111 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Gruntburner wrote...

iakus wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

Why would I ever waste time or money on a game like that?

Because it is a shooter with one of the greatest narratives in the medium that makes a devastating critique against Modern Military shooters.  Central themes include PTSD, the role of player vs. player character, and the need to feel like a hero.  Just because it isn't fun doesn't mean it isn't an absolutely amazing game.

Spec Ops: The Line has to be the single best military shooter I've played in my life. The story was brilliant. The ending was mindnumbing (in a good way) and you suddenly realize everything you did in the past game has a different meaning. That YOU and only you are responsible for the destruction you see around you. That your need to play hero now means that an entire city will die a painful death.

What amazes me most, is how the game shows you the horrors of war, and then creates circumstances when the player is forced to do those actions themselves. For example, when I saw white phosphorus being used on civilians I was disgusted. But then I see Lugo being hanged by rioting civilians, and I open fire on them without thinking twice. In doing so, I become the monster I despised. I see people burning under the effects of white phosphorus. But when it comes to me I don't even think twice before using it. I use it from a distant console like its a videogame (lol) but when I get down there and face the consequences of my actions.. let's just say ME3 and all its supposedly "depressing" endings are rainbow stuff compared to what you do in this game and what happens to you in the end.

People who skip this game just because its not a happy and cheery game are truely missing out on a masterpiece, a true art. This game is depressing because it is guilty of presenting war exactly as the horrible attrocity it is, not as a fun ride other games portray it as.

Modifié par pirate1802, 09 janvier 2013 - 05:56 .

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

And shockingly neither ME1 nor ME2 were that.

Shocking.

And shockingly, ME3 is under no law that it has to be like the first two.

Shocking.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Shocks all around!

[Gruntburner]

pirate1802 wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

iakus wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

Why would I ever waste time or money on a game like that?

Because it is a shooter with one of the greatest narratives in the medium that makes a devastating critique against Modern Military shooters.  Central themes include PTSD, the role of player vs. player character, and the need to feel like a hero.  Just because it isn't fun doesn't mean it isn't an absolutely amazing game.

Spec Ops: The Line has to be the single best military shooter I've played in my life. The story was brilliant. The ending was mindnumbing (in a good way) and you suddenly realize everything you did in the past game has a different meaning. That YOU and only you are responsible for the destruction you see around you. That your need to play hero now means that an entire city will die a painful death.

What amazes me most, is how the game shows you the horrors of war, and then creates circumstances when the player is forced to do those actions themselves. For example, when I saw white phosphorus being used on civilians I was disgusted. But then I see Lugo being hanged by rioting civilians, and I open fire on them without thinking twice. In doing so, I become the monster I despised. I see people buring under the effects of white phosphorus. But when it comes to me I don't even think twice before using it. I use it from a distant console like its a videogame (lol) but when I get down there and face the consequences of my actions.. let's just say ME3 and all its supposedly "depressing" endings are rainbow stuff compared to what you do in this game and what happens to you in the end.

People who skip this game just because its not a happy and cheery game are truely missing out on a masterpiece, a true art. This game is depressing because it is guilty of presenting war exactly as the horrible attrocity it is, not as a fun ride other games portray it as.

Exactly.  It may not necessarily be the best game out there, but it is definately the game that is most deserving to be played.

[Femlob]

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

That game had the same effect on me that Fight Club had when I first saw it, well over a decade ago:

"Wait, what? Shit, you're kiddi-WHARRGARBL"

[Iakus]

Edit:  Nevermind.  You wanna stalk me on th forum, chemiclord,  go ahead.  I'm calling it a night.

Modifié par iakus, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:01 .

[Gruntburner]

Femlob wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

That game had the same effect on me that Fight Club had when I first saw it, well over a decade ago:

"Wait, what? Shit, you're kiddi-WHARRGARBL"

Is that a good "WHARRGARBL" or a bad one?

