be included if he were dead like in every other ending?

the desire to half arsedly NOT ****** even more people off

if that is the case again I ask you why not flat out say it?

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

Well, except for the fact that that gasp scene plays out pretty much like the most juvenile of cliff hangers from some Soap Opera and I have seen just that sort of thing in many of them.  Back in the day, there was always some sort of catastrophe in a Soap Opera with people laying in the rubble and someone would move slightly-someone that had looked dead.  That ending is one of the cheapest shots  (cheap as in not really using much of the story in some logical way, because the people should have all died).  In fact, nighttime Soap Operas like Dynasty (of the 1980s) and others also used similar scenes.  They also would regularly use something similar for car crashes, tornadoes, bombs at big gala events and shootings.  So, think it's well done and just the greatest thing ever, no it isn't.

Soap Operas that ran Mon-Fri would end on Friday with say, a big bomb going off at a party and then you'd see a lot of what looks like dead people in rubble-the cliffhanger, who died, did anyone live?.  Then, on Monday they'd redo that same shot, bomb goes off, bodies laying around and slight movement in the rubble.  Then credits would roll and there would be scenes of rescuers arriving and it took awhile to get back to that moving rubble.  It might take the week to get to people trapped in the mess.  That was very typical.  So, anyone that thinks that's a great way to end all of this, you would have loved Soap Operas.

I fully believe it's supposed to be Shepard alive, however the mess that gets to all of that is just that, a mess.  The fact is, after being shown what we were shown it just is far more likely that Shepard should be dead, so what we see is disconnected from what we feel about all of it and that is opposite to what we want to feel.  It feels like Shepard dies because that fits what we see happening.  So, it makes no sense.

Beyond that, it is not enough to feel good about, even when you can accept that Shepard lives.  The ambiguity that is the most awful part of it is that it would have been so very emotional to have one "get out of the rubble" scene with the crew nearby.  The impact of that would have been truly great.

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]
the desire to half arsedly NOT ****** even more people off

if that is the case again I ask you why not flat out say it?[/quote]

but if there were an 'official' canon for the story and bioware announced it.. That would soooo much fun.

(make harvest look like a potato sack race..)

[Legion of 1337]

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Whereas Shepard is literally alive and breathes.

Yes, he is alive in the moment we see him ("him" meaning a torso in some rubble). Given the state Shep was in before he met the Starchild and what happens with the Citadel and considering the situation outside the Citadel I just don't see how he's supposed to survive. At all. But okay, the problem is just my lacking imagination and my secret wish to see the character I played over 100 hours to die miserably and alone. Let me work on that...


...yeah, okay I'm ready. He was alive when I last saw him, therefore he lives happily ever after. It's clear, it's logical, I get it now. My new canon ending:

Shepard spends the rest of his days in Australia, sipping drinks with Butch and Sundance.

How many times do I have to repeat this to people? Everyone's got conspiracy caps on here.

There is no point in puting that scene in there if he's supposed to be dead. That would make no sense.

then there is no sense in going on record saying it is up for interpretation especially when it pisees people off

oh wait

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

you mean like...surprise Lelianna is not really dead? I am sorry at this point I really do not trust them and without you shutting off your brain and ignoring the context and listen just to author intent all signs point to the fact he would not survive

I again ask you why the scene would be included if he were dead like in every other ending?

the desire to half arsedly NOT ****** even more people off

if that is the case again I ask you why not flat out say it?

Because they flat out won't say ANYTHING about what happens in th endings at all, either because they realized they ****ed up and don't want to admit they don't know what they're talking about, or because they honestly think by making everyone consantly debate about what's happening that it means the endings are good.

We've determined the breath scene means he's alive by logic. Unlike, say, "how does synthesis even work?", we can easily logically deduce the meaning of the breath scene, because it's the only thing that makes sense.

Like TheRealJayDee said, they're either telling you he's alive or trolling you. The latter doesn't make sense, so we go with the former.

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

Modifié par Legion of 1337, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:47 .

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

Well, except for the fact that that gasp scene plays out pretty much like the most juvenile of cliff hangers from some Soap Opera and I have seen just that sort of thing in many of them.  Back in the day, there was always some sort of catastrophe in a Soap Opera with people laying in the rubble and someone would move slightly-someone that had looked dead.  That ending is one of the cheapest shots  (cheap as in not really using much of the story in some logical way, because the people should have all died).  In fact, nighttime Soap Operas like Dynasty (of the 1980s) and others also used similar scenes.  They also would regularly use something similar for car crashes, tornadoes, bombs at big gala events and shootings.  So, think it's well done and just the greatest thing ever, no it isn't.

Soap Operas that ran Mon-Fri would end on Friday with say, a big bomb going off at a party and then you'd see a lot of what looks like dead people in rubble-the cliffhanger, who died, did anyone live?.  Then, on Monday they'd redo that same shot, bomb goes off, bodies laying around and slight movement in the rubble.  Then credits would roll and there would be scenes of rescuers arriving and it took awhile to get back to that moving rubble.  It might take the week to get to people trapped in the mess.  That was very typical.  So, anyone that thinks that's a great way to end all of this, you would have loved Soap Operas.

I fully believe it's supposed to be Shepard alive, however the mess that gets to all of that is just that, a mess.  The fact is, after being shown what we were shown it just is far more likely that Shepard should be dead, so what we see is disconnected from what we feel about all of it and that is opposite to what we want to feel.  It feels like Shepard dies because that fits what we see happening.  So, it makes no sense.

Beyond that, it is not enough to feel good about, even when you can accept that Shepard lives.  The ambiguity that is the most awful part of it is that it would have been so very emotional to have one "get out of the rubble" scene with the crew nearby.  The impact of that would have been truly great.

green hornet vs green lantern.. now THAT'S excitement..lol

[Kais Endac]

It's kinda funny really since some older rpgs had endings in which the pc's survial is not guaranteed (NWN2 is the only one I can think of off hand and to falling rubble no less) but I never complained. But then again they never had the level of emotional investment that the Mass Effect series had. Heck if it had happened in NWN or even FF7 (aerith's death still makes me cry tho) I would have just gone oh well and moved on.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

Kais Endac wrote...


I think the length of the reveal is a problem for some as well the scene is perhaps two three seconds of a game that takes about thirty hours to complete, ninety on average if you've played all three. After all that investment where some people have tried to gain the ultimate outcome of each choice, to get a scene where Shep takes one breath and the memorial scene does not live up to expectations. Head canon is a valid solution but people want ot actually see it happen in game as a reward for playing. 

Yes, exactly you do read stories and play games with stories for the payoff, emotional and otherwise.  And we are all different.  I can imagine many things just fine.  I started gaming when many of them were text only adventures, so you had to imagine a lot-and I never liked to draw my own maps to things so I kept everything in my head.  After people waited 5 years in many cases, and played through hundreds of hours in the first 2 games and anticipated some great final confrontation with the reapers (that never came) the least that many wanted was some possible good outcome for Shepard that did make it all seem at least ok.  That torso in rubble doesn't even have a face (though I know it's Shepard).  The gasp is a teaser, not closure.

[Wayning_Star]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Whereas Shepard is literally alive and breathes.

Yes, he is alive in the moment we see him ("him" meaning a torso in some rubble). Given the state Shep was in before he met the Starchild and what happens with the Citadel and considering the situation outside the Citadel I just don't see how he's supposed to survive. At all. But okay, the problem is just my lacking imagination and my secret wish to see the character I played over 100 hours to die miserably and alone. Let me work on that...


...yeah, okay I'm ready. He was alive when I last saw him, therefore he lives happily ever after. It's clear, it's logical, I get it now. My new canon ending:

Shepard spends the rest of his days in Australia, sipping drinks with Butch and Sundance.

How many times do I have to repeat this to people? Everyone's got conspiracy caps on here.

There is no point in puting that scene in there if he's supposed to be dead. That would make no sense.

then there is no sense in going on record saying it is up for interpretation especially when it pisees people off

oh wait

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

you mean like...surprise Lelianna is not really dead? I am sorry at this point I really do not trust them and without you shutting off your brain and ignoring the context and listen just to author intent all signs point to the fact he would not survive

I again ask you why the scene would be included if he were dead like in every other ending?

the desire to half arsedly NOT ****** even more people off

if that is the case again I ask you why not flat out say it?

Because they flat out won't say ANYTHING about what happens in th endings at all, either because they realized they ****ed up and don't want to admit they don't know what they're talking about, or because they honestly think by making everyone consantly debate about what's happening that it means the endings are good.

We've determined the breath scene means he's alive by logic. Unlike, say, "how does synthesis even work?", we can easily logically deduce the meaning of the breath scene, because it's the only thing that makes sense.

Like TheRealJayDee said, they're either telling you he's alive or trolling you. The latter doesn't make sense, so we go with the former.

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

Nope, shep done, but he/she's still kicking up top in the catalysts lair.. choice dependent of course.

They've left just enough wiggle room for Shep to 'carry on' even if in ledgend, like old viking leaders.

they had thralls you know..

[crimzontearz]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Whereas Shepard is literally alive and breathes.

Yes, he is alive in the moment we see him ("him" meaning a torso in some rubble). Given the state Shep was in before he met the Starchild and what happens with the Citadel and considering the situation outside the Citadel I just don't see how he's supposed to survive. At all. But okay, the problem is just my lacking imagination and my secret wish to see the character I played over 100 hours to die miserably and alone. Let me work on that...


...yeah, okay I'm ready. He was alive when I last saw him, therefore he lives happily ever after. It's clear, it's logical, I get it now. My new canon ending:

Shepard spends the rest of his days in Australia, sipping drinks with Butch and Sundance.

How many times do I have to repeat this to people? Everyone's got conspiracy caps on here.

There is no point in puting that scene in there if he's supposed to be dead. That would make no sense.

then there is no sense in going on record saying it is up for interpretation especially when it pisees people off

oh wait

No there isn't. But there isn't any other logical way to interpret it from a story perspective.

Let's think about this:


All the other endings just end with the ship flying off. Shepard is clearly dead.
High EMS Destroy has Shepard's name NOT being put on the memorial wall, and him breathing in the very last shot.

Now think: WHY would that be put in there if he is indeed supposed to DIE?
It does not make sense to show him to breathe - meaning he's alive - and then have him die immediately afterward but not show it.

The reason it is shown in the last shot is because it is supposed to be a surprise because you assume until that moment that Shepard is dead and then - surprise! He's not!

THAT makes sense.

you mean like...surprise Lelianna is not really dead? I am sorry at this point I really do not trust them and without you shutting off your brain and ignoring the context and listen just to author intent all signs point to the fact he would not survive

I again ask you why the scene would be included if he were dead like in every other ending?

the desire to half arsedly NOT ****** even more people off

if that is the case again I ask you why not flat out say it?

Because they flat out won't say ANYTHING about what happens in th endings at all, either because they realized they ****ed up and don't want to admit they don't know what they're talking about, or because they honestly think by making everyone consantly debate about what's happening that it means the endings are good.

We've determined the breath scene means he's alive by logic. Unlike, say, "how does synthesis even work?", we can easily logically deduce the meaning of the breath scene, because it's the only thing that makes sense.

Like TheRealJayDee said, they're either telling you he's alive or trolling you. The latter doesn't make sense, so we go with the former.

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

[InvincibleHero]

crimzontearz wrote...

ssssssssoooooooooooooo much wrong here.

if the idea is to make a game replayable then not just metagamers would notice the similarities but anyone who made a second playthrough to make different choices

furthermore about the bolded part. Sure, they may have (I would love a direct quote tho) but they did fail as my experience was completely ruined when they told me to start headcanoning the survival of my own character

So if you are an actual roleplayer it would be a unique experience to that character the same as if a game had only one ending. It is new to him/her but not the gamer.

Otherwise, why even play the game again if you cannot divorce yourself from the re-experience of the same things. You should be up in arms hey Tali says the same things and I can only do Rannoch the same ways but no only the endings you disagree with cause the ire because you wanted something else in its place.

[Wayning_Star]

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

[/quote]
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish[/quote]

I'm thinking this is a matter of the interactive part vs the printed books version.

[crimzontearz]

InvincibleHero wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ssssssssoooooooooooooo much wrong here.

if the idea is to make a game replayable then not just metagamers would notice the similarities but anyone who made a second playthrough to make different choices

furthermore about the bolded part. Sure, they may have (I would love a direct quote tho) but they did fail as my experience was completely ruined when they told me to start headcanoning the survival of my own character

So if you are an actual roleplayer it would be a unique experience to that character the same as if a game had only one ending. It is new to him/her but not the gamer.

Otherwise, why even play the game again if you cannot divorce yourself from the re-experience of the same things. You should be up in arms hey Tali says the same things and I can only do Rannoch the same ways but no only the endings you disagree with cause the ire because you wanted something else in its place.

oh no no I was talking about him saying only metagamers would notice the similarities

[Legion of 1337]

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

Modifié par Legion of 1337, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .

[Iakus]

Kais Endac wrote...

It's kinda funny really since some older rpgs had endings in which the pc's survial is not guaranteed (NWN2 is the only one I can think of off hand and to falling rubble no less) but I never complained. But then again they never had the level of emotional investment that the Mass Effect series had. Heck if it had happened in NWN or even FF7 (aerith's death still makes me cry tho) I would have just gone oh well and moved on.

NWN2 took a lot of flak for that ending, and it's first expansion, Mask of th Betrayercleared what happened up.

[diggisaur]

Personally I liked the Red Dead Redemption ending. Then you get to play Marston's son in the epilogue and take revenge on those responsible; gun them down where they stand.

[InvincibleHero]

crimzontearz wrote...

oh no no I was talking about him saying only metagamers would notice the similarities

Oh cool. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Well I notice most things in all games are the same when I replay with a different class, race or even morality if it is present.

[Wayning_Star]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

you don't realize, you are trying to get something from nothing. The game, nor bioware will venture to guess at the official canon, or even if Shep actually lives in the breath scene. It's not trolling, its more about the limitation of user interfaces and story variabilities. 3d was trying to emphasize that earlier with 'soap' references.

[Iakus]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

Just goes to show, showing  it badly can be every bit as bad as not showing it at all

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

snipped

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

I believe it but far be it for me to tell anyone else what to think.  As I said, the feeling of that being Shepard alive is not there.  The scene feels like Shepard is dead, but I do think it's supposed to be Shepard alive.  I've seen people die and would say that points to a gasp in, but dying bodies do odd things (random, muscle movement that looks like they are alive).

It is as I have said, cognitive dissonance.  The explanation for what will happen, is no explanation at all so it's not a real clue as to what will happen (but seems to be BW's way of teasing that Shepard will die).  Then the blast should fry Shepard's organic parts, if not vaporize them.  But, when you are really close to an explosion something else happens that explains the gasp.  All of the air is sucked out of your lungs rapidly.  It's kind of like getting the wind knocked out of you (what we used to call it).  The gasp fits that.  Then, we also have no idea where s/he is, in that rubble.  We have no indication that help is nearby.  And that torso is in a bad way.  All tech has been damaged, all synthetics were targeted, whatever the hell that means-we have no clue what that did to Shepard.

And yes, I'd say it could have been done far better.  It is not closure.  Dying Shepards are seen with the skin burning off of them and so on.  Why not have it in slo mo for the real effect and from every angle so we get the full picture?  The torso, by contrast, gets a gasp. 

For me, it is about Shepard.  It isn't only that his/her friends need to see that s/he is alive, it's that Shepard deserves to see that they are alive, too.  That is what epilogs are for and what is wrong about all of this.  Shepard's head (the back of it) is the first thing you see when the story starts.  Before that you spend time creating the face that works for you.  It would be fitting as the end of Shepard's story, to see that face and really say goodbye-also, to give him/her a chance to live, if that's what was real for your story.

[Kais Endac]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...


I think the length of the reveal is a problem for some as well the scene is perhaps two three seconds of a game that takes about thirty hours to complete, ninety on average if you've played all three. After all that investment where some people have tried to gain the ultimate outcome of each choice, to get a scene where Shep takes one breath and the memorial scene does not live up to expectations. Head canon is a valid solution but people want ot actually see it happen in game as a reward for playing. 

Yes, exactly you do read stories and play games with stories for the payoff, emotional and otherwise.  And we are all different.  I can imagine many things just fine.  I started gaming when many of them were text only adventures, so you had to imagine a lot-and I never liked to draw my own maps to things so I kept everything in my head.  After people waited 5 years in many cases, and played through hundreds of hours in the first 2 games and anticipated some great final confrontation with the reapers (that never came) the least that many wanted was some possible good outcome for Shepard that did make it all seem at least ok.  That torso in rubble doesn't even have a face (though I know it's Shepard).  The gasp is a teaser, not closure.

hmm My first console was a Sega Master System 2 with Alex the Kid I was too young to play the older text based games so I've not encountered that problem, the most trouble I've had was navigating morrowind while dodging cliff racers god bless mark and recall

My first RPG was FF8 then 7&9  finaly I stumbled across KOTOR 2 by Obisidian and then KOTOR and i've followed Bioware ever since. I still play NWN with fan made modules and the like. Yea kinda backwards way to go but it worked the only one i've yet to play are baldur's gate. Now RPG's are my go-to games regardless of the games age,graphics or complexity if it has a good story I will play it 

To be honest the the rubble scene falls more in line with what I would expect from a cliffhanger ending to a middle game than the finale.

Edit: I know shep lives I just dislike how it was revealed and how long the clip was personally I would have liked a longer scene but again this is only my opinion and I realise it was probably left ambiguous for a reason (maybe to please the pessimists among us who take the scene to be shepards last breath)

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:06 .

[Legion of 1337]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

you don't realize, you are trying to get something from nothing. The game, nor bioware will venture to guess at the official canon, or even if Shep actually lives in the breath scene. It's not trolling, its more about the limitation of user interfaces and story variabilities. 3d was trying to emphasize that earlier with 'soap' references.

There's not "nothing" - we have a scene that serves no purpose if Shepard does not survive. Ergo, we infer that he does. There is no reason NOT to infer this.

None of the endings are canon anyway, at least until ME4 comes out. Which I really hope it doesn't.

[crimzontearz]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

I don't ....at this point after all they did....I do not put it past them

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

Just goes to show, showing  it badly can be every bit as bad as not showing it at all

I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter. But if bioware were to propose to fans what their canon might actually be, it wouldn't be Shep in that pile of rubble.. (VG's and consoles would be my guess..)

[Legion of 1337]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

snipped

@3DandBeyond

So we can all agree that he IS alive, you just think the scene should have been done better.

I believe it but far be it for me to tell anyone else what to think.  As I said, the feeling of that being Shepard alive is not there.  The scene feels like Shepard is dead, but I do think it's supposed to be Shepard alive.  I've seen people die and would say that points to a gasp in, but dying bodies do odd things (random, muscle movement that looks like they are alive).

It is as I have said, cognitive dissonance.  The explanation for what will happen, is no explanation at all so it's not a real clue as to what will happen (but seems to be BW's way of teasing that Shepard will die).  Then the blast should fry Shepard's organic parts, if not vaporize them.  But, when you are really close to an explosion something else happens that explains the gasp.  All of the air is sucked out of your lungs rapidly.  It's kind of like getting the wind knocked out of you (what we used to call it).  The gasp fits that.  Then, we also have no idea where s/he is, in that rubble.  We have no indication that help is nearby.  And that torso is in a bad way.  All tech has been damaged, all synthetics were targeted, whatever the hell that means-we have no clue what that did to Shepard.

And yes, I'd say it could have been done far better.  It is not closure.  Dying Shepards are seen with the skin burning off of them and so on.  Why not have it in slo mo for the real effect and from every angle so we get the full picture?  The torso, by contrast, gets a gasp. 

For me, it is about Shepard.  It isn't only that his/her friends need to see that s/he is alive, it's that Shepard deserves to see that they are alive, too.  That is what epilogs are for and what is wrong about all of this.  Shepard's head (the back of it) is the first thing you see when the story starts.  Before that you spend time creating the face that works for you.  It would be fitting as the end of Shepard's story, to see that face and really say goodbye-also, to give him/her a chance to live, if that's what was real for your story.

What I am seeing here is basically what a lot of people think: there is no emotional closure with the characters that everyone is so attached to. This is a result of a conundrum Bioware created: they gave us a character heavy story, with NPCs we actually cared about. The plot didn't matter so much (if it did, ME2 would not be so well praised), though in ME1 it was quite good. However, in ME3's ending the focus switches to the plot and sets the characters to the side. Since the plot wasn't really meaty and all too gripping enough to keep things going along without the characters, this makes the ending unfillfilling emotionally because it's the characters we care about, not the plot. This could have been fixed with a more extended and complex farewell in Prioirty Earth, or with actual cutscenes in place of th estupid slideshow. This was not done, of course.