291 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

you don't realize, you are trying to get something from nothing. The game, nor bioware will venture to guess at the official canon, or even if Shep actually lives in the breath scene. It's not trolling, its more about the limitation of user interfaces and story variabilities. 3d was trying to emphasize that earlier with 'soap' references.

There's not "nothing" - we have a scene that serves no purpose if Shepard does not survive. Ergo, we infer that he does. There is no reason NOT to infer this.

None of the endings are canon anyway, at least until ME4 comes out. Which I really hope it doesn't.

I chose a canon ending for my games, but then the other choices are harder for me to accept as such. But as stated before, the writers cannot officially proclaim one, even in and/or for ME4. The breath scene makes for a canon breaker is what the contention seems to infer, for destroy?

[Legion of 1337]

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

I don't ....at this point after all they did....I do not put it past them

Hm. Well, that I can't help you with. We'll never know what they were really thinking, but I don't know what purpose trolling your audience like that would serve - they were trying to fix it after all. I don't think they have any kind of spiteful or malicious intent towards us, they simply honestly thought what they were doing was a good idea.

[Iakus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

iakus wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

Just goes to show, showing  it badly can be every bit as bad as not showing it at all

I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter. But if bioware were to propose to fans what their canon might actually be, it wouldn't be Shep in that pile of rubble.. (VG's and consoles would be my guess..)

Oh I sure it would matter.  Would peple complain about Shepard's survival if we saw him climbing out of the rubble like in ME1?  Or a daring last moment  leap onto the Normandy like in ME2?  Heck look at MEHEM, how much people like seeing SHepard at the memorial putting Anderson's name on the wall.

People might complain about other things, like the genocide of synthetics, but Shepard's survival at least in Red, would not be an issue.

[crimzontearz]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

I don't ....at this point after all they did....I do not put it past them

Hm. Well, that I can't help you with. We'll never know what they were really thinking, but I don't know what purpose trolling your audience like that would serve - they were trying to fix it after all. I don't think they have any kind of spiteful or malicious intent towards us, they simply honestly thought what they were doing was a good idea.

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

[Legion of 1337]

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

I don't ....at this point after all they did....I do not put it past them

Hm. Well, that I can't help you with. We'll never know what they were really thinking, but I don't know what purpose trolling your audience like that would serve - they were trying to fix it after all. I don't think they have any kind of spiteful or malicious intent towards us, they simply honestly thought what they were doing was a good idea.

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

I simply think they're stupid rather than evil.

[TheRealJayDee]

crimzontearz wrote...

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

Sales? But yeah, I will never understand people lying or being misleading when it is obvious and inevitable that people will notice, especially if they plan to do business with them in the future. Just seems stupid.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:22 .

[3DandBeyond]

Kais Endac wrote...



hmm My first console was a Sega Master System 2 with Alex the Kid I was too young to play the older text based games so I've not encountered that problem, the most trouble I've had was navigating morrowind while dodging cliff racers god bless mark and recall

My first RPG was FF8 then 7&9  finaly I stumbled across KOTOR 2 by Obisidian and then KOTOR and i've followed Bioware ever since. I still play NWN with fan made modules and the like. Yea kinda backwards way to go but it worked the only one i've yet to play are baldur's gate. Now RPG's are my go-to games regardless of the games age,graphics or complexity if it has a good story I will play it 

To be honest the the rubble scene falls more in line with what I would expect from a cliffhanger ending to a middle game than the finale.

Edit: I know shep lives I just dislike how it was revealed and how long the clip was personally I would have liked a longer scene but again this is only my opinion and I realise it was probably left ambiguous for a reason (maybe to please the pessimists among us who take the scene to be shepards last breath)

The point about text adventures (primarily Infocom Games, like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Zork, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, A Mind Forever Voyaging, and so on), was to point out that yes people can imagine things.  But, graphics were created for a reason-to show you things.  Saying we should have to imagine an ending that we may even agree is what is meant, is like telling people to sell their tvs and go back to listening to the radio for their entertainment (radio also had shows on them like Soap Operas and detective shows and the like).