[chemiclord]

It really boils down to some fans didn't want the game ME3 became. That, in and of itself is okay. I'm sorry it wasn't what you expected thematically, but there's nothing particularly wrong with a grimdark theme. And in this scenario, I think it was warranted.

Funny thing is, very few series that are considered "great" are consistent thematically from start to finish. The Empire Strikes Back, for example, was a significant change from A New Hope or Return of the Jedi. Star Trek II kinda took Kirk's "I don't believe in a no-win scenario" and spit it's mangled corpse back in his face with a "good of the many outweighs the good of the few."

ME3 certainly deviated from the formula by making the thematic shift at the end rather than in the middle, but the thematic shift itself isn't horrible or wrong or even ill-advised.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:05 .

[Oni Changas]

Because according to casper and thr rgb, "LIFE SSSUCKS... AND THEN YOU DIEEEE!!!"

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

Edit:  Nevermind.  You wanna stalk me on th forum, chemiclord,  go ahead.  I'm calling it a night.

Considering you were the one who first responded to me, and not the other way around... I'm not sure you understand just what "stalking" means.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:08 .

[Bill Casey]

pirate1802 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I have a couple of saves dedicated to the literal interpretation to try and see other people's points of view. It has ruined me...

It was grotesque and disgusting...
It keeps me up at night...

I was at the nursing home visiting my grandma, I was getting her a Pepsi to drink, and a vending machine malfunctioned and then gave out way too much change. Long story short, I went out of my way to ensure the money went back to the machine's operator...

My grandma told me I was a good person. And I went out into the hallway and broke down. Because I wasn't. I was a monster. I've ran the hypothetical over and over in my head hundreds of times, and I always come to the same conclusion. Under the right circumstances, I would commit genocide. On anyone, on friends and loved ones. All of you...

Presented with choices, each more monstrous and disgusting than the last...

Green used to be my favorite color...
Now whenever I see it, I get pissed off...
The only green outside of nature that I can take solice in is Overlord (where I can shoot synthesis in the face) and Thane (The measure of an individual is difficult to discern from actions alone) Both of them I keep close to me...

At times I feel dead inside...
Not only did I not see how people interpreted the ending as completely literal, I really didn't see how they could like it...

Dude.. It's a damn videogame. Why do people feel like torturing themselvesover a piece of fiction? Don't get me wrong, I do get how games can mean so much to some people but if you take things THAT seriously that you stay awake at nights over monstrosity you commited in a game.. Chill out men. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves it's just a game.

And if you think ME3's endings were monstrous, wait till you learn of what I did in New Vegas. And I slept a happy man that night. Some monster I am xD

It's a philosophical hypothetical...
And the assertion that I feel like torturing myself is laughable...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:14 .

[Femlob]

Gruntburner wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

That game had the same effect on me that Fight Club had when I first saw it, well over a decade ago:

"Wait, what? Shit, you're kiddi-WHARRGARBL"

Is that a good "WHARRGARBL" or a bad one?

[Bill Casey]

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

And the ending of Spec Ops The Line is a hallucination...

Walt Whitman - Spec Ops: The Line'

"For me, everything after the crash is Walker kind of reliving the hell of what he had just done," says Williams. "You can even interpret Konrad as being not necessarily a delusion inside his mind, but some kind of external projection of his guilt in this purgatory or hell or afterlife, or however you choose to view it."

That said, Williams notes one last, vital visual trick. "Any time the game is doing a normal transition, it'll fade to black. Any time Walker is hallucinating, or lying to himself, in a kind of delusional fashion, the game will fade to white," he says. "The entire epilogue sequence where Walker goes home, it fades to white. Even if you are not reading that Walker died in the chopper crash, it is meant to be understood that Walker is hallucinating going home."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:23 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Bill Casey wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I have a couple of saves dedicated to the literal interpretation to try and see other people's points of view. It has ruined me...

It was grotesque and disgusting...
It keeps me up at night...

I was at the nursing home visiting my grandma, I was getting her a Pepsi to drink, and a vending machine malfunctioned and then gave out way too much change. Long story short, I went out of my way to ensure the money went back to the machine's operator...

