291 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 
Someone went and pulled out the thesaurus. An effort to intimidate, perhaps?

Huh?

Modifié par iakus, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:22 .

[David7204]

It's not often you see words like "sacrosanct" here.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

It's not often you see words like "sacrosanct" here.

Yeah well, read enough fantasy novels your vocabulary grows in the exotic word department, I guess.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

I'm going to regret this.  But fine.  One more post.

The point isn't if you're in the  minority.  Or me.  The point is after EC, the scene became available for far, far more fans.  Who also saw how awful it is.  the "last breath" wasn't just trolling me or "my kind' it trolled everyone who experienced EC at that point.  

No, it's not the bare minimum, it's not enough.  Full stop.  There is no catharsis, no sense of finality, or triumph.  It is what it is:  a broken faceless body gasping in rubble.   The fans deserve more.

And yes, I truly think you believe writers are sacrosanct.  Emotive?  maybe.  Irrational.  Not from where I'm standing.  I've seen you take offense at ending mods because you see them as perverting the author's intent.  You think the story is untouchable.  You see RPGs as a novel to be read as is. With the players having no voice.

 I, otoh. see it as a tabletop game, where the story is shaped through actions and reactions.  Choices and consequences.  There issn't just one Mass Effect 3 story.  There is (or should be hundreds, thaousands even.  Sadly the writers proved extremely reluctant to allow any kind of variation on Shepard's fate.

Yeah... except for the part that I find 90% of the ending to be a bunch of jumbled garbage... yeah... writers can do no wrong.

You have every right to say something is garbage.  That is solely a matter of opinion and cannot be debated.  What I do not believe in is fans thinking they a right to tell creators how to tell their stories.  They don't have to listen to you.  If they don't agree with your opinion... oh well.  Their story.  Their rules.  Not YOURS.  If you don't like the story being told, you are perfectly free to never support that creator ever again.

As for you seeing ME as a tabletop game, that's entirely why you're disappointed, and why, frankly... you're wrong.  It's just that simple.  You.  Are.  Wrong.  It's NOT a tabletop game.  It never even came CLOSE to a tabletop game.  The disc can't take your playstyle or character direction into account.  The content can't be ad-libbed or improvised as you come up with better ideas as to how "your Shepard" evolves.  You contribute nothing to the story because everything you "think" you did came pre-programmed on that disc.  You aren't roleplaying.  You're reading from a script.

Basically, your expectations were wholly unrealistic, and I can't argue with irrationality.  I think we're done here.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[Lars Honeytoast]

I apologize for not reading through the entire thread, but I just had a single point to make. I'm going to quote IGN, and why I have a problem with this particular paragraph:

For example, if you have invested hundreds of hours into the whole ‘Mass Effect’ trilogy, falling in love with, let’s say Liara, you saved the Rachni, you cured the Genophage, everyone survived, excluding the ones who died because the developers wanted to (all in all, you were a major Paragon), then you should be rewarded with an ending in which Shepard survives, retires to a warm planet living with the partner he/she chose, gets visited by Garrus, Joker, dr. Chakwas, and others, and the whole Galaxy is a better place because of him/her.



Am I the only one who finds this ridiculous? Choosing to spare people, and be that 'paragon" player should never have guaranteed that cheesy, "everything works out" ending. In fact, that would have been absolutely horrible. You should have realistic results of your choices. IGN is trying to promote (with this particular paragraph) the idea that if a game is heavily influenced by choice, it should in the end appeal to the ideals of whatever choices you made throughout the experience.

This is pandering. If your character was selfless throughout the series, wouldn't it make sense for him to not have the most self-fulfilling outcome? It's hypocritical to expect self-fulfillment (for the character, not the player) when you play to be selfless.

That being said, I back the article in that if a series has promised endless variety, they need to make a better effort in creating a sense of that with the endings. I understand what BioWare was trying to go for as the entirety of ME3 being that conclusion. If you think of it that way, it does indeed have endless variety. But the ending of ME3 certainly didn't have that endless variety that people were lead to believe, and I think it would be smart for companies to not promote that idea when it is too impractical to actually accomplish.

[David7204]

If heroism is meaningful, then Paragon choices need to lead to the best outcome.