I think the way it was handled was more appropriate for a middle game-you hit it right on the head.  It's why so many people think ME4 will show what comes next.  A living Shepard as yet has no closure.

[chemiclord]

There are a lot of seemingly "rushed" things in ME3, and the breath scene is one of them.

I think Bioware's intent was for Shepard to die in every ending. But someone within the team convinced them at damn near zero hour that there would be a righteous hellfire from the fanbase, and they quick squeezed in this bare minimum segment that showed s/he lived through it all... and nothing else.

It would explain why it's detached from all common sense, as well as why is has practically no identifying marks, nor fits into any of the "aftermath." I do believe it was literally thrown in at the last minute in a desperate attempt to quell fan rage.

Personally, they would have been better off having him/her die in all options rather than throw that out there.

Modifié par chemiclord, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[crimzontearz]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

I don't ....at this point after all they did....I do not put it past them

Hm. Well, that I can't help you with. We'll never know what they were really thinking, but I don't know what purpose trolling your audience like that would serve - they were trying to fix it after all. I don't think they have any kind of spiteful or malicious intent towards us, they simply honestly thought what they were doing was a good idea.

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

I simply think they're stupid rather than evil.

I never said they were evil....just that given the circumstances and all that was done before I would not put it past them

[HiddenInWar]

Welp *cracks knuckles* time to read every page of this thread.

[Legion of 1337]

chemiclord wrote...

There are a lot of seemingly "rushed" things in ME3, and the breath scene is one of them.

I think Bioware's intent was for Shepard to die in every ending. But someone within the team convinced them at damn near zero hour that there would be a righteous hellfire from the fanbase, and they quick squeezed in this bare minimum segment that showed s/he lived through it all... and nothing else.

It would explain why it's detached from all common sense, as well as why is has practically no identifying marks, nor fits into any of the "aftermath." I do believe it was literally thrown in at the last minute in a desperate attempt to quell fan rage.

Personally, they would have been better off having him/her die in all options rather than throw that out there.

The "rushed" stuff is EA's fault. They have their release dates and they will not sacrifice short-term profits for better quality.

[Wayning_Star]

iakus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

iakus wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
no we did not....we determined that is author intent and that he is alive at THAT moment....no more

anything else is headcanoning storytelling as opposed to player agency thus it is foolish

Ah but, as I've said, since there is no other explanation for its inclusion we CAN safely assume his survival. Otherwise, what is it? Bioware trolling us? I know people would say yes but I find that hard tobelieve.

Just goes to show, showing  it badly can be every bit as bad as not showing it at all

I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't matter. But if bioware were to propose to fans what their canon might actually be, it wouldn't be Shep in that pile of rubble.. (VG's and consoles would be my guess..)

Oh I sure it would matter.  Would peple complain about Shepard's survival if we saw him climbing out of the rubble like in ME1?  Or a daring last moment  leap onto the Normandy like in ME2?  Heck look at MEHEM, how much people like seeing SHepard at the memorial putting Anderson's name on the wall.

People might complain about other things, like the genocide of synthetics, but Shepard's survival at least in Red, would not be an issue.

There is nothing to be said of it to explain the necessity of the game/story canon. Games have rules, we either play them that way or we refuse to play them at all. Players just don't like the fate of the MEU, Shepards especially. But, I'm of the impression,it won't change, mainly because it cannot.

[3DandBeyond]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

Sales? But yeah, I will never understand people lying or being misleading when it is obvious and inevitable that people will notice, especially if they plan to do business with them in the future. Just seems stupid.

Well, I guess you have only to look at this forum and the industry in which they work.  J. K. Rowling would not have been able to get away with doing anything like this.  But, considering that even people that didn't love the endings are willing to let it all slide and don't think they did anything wrong, BW played the odds.  I will say again it has more to do with their preferred demographics and even the medium involved. 

The usual videogamer might complain a lot (and devs and business people all expect a certain level of unhappiness), but will not tend to push the issue and will just give the game away or try to sell it on ebay or to Game Stop.  Gamers don't usually try to return games and mostly retailers won't take them back once they've been opened.  This should be a wake up call for gamers to act as consumers.  But, there is no real voice in the industry that seeks to be impartial and really examine what devs do.  Instead you get IGN and Game Informer and all the rest that make money at the very least from game ads.  IGN and Game Informer also sell games (make some direct money from their sales).  You can't have an impartial look at all this if there is no impartial "reporting" on it.

But again just look here at the BSN and a heck of a lot of people don't think pre-release hype matters at all.  They choose to ignore it so they don't believe it should be treated as false advertising.  I believe at the very least it should be treated as a promise, and I take those seriously.  Some people spent their entertainment budget for the year on ME3 and DLC (seriously, because some people don't have a lot of money).  And they couldn't return it, and ME was their favorite game series of all time.  And BW pooped on that.

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did[/quote]

Sales? But yeah, I will never understand people lying or being misleading when it is obvious and inevitable that people will notice, especially if they plan to do business with them in the future. Just seems stupid.[/quote]

Well, I guess you have only to look at this forum and the industry in which they work.  J. K. Rowling would not have been able to get away with doing anything like this.  But, considering that even people that didn't love the endings are willing to let it all slide and don't think they did anything wrong, BW played the odds.  I will say again it has more to do with their preferred demographics and even the medium involved. 

The usual videogamer might complain a lot (and devs and business people all expect a certain level of unhappiness), but will not tend to push the issue and will just give the game away or try to sell it on ebay or to Game Stop.  Gamers don't usually try to return games and mostly retailers won't take them back once they've been opened.  This should be a wake up call for gamers to act as consumers.  But, there is no real voice in the industry that seeks to be impartial and really examine what devs do.  Instead you get IGN and Game Informer and all the rest that make money at the very least from game ads.  IGN and Game Informer also sell games (make some direct money from their sales).  You can't have an impartial look at all this if there is no impartial "reporting" on it.

But again just look here at the BSN and a heck of a lot of people don't think pre-release hype matters at all.  They choose to ignore it so they don't believe it should be treated as false advertising.  I believe at the very least it should be treated as a promise, and I take those seriously.  Some people spent their entertainment budget for the year on ME3 and DLC (seriously, because some people don't have a lot of money).  And they couldn't return it, and ME was their favorite game series of all time.  And BW pooped on that.

[/quote]

there is NO case there on those grounds as there cannot be a warrentee on hypothetical ideals. Ideals, yes, not theories of some distant star reality. Probably why they call it fiction.. maybe if we used some Eezo and designed a better mouse trap, then we have something.. tangable. (maybe)

we could just drag them out of jail and...well.. never mind. tar and feathers are just too good for'em..lol

[Legion of 1337]

3DandBeyond wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

what would be the sense of lying to your customers? none right....and yet they did

Sales? But yeah, I will never understand people lying or being misleading when it is obvious and inevitable that people will notice, especially if they plan to do business with them in the future. Just seems stupid.

Well, I guess you have only to look at this forum and the industry in which they work.  J. K. Rowling would not have been able to get away with doing anything like this.  But, considering that even people that didn't love the endings are willing to let it all slide and don't think they did anything wrong, BW played the odds.  I will say again it has more to do with their preferred demographics and even the medium involved. 

The usual videogamer might complain a lot (and devs and business people all expect a certain level of unhappiness), but will not tend to push the issue and will just give the game away or try to sell it on ebay or to Game Stop.  Gamers don't usually try to return games and mostly retailers won't take them back once they've been opened.  This should be a wake up call for gamers to act as consumers.  But, there is no real voice in the industry that seeks to be impartial and really examine what devs do.  Instead you get IGN and Game Informer and all the rest that make money at the very least from game ads.  IGN and Game Informer also sell games (make some direct money from their sales).  You can't have an impartial look at all this if there is no impartial "reporting" on it.