My grandma told me I was a good person. And I went out into the hallway and broke down. Because I wasn't. I was a monster. I've ran the hypothetical over and over in my head hundreds of times, and I always come to the same conclusion. Under the right circumstances, I would commit genocide. On anyone, on friends and loved ones. All of you...

Presented with choices, each more monstrous and disgusting than the last...

Green used to be my favorite color...
Now whenever I see it, I get pissed off...
The only green outside of nature that I can take solice in is Overlord (where I can shoot synthesis in the face) and Thane (The measure of an individual is difficult to discern from actions alone) Both of them I keep close to me...

At times I feel dead inside...
Not only did I not see how people interpreted the ending as completely literal, I really didn't see how they could like it...

Dude.. It's a damn videogame. Why do people feel like torturing themselvesover a piece of fiction? Don't get me wrong, I do get how games can mean so much to some people but if you take things THAT seriously that you stay awake at nights over monstrosity you commited in a game.. Chill out men. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves it's just a game.

And if you think ME3's endings were monstrous, wait till you learn of what I did in New Vegas. And I slept a happy man that night. Some monster I am xD

It's a philosophical hypothetical...
And the assertion that I feel like torturing myself is laughable...

Its a hypothetical that is not likely to happen. Don't know about you, but I'm 99.345% sure I'd never, in this life, be able to be in a situation where I have to choose between one form of galactic genocide on another. So why bother myself over that?

And by torturing yourself I meant mentally, by thinking you're not good, thinking it over and over at nights and whatnot. I didn't meant you were figuratively in a torture chamber lol.

But anyway, your life is yours and I have no business with it. Sorry if I crossed a line. Cheers!

[GreyLycanTrope]

Didn't feel like it was that dark and depressing tbh, least not to me. Certainly had it's emotional moments but it was more of a bittersweet at least when they weren't contrived anyways.

EDit: wait I got one, I found Joker's sister to be geniunely depressing....that's about it.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:27 .

[Gruntburner]

Bill Casey wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

And the ending of Spec Ops The Line is a hallucination...

Walt Whitman - Spec Ops: The Line'

"For me, everything after the crash is Walker kind of reliving the hell of what he had just done," says Williams. "You can even interpret Konrad as being not necessarily a delusion inside his mind, but some kind of external projection of his guilt in this purgatory or hell or afterlife, or however you choose to view it."

That said, Williams notes one last, vital visual trick. "Any time the game is doing a normal transition, it'll fade to black. Any time Walker is hallucinating, or lying to himself, in a kind of delusional fashion, the game will fade to white," he says. "The entire epilogue sequence where Walker goes home, it fades to white. Even if you are not reading that Walker died in the chopper crash, it is meant to be understood that Walker is hallucinating going home."

Everything about the ending is open to interpretation.  The writer who you quoted said that that was merely his own interpretation.  That and everything after the white phosphorus scene is somewhat skewed by the main character having PTSD.

[silverexile17s]

iakus wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I admit  a game like that doesn't sound very appealing. But then again, is war itslef really all that appealing?
Things like Iraq and Afganastan are why I don't envy the job of a soldier. And the depressing themes of war in games like that? Thats' how real war is. And the depressing is becoming the theme more an more in coming games.
Dishonored, Aliens: Colonial Marrines, Dead Space 3, Gears of War 3, Call of Duty: Spec Ops, and likely DmC: Devil may Cry, as well.
You can't escape that theme. I garuntee that most new games this year will have depressing undertones like that.
It's not wasting money if you ask me. It's being realistic to what war is - depressing and harsh.

If depressing and harsh is considered "art" I'll take entertainment, thanks.

Good luck with that. Soon enough, you will not have one without the other.
But you cannot claim to take intrest in any game that holds the theme of combat and war in it if you don't expect depressing. That's like expecting Aliens or Dead Space to not have horror. (Oh, wait.... Damn you, Dead Space