[chemiclord]

The EC endings, in regards to how different the endings feel, is better. Still not particularly great, but I suspect Bioware is still working on the hope that a minimalist approach will at least not ****** off the majority of people.

Where it fails the most is in a series with its noted characters and their development, to leave players nigh COMPLETELY hanging as to what happens to these characters. I understand WHY they chose not to do so (small groups of people would need about ten bottles of Preparation H for the butthurt that their characters lives didn't play out EXACTLY like they wanted it to)... but again, the minimalist approach doesn't help... instead it satisfies next to no one.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 04:59 .

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

The EC endings, in regards to how different the endings feel, is better. Still not particularly great, but I suspect Bioware is still working on the hope that a minimalist approach will at least not ****** off the majority of people.

Where it fails the most is in a series with its noted characters and their development, to leave players nigh COMPLETELY hanging as to what happens to these characters. I understand WHY they chose not to do so (small groups of people would need about ten bottles of Preparation H for the butthurt that their characters lives didn't play out EXACTLY like they wanted it to)... but again, the minimalist approach doesn't help... instead it satisfies next to no one.

those people would have no problem headcanoning future actions of their Shepards as long as they were CERTAIN there is a future for them

which they are not

Also, I do not believe the scene was bare minimum, it was insufficient........and insulting as it asked me, to listen to author intent, to shut off my brain altogether and ignore the circumstances surrounding it

the following troll followed ALSO by Tuly A not advocating a living shepard anymore was just more insulting.

It was just in bad taste as a weight loss consultant cracking a fat joke in front of customers, a customer service rep would have been fired for that unless that IS Bioware's official stance which apparently IT IS

[chemiclord]

The only goal of the breath scene was to show Shepard was still alive. Which it does. What more exactly did you think you needed there to prove that?

If you want to tell me that you needed more than to see Shepard simply alive, then we could probably have a good discussion on how absolutely putrid Bioware's minimalist approach to this ending was. I think we would strongly disagree on just how much more we needed to see, but I can accept your opinion if that's what you're trying to say.

But at the end of the day, the breath scene sets out to do what it was written to do, which is more than can be said for about 90% of the final scenes.

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

The only goal of the breath scene was to show Shepard was still alive. Which it does. What more exactly did you think you needed there to prove that?

If you want to tell me that you needed more than to see Shepard simply alive, then we could probably have a good discussion on how absolutely putrid Bioware's minimalist approach to this ending was. I think we would strongly disagree on just how much more we needed to see, but I can accept your opinion if that's what you're trying to say.

But at the end of the day, the breath scene sets out to do what it was written to do, which is more than can be said for about 90% of the final scenes.

you assume it was written to show shepard was alive....I am saying it was written, apparently, simply to make us speculate and confirm nothing

[chemiclord]

crimzontearz wrote...
you assume it was written to show shepard was alive....I am saying it was written, apparently, simply to make us speculate and confirm nothing

The name of the file is "shepard-alive" man.  Ackland was certainly trolling those who wanted to be miserable out of displeasure for the ending.  I mean, here's the same guy, on these forums, acknowledging the exact opposite of what he said at the panel.

http://www.dsogaming...epard-lives.jpg

[GreyLycanTrope]

crimzontearz wrote...

you assume it was written to show shepard was alive....I am saying it was written, apparently, simply to make us speculate and confirm nothing

It actually was writen with the intention of showing shepard alive, it's just done so poorly and unconvincingly they had to backtrack and now the offical word is that it's up for interpretation.

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
you assume it was written to show shepard was alive....I am saying it was written, apparently, simply to make us speculate and confirm nothing

The name of the file is "shepard-alive" man.  Ackland was certainly trolling those who wanted to be miserable out of displeasure for the ending.  I mean, here's the same guy, on these forums, acknowledging the exact opposite of what he said at the panel.

http://www.dsogaming...epard-lives.jpg

do you not see that as a sign that he was told to stop advocating that?

[Outsider edge]

Well enough has been said about the endings as is in these last 10 months. But the "Shepard alive" scene is as ambiguous as it gets. Some torse barely recognizable inhales some air and a love interest having a "force-sensitive"connection too that in the extended cut. Either go big or go home. You want too show a Shepard lives ending then show it don't come with this ambiguous nonsense.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 09 janvier 2013 - 02:18 .

[Ishiken]

eduardogranja wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

eduardogranja wrote...

Talking about game endings, ME3, specially with EC, in far from how awful AC3 ending is...

not that far

and yet to me twice as aggravating especially after the "It's up to you" middle finger

and yes it IS a middle finger

At least Bioware let us.. you know... decide what we wanted. Most people consider all the options bad, but it's better than showing 2 options and saying "but forget about that one, you are chosing this"

Would you actually have been upset if firing the Crucible just plainly destroyed the Reapers without killing the Geth and EDI? The endings can vary for the players depending on whether you cured the Genophage and who you left in power or if you achieved peace with the Quarians and the Geth. Depending on your own Paragon and Renegade points, you can infer whether the Human Alliance becomes a bigger voice in galactic politics through being a big bully or a mediator.

[chemiclord]

crimzontearz wrote...

do you not see that as a sign that he was told to stop advocating that?

No, because it makes little logical sense to reach that conclusion.  One off-handed comment that had every sign of trolling to get some dander up doesn't change the (admittedly sparse) evidence to the contrary.  Bioware may have run with it... but it felt to me that they were more giving up trying to convince fans otherwise.  "You want to believe we put in a scene of him breathing to just say 'and then he died?'  Fine.  You go ahead and do that.  We really don't give a **** anymore.  Go be miserable."

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 02:28 .

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

If heroism is meaningful, then Paragon choices need to lead to the best outcome.

Then Mass Effect clearly failed, because going all-renaged in the cure-the-genophage plot yields the highest possible EMS outcome

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

do you not see that as a sign that he was told to stop advocating that?

No, because it makes little logical sense to reach that conclusion.  One off-handed comment that had every sign of trolling to get some dander up doesn't change the (admittedly sparse) evidence to the contrary.  Bioware may have run with it... but it felt to me that they were more giving up trying to convince fans otherwise.  "You want to believe we put in a scene of him breathing to just say 'and then he died?'  Fine.  You go ahead and do that.  We really don't give a **** anymore.  Go be miserable."

remember Jess used to say the same thing......and she stopped.....

that's two of them now

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Or if you listen to the stupid Bioware writer that declared this was Sheppard's last breath, at PAX

Yeah, after months of whining, one Bioware writer decided to be a troll and said, "Fine.  You clowns want to be miserable?  Fine.  He's dead.  Go be miserable."

Umm, EC was released late June.  That comment was at a panel at ComicCon in mid July.

Not months.  Barely weeks, even.

And it was on the same panel where another BW person said the gasp was a beacon of hope or some such thing.  And BW stated in many different places that the gasp was meant to be ambiguous, that it could be either/or.  And they also stated that ambiguity was closure.  It was not just on one panel, but here on the forums, on twitter, on reddit.  Oh, and twitter is the authority for all things ME.

Considering how twitter was also used to crap on fans about all of this stuff, starting with the state of the relays in the original endings, I think it's more the case of BW not wanting to make any decision on things.  They've paralyzed themselves by thinking that nothing is canon is canon.  At some point writers do have to write actual stories and when they create characters that are formed by different choices they create, then the stories must be canon for that type of character.  You can have characters that transform or grow and change their ideas, but they must work for that character.

The whole gasp scene has been used like a chew toy with BW viewing fans like a rabid dog.  It goes together with the wish for a reunion scene.  Had BW merely chosen to make one valid post-gasp scene prior to release, that would now exist and there would be no debate as to what it showed.  There would probably still be debate as to what it should have shown, but that's just because we do all see things differently-we are different people.  That's a great thing.  But as it is now, it's hard to go back and decide how that should play out when you are operating from fear that has caused this paralysis.  At this point, BW has created their own "no win" situation.  If they pick up Shepard out of the rubble, using optional content, there are people that will protest that, even if they will never buy it, never see it.  Tell me that that's rational.  They stated on twitter that they couldn't give everyone a customized ending to that scene.  Well, that makes no sense, because the game is all about it being a customized story.  And there have been suggestions as to how to do it, even minimally.

I still say that it isn't just the gasp scene but the whole thing.  There is no ending that reinforces the idea that unity and all the rest achieved anything except for making a big tinker toy for the glow boy-a great unknown thing that will do some unknown thing whose explanation is offered by a murderous program.  That is canon.


You have only to look at how the mass relays were handled, from ingame codex entries and story lines, to statements about a post-ME3 galaxy just prior to ME3's release, to all that was said about them, and then to what the devs said about them when releasing the EC.  They basically blamed fans for misunderstanding what they had clearly shown and said would happen.  Fans got it right, BW got it wrong-they forgot everything they'd said and expected fans to go along with all the retconning, that they passed off as fans being stupid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 09 janvier 2013 - 02:48 .

[crimzontearz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Or if you listen to the stupid Bioware writer that declared this was Sheppard's last breath, at PAX

Yeah, after months of whining, one Bioware writer decided to be a troll and said, "Fine.  You clowns want to be miserable?  Fine.  He's dead.  Go be miserable."

Umm, EC was released late June.  That comment was at a panel at ComicCon in mid July.

Not months.  Barely weeks, even.

And it was on the same panel where another BW person said the gasp was a beacon of hope or some such thing.  And BW stated in many different places that the gasp was meant to be ambiguous, that it could be either/or.  And they also stated that ambiguity was closure.  It was not just on one panel, but here on the forums, on twitter, on reddit.  Oh, and twitter is the authority for all things ME.

Considering how twitter was also used to crap on fans about all of this stuff, starting with the state of the relays in the original endings, I think it's more the case of BW not wanting to make any decision on things.  They've paralyzed themselves by thinking that nothing is canon is canon.  At some point writers do have to write actual stories and when they create characters that are formed by different choices they create, then the stories must be canon for that type of character.  You can have characters that transform or grow and change their ideas, but they must work for that character.

The whole gasp scene has been used like a chew toy with BW viewing fans like a rabid dog.  It goes together with the wish for a reunion scene.  Had BW merely chosen to make one valid post-gasp scene prior to release, that would now exist and there would be no debate as to what it showed.  There would probably still be debate as to what it should have shown, but that's just because we do all see things differently-we are different people.  That's a great thing.  But as it is now, it's hard to go back and decide how that should play out when you are operating from fear that has caused this paralysis.  At this point, BW has created their own "no win" situation.  If they pick up Shepard out of the rubble, using optional content, there are people that will protest that, even if they will never buy it, never see it.  Tell me that that's rational.  They stated on twitter that they couldn't give everyone a customized ending to that scene.  Well, that makes no sense, because the game is all about it being a customized story.  And there have been suggestions as to how to do it, even minimally.

I still say that it isn't just the gasp scene but the whole thing.  There is no ending that reinforces the idea that unity and all the rest achieved anything except for making a big tinker toy for the glow boy-a great unknown thing that will do some unknown thing whose explanation is offered by a murderous program.  That is canon.


You have only to look at how the mass relays were handled, from ingame codex entries and story lines, to statements about a post-ME3 galaxy just prior to ME3's release, to all that was said about them, and then to what the devs said about them when releasing the EC.  They basically blamed fans for misunderstanding what they had clearly shown and said would happen.  Fans got it right, BW got it wrong-they forgot everything they'd said and expected fans to go along with all the retconning, that they passed off as fans being stupid.

people did not need a customized scene, just the knowledge for CERTAIN that shepard survives!

come on for ****'s sake

remember the ZILLIONS of threads beofre arrival showed up about ME2? "Hey what is your shepard going to do between ME2 and 3?" Bioware never gave us post ending scenes for ME2 and everyone was god damn ****ING peachy with that because we knew all these imaginary possibilities we were dreaming up which are, in an RPG, the product of player agency and not the storytellers decisions, were possibile as our characters were irrefutably ALIVE

all we needed was goddamn closure and the certainty he survives in THAT ending

but no, here is to pissing people off because, apparently, it is good business, artistically sound and just plain ****ING fun

Modifié par crimzontearz, 09 janvier 2013 - 02:53 .

[RocketManSR2]

chemiclord wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
so about the breath scene.............?

Actually an example of Rule #3 to me more than Rule #1.  The only way you interpret the breath scene as anything other than "he's alive" is if you want to be miserable and stick it to Bioware that you are miserable and refuse to be mollified.  

It does the bare minimum, (one of the few elements of the ending that suffice to that low standard, for what its worth).  You could go a BIT further I suppose (show some semblance of him/her being rescued from the rubble), but to go too far beyond that would start pissing off fans (because it's not how "their Shepard" would handle the aftermath) for no reason.

A voiceover of a team finding him would have given me a positive place to begin my headcanon. As the scene is now, I'll put the pieces together. Badly injured, unconscious but breathing, no rescue team, and the Normandy isn't anywhere near the Sol system.

R.I.P. Shepard

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 09 janvier 2013 - 03:00 .

[chemiclord]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

A voiceover of a team finding him would give me a positive place to begin my headcanon. As the scene is now, I'll put the pieces together. Badly injured, unconcious but breathing, no rescue team, and the Normandy isn't anywhere near the Sol system.

R.I.P. Shepard

And this is where I take Bioware's answer.  "You want to be miserable?  Go ahead and be miserable."  I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.

You want to think it's not enough for your personal opinion... that's fine.  But there's no logical reason to decide they put that scene in there to say, "and then he died."  There's not.  If the goal was ambiguity, that scene wouldn't be there at all.  It would have ended with whatever LI you had not putting Shepard's name on the wall.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 03:01 .

[3DandBeyond]

Outsider edge wrote...

Well enough has been said about the endings as is in these last 10 months. But the "Shepard alive" scene is as ambiguous as it gets. Some torse barely recognizable inhales some air and a love interest having a "force-sensitive"connection too that in the extended cut. Either go big or go home. You want too show a Shepard lives ending then show it don't come with this ambiguous nonsense.

Either go big or go home is exactly to the point.  There's something you learn when learning how to write stories.  They are exaggerated events and must be so, to attract attention and to evoke emotion.  That's because the reader or viewer or player must overcome a reasonable sense of disbelief.  So you have to make the story, the actions, big or they don't resonate.  If they force someone to make too many different imaginary connections (overcome too many obstacles) to just plain "feel" them, then they fail.  No one wants to continually watch a story about two people having a minor disagreement over whose car to drive to the store.  So the conflict is big and exaggerated.  It's more exciting and tense if the viewer knows there's a bomb under one car.

At the end of ME3, the game slows to a crawl-right where the excitement should really be building, the tension should be palpable.  And the kid pops up and nausea-you get to talk through to the end.  It'd be ok if there was some type of big debate, a war of wills or ideas, even.  But it's a session of Shepard asking questions and getting half-baked answers and not really questioning them.  Destroy is a real good example of that-the kid uses a lot of words and he actually explains very little.  Who knows what this means?  I know what it's supposed to mean based on slide shows, but still it makes no sense and the kid doesn't say anything that the slides show.  Then, there's that psychic hotline connection the LI or friend has.  Liara, I can understand since that's kind of how it could work if she was the LI or even a friend who'd done the mind probe thing. 

And beyond that, that ending lacked the exaggerated nature that Synthesis and Control had (also that Refuse had).  We get the in your face scenes of Shepard clearly dying in Synthesis and Control, and we get a huge powerful speech in Refuse, that leaves no doubt as to what the main character is willing to do and will do in making a "choice". 

In Destroy, we get a main character that has no idea what is going to happen and then we don't really know what did happen.  Shepard torso has no idea which friends are alive nor do they know whether Shepard is.  That's the ambiguity.  It isn't only about what the player knows, but it is about what the people we cared about in these games, know at the end.  They don't get closure and are forever stuck apart from each other. 

[Wayning_Star]

chemiclord wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

A voiceover of a team finding him would give me a positive place to begin my headcanon. As the scene is now, I'll put the pieces together. Badly injured, unconcious but breathing, no rescue team, and the Normandy isn't anywhere near the Sol system.

R.I.P. Shepard

And this is where I take Bioware's answer.  "You want to be miserable?  Go ahead and be miserable."  I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.

You want to think it's not enough for your personal opinion... that's fine.  But there's no logical reason to decide they put that scene in there to say, "and then he died."  There's not.  If the goal was ambiguity, that scene wouldn't be there at all.  It would have ended with whatever LI you had not putting Shepard's name on the wall.

there's no need to 'control' fans with a patent 'canon' ending or story "line" etched in stone. It would seem if any were actually 'official', the expert detractors would find some (other) traction on the BSN.

[Wayning_Star]

Note to self: "Closure" = canon.

Edit: Maybe...

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 09 janvier 2013 - 03:10 .