But again just look here at the BSN and a heck of a lot of people don't think pre-release hype matters at all.  They choose to ignore it so they don't believe it should be treated as false advertising.  I believe at the very least it should be treated as a promise, and I take those seriously.  Some people spent their entertainment budget for the year on ME3 and DLC (seriously, because some people don't have a lot of money).  And they couldn't return it, and ME was their favorite game series of all time.  And BW pooped on that.

I think that people's emotional investment in ME's characters has prevented them from thinking critically and simply saying "yep, this is another stupid sci-fi ending" - of which, you will note, there are many, plauging sci-fi throughout history -  an dsimply getting over it. We are SO in love with ME that when the plot gets ****ty we can't just go "yep, it's dumb" and move on like we do with most fiction.

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

The "rushed" stuff is EA's fault. They have their release dates and they will not sacrifice short-term profits for better quality.

We can think that, but we don't know that.  And then who is responsible for the extensive lists of things that the devs said in pre-release interviews and so on?  Did EA force them to say things that would not be truthful?  Did EA force them to retcon things on twitter, or to say things in pre-release interviews that they then tried to say was just something fans didn't understand? 

I can blame EA for Day One DLC (they have said they like it because it gets people to spend maybe as much as $20 more for the game on Day One-especially completionists).  I can blame them for MP and the original need to play it to get the gasp ending-because they said all EA games will contain MP from now on, and they also love micro-transactions.  I can and do blame EA for a lot of things, but other things are just not known.  And in the interest of actually toning it down a bit, I do consider these are real people (the people in the companies and not the companies themselves).  I don't blame them for being excited about the project or even if they had to change their minds on some things, but I do think all of this should have been handled very differently.  They do also need to remember that we are people too.

[Kais Endac]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The point about text adventures (primarily Infocom Games, like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Zork, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, A Mind Forever Voyaging, and so on), was to point out that yes people can imagine things.  But, graphics were created for a reason-to show you things.  Saying we should have to imagine an ending that we may even agree is what is meant, is like telling people to sell their tvs and go back to listening to the radio for their entertainment (radio also had shows on them like Soap Operas and detective shows and the like).

I think the way it was handled was more appropriate for a middle game-you hit it right on the head.  It's why so many people think ME4 will show what comes next.  A living Shepard as yet has no closure.

The choose your own adventure books are another somewhat limited example (used to love those). I'm affaid to say that the closest I will ever get to text based games are through Sheldon on the big bang theory to be honest its too much hassle to get some of them working.

Anyway I completly agree with your point and to be honest my first thought when I saw the rubble ending was that I paid for a game where I had to imagine my own ending(especially pre-ec where *nothing* was shown to the player), I could have come up with a more satsfiying ending myself and just left out the middle man. Extreme and misguided really after all it's only a game and it was worth the price if only to experience the characters and storyline.

Having said that if these endings had been to a film I would have walked out probably complaining, they were somewhat lackluster and making the audience imagine something like the fate of a main character is a major porblem in my opinion(unless there is a sequel). Yes leave it down to each person to decide if the hero rides off into the sunset with the heroine. But establish the surivial and show it in a way that gives closure or simply kill the character

Personally I watch, read or play media to experience the story (and usually as a feel good exercise) and while I may sometimes imagine what happens after the end I prefer it if concrete closure is shown beforehand. This is just my preference though and to be realistic was never a possibility given the scope of ME and I knew this would happen right from when the leaked script came out. 

Edit: I should note that while my posts usually end like this I try to see this from both perspectives and I know that the devs are hardworking people that while they are out to make money Bioware do try to please the fanbase including many extras and fixing perceived problems in their games. Bioware make brilliant games and my enjoyment of their games is only slightly dampened by the ending.

Sadly my imagination is not what it was possibly a response to modern gaming  (maybe I should try and recapture my childhood with lego after all it stimulates the imagination lol) anyway I prefer to see things happen than use my imagination 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I think that people's emotional investment in ME's characters has prevented them from thinking critically and simply saying "yep, this is another stupid sci-fi ending" - of which, you will note, there are many, plauging sci-fi throughout history -  an dsimply getting over it. We are SO in love with ME that when the plot gets ****ty we can't just go "yep, it's dumb" and move on like we do with most fiction.

That's true.  The problem is, most other games don't rely so much on your choice (the self-satisfied linear ones), nor do they create a story that matters quite so much (character-based and story heavy).  Most just kind of run forward and you tend to just go from checkpoint to checkpoint.  But the game plays itself as much as you play it.

ME already was what BW wanted ME3 to be-a breakout game that kind of set new trends for gaming and for the genre.  All they had to do with ME3 was end it.  Sure, there'd be complaints if all we had gotten was something like the suicide mission on steroids, but it would have felt and played like an epic ending.  At the end of ME3, you have again a game that is playing itself and not one you are playing.  Every now and again, you hit a button to ask a question, but a lot of the questions are not the ones I wanted answers to.

I've even said that these endings would have worked far better if they were just consequences and not choices-side with TIM on things and set off the crucible and you would get different versions of Control.  The AI could merely have been a VI explaining what will happen OR it could have even been an AI that is trying to stop you-think of Harbinger trying to stop Shepard from destroying the reapers.

I think the saddest thing is the wasted potential.  I love the choices (the pre-glowboy ones) and without a doubt loved the characters, including Harby and Sovereign.  The kid, real and glowy, not one bit.  I do want such games to exist, but not if the company that makes them cannot find a way to finish them that fits all the different types of protagonist that can be created.  What I mean is if they want you to kill friends at the end, then don't create dialogue that says "I'd never kill my friends to help you"-not real dialogue but a quick explanation of what I mean.

[chemiclord]

Legion of 1337 wrote...
I think that people's emotional investment in ME's characters has prevented them from thinking critically and simply saying "yep, this is another stupid sci-fi ending" - of which, you will note, there are many, plauging sci-fi throughout history -  an dsimply getting over it. We are SO in love with ME that when the plot gets ****ty we can't just go "yep, it's dumb" and move on like we do with most fiction.

Emotional investment is a double edged sword.  On one hand, it's what makes a series possible.  Without that almost rabid support, publishers rarely have the interest in a sequel or a trilogy.  I would LOVE one day to have a fanbase as powerfully drawn to my work as Bioware has (and make no mistake, they still do, you don't have this rage even now if they didn't).

But even then, as much as I want it... I also know that one day, the other edge will show, and they will be rabidly furious and disappointed in something I do.  It's pretty much guaranteed it WILL happen once that fanbase forms... because they WILL get ideas as to how you should do your job, and it WILL at some point run contrary to what you want to do.

At that point, you have to make a choice whether to give the fans what they want, or tell them to kiss off and risk losing that support.  Neither decision is inherently wrong, and depends on what you think is more important, the message or the money, nor is either one particularly damning.  

The collective memory of society is short... you can win them back with your next offering just as easily as catering to them can blow up in your face.  At the same time, you can provide what fans what and later on they can forgive you future deviations from their expectations because "you're good for it."

What you CAN'T do is what Bioware did... stick to the message yet say, "Keep buying our stuff, plox."  That ruins good will and respect.  

[3DandBeyond]

Kais Endac wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The point about text adventures (primarily Infocom Games, like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Zork, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, A Mind Forever Voyaging, and so on), was to point out that yes people can imagine things.  But, graphics were created for a reason-to show you things.  Saying we should have to imagine an ending that we may even agree is what is meant, is like telling people to sell their tvs and go back to listening to the radio for their entertainment (radio also had shows on them like Soap Operas and detective shows and the like).

I think the way it was handled was more appropriate for a middle game-you hit it right on the head.  It's why so many people think ME4 will show what comes next.  A living Shepard as yet has no closure.

The choose your own adventure books are another somewhat limited example (used to love those). I'm affaid to say that the closest I will ever get to text based games are through Sheldon on the big bang theory to be honest its too much hassle to get some of them working.

Anyway I completly agree with your point and to be honest my first thought when I saw the rubble ending was that I paid for a game where I had to imagine my own ending(especially pre-ec where *nothing* was shown to the player), I could have come up with a more satsfiying ending myself and just left out the middle man. Extreme and misguided really after all it's only a game and it was worth the price if only to experience the characters and storyline.

Having said that if these endings had been to a film I would have walked out probably complaining, they were somewhat lackluster and making the audience imagine something like the fate of a main character is a major porblem in my opinion(unless there is a sequel). Yes leave it down to each person to decide if the hero rides off into the sunset with the heroine. But establish the surivial and show it in a way that gives closure or simply kill the character

Personally I watch, read or play media to experience the story (and usually as a feel good exercise) and while I may sometimes imagine what happens after the end I prefer it if concrete closure is shown beforehand. This is just my preference though and to be realistic was never a possibility given the scope of ME and I knew this would happen right from when the leaked script came out. 

I agree with all that you said here.  I can imagine things just fine, but I want to be brought to a certain point of closure.  I don't like cliffhanger endings and particularly not in the final part of the final story in a series of stories.

[Wayning_Star]

Kais Endac wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The point about text adventures (primarily Infocom Games, like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Zork, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, A Mind Forever Voyaging, and so on), was to point out that yes people can imagine things.  But, graphics were created for a reason-to show you things.  Saying we should have to imagine an ending that we may even agree is what is meant, is like telling people to sell their tvs and go back to listening to the radio for their entertainment (radio also had shows on them like Soap Operas and detective shows and the like).

I think the way it was handled was more appropriate for a middle game-you hit it right on the head.  It's why so many people think ME4 will show what comes next.  A living Shepard as yet has no closure.

The choose your own adventure books are another somewhat limited example (used to love those). I'm affaid to say that the closest I will ever get to text based games are through Sheldon on the big bang theory to be honest its too much hassle to get some of them working.

Anyway I completly agree with your point and to be honest my first thought when I saw the rubble ending was that I paid for a game where I had to imagine my own ending(especially pre-ec where *nothing* was shown to the player), I could have come up with a more satsfiying ending myself and just left out the middle man. Extreme and misguided really after all it's only a game and it was worth the price if only to experience the characters and storyline.

Having said that if these endings had been to a film I would have walked out probably complaining, they were somewhat lackluster and making the audience imagine something like the fate of a main character is a major porblem in my opinion(unless there is a sequel). Yes leave it down to each person to decide if the hero rides off into the sunset with the heroine. But establish the surivial and show it in a way that gives closure or simply kill the character

Personally I watch, read or play media to experience the story (and usually as a feel good exercise) and while I may sometimes imagine what happens after the end I prefer it if concrete closure is shown beforehand. This is just my preference though and to be realistic was never a possibility given the scope of ME and I knew this would happen right from when the leaked script came out. 

we can't compare them that way tho, as interactivity has immersed players to the point of intamacy. I think, when reading posts about this stuff. Fans use every trick in the book to try and explain why the story is mottled. When in fact it's the manner of their involvement(and story thematic thrusts) steering the way to disappointement when their 'ideal' concept is rattled by the story finality.

If you jump into a water slide thinking that the nice pool water will catch you, end up near to the niagra falls, just as you slip out of the end..

Maybe bioware made the ending just a bit too much of a surprise, I dunno, I liked it tho myself. I didn't care about the popular polls etc. But even that leads back to the official version of canon..and back to the cycle of BSN chaos.

[Kais Endac]

Wayning_Star wrote...


we can't compare them that way tho, as interactivity has immersed players to the point of intamacy. I think, when reading posts about this stuff. Fans use every trick in the book to try and explain why the story is mottled. When in fact it's the manner of their involvement(and story thematic thrusts) steering the way to disappointement when their 'ideal' concept is rattled by the story finality.

If you jump into a water slide thinking that the nice pool water will catch you, end up near to the niagra falls, just as you slip out of the end..

Maybe bioware made the ending just a bit too much of a surprise, I dunno, I liked it tho myself. I didn't care about the popular polls etc. But even that leads back to the official version of canon..and back to the cycle of BSN chaos.

True, player investment and immersion is a large factor in some fans problems with the ending my own included through the last six years or however long it's been out (edit: wikied it Nov 2007 brings back memories of university lol), ideal endings have been thought up by many esp those liara fans who want their blue children bioware could never compete with these endings. As I've said I only really dislike the nature of the shepard lives scene for the time and investment i would have like more than the short clip but I am happy that my shepard lives it just lacks the closure that actually showing him being recovered shows.

In my opinion those polls are useless some like the endings others don't it was not universally dispised and I think that actually made things worse with the constant shouting matches between pro and anti that usually disends into insults. Bioware made the right choice though they stuck to their vision and tried to correct the concerns without compromising their universe. I liked ME because it was Bioware's universe (not the result of the mishmash ideas that fans sometimes demand) and while I dislike the course of the destory ending I stil like the game. 

Edit: There is one thing I love about the endings the Morailty of each choice. 

Control: potentially bad if AI shep eventaully comes to the same conclusion as the catalyst the cycle will restart and most importantly power currupts he may be an AI now but the possibility is still there.

Synthesis: Forces change of the galaxy whether they want it or not

Destroy: Genocide of one sentient race and killing a potential friend to stop the reapers

Each choice is of a questionable morality and......... does the end justify the means.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[Renmiri1]

chemiclord wrote...

There are a lot of seemingly "rushed" things in ME3, and the breath scene is one of them.

I think Bioware's intent was for Shepard to die in every ending. But someone within the team convinced them at damn near zero hour that there would be a righteous hellfire from the fanbase, and they quick squeezed in this bare minimum segment that showed s/he lived through it all... and nothing else.

It would explain why it's detached from all common sense, as well as why is has practically no identifying marks, nor fits into any of the "aftermath." I do believe it was literally thrown in at the last minute in a desperate attempt to quell fan rage.

Personally, they would have been better off having him/her die in all options rather than throw that out there.

I suspect the same happened with Tali's picture. Some poor soul thought it was absurd to not have anything to show Tali's face on the end chapter of the series and put that in there at the last minute. Which was a very pretty picture but it was obvious that no time had been spent on it.  

[crimzontearz]

Renmiri1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

There are a lot of seemingly "rushed" things in ME3, and the breath scene is one of them.

I think Bioware's intent was for Shepard to die in every ending. But someone within the team convinced them at damn near zero hour that there would be a righteous hellfire from the fanbase, and they quick squeezed in this bare minimum segment that showed s/he lived through it all... and nothing else.

It would explain why it's detached from all common sense, as well as why is has practically no identifying marks, nor fits into any of the "aftermath." I do believe it was literally thrown in at the last minute in a desperate attempt to quell fan rage.

Personally, they would have been better off having him/her die in all options rather than throw that out there.

I suspect the same happened with Tali's picture. Some poor soul thought it was absurd to not have anything to show Tali's face on the end chapter of the series and put that in there at the last minute. Which was a very pretty picture but it was obvious that no time had been spent on it.  

that does not explain why it was NOT fixed with the EC tho

[Dragoonlordz]

Kais Endac wrote...

-snip-

Edit: There is one thing I love about the endings the Morailty of each choice.

The choices are morally difficult and thats what makes them good choices to me. Some people would prefer not having to make that choice and having it decided by events prior but I prefer in this case the player is put on the spot and has to make that choice, has to challenge his or her morality and make a hard choice that requires sacrifice (whether races, worlds or companions even self which must be a sacrifice of his or her doing/choice not what would of occured regardless) and it will never ever be sunshine and rainbows choices when in a galactic scale war. Shepard overcame the odds in the end, but did so in a morally difficult way which is good. To me though refuse is placing his or her morality, ego even above both the lives of every other living entity in the galaxy and their desire to live even through compromise most of the galaxy would of chosen but were never given that chance because Shepard chose to kill them in defiance all through his or her unwillingness to compromise his or her morality.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:56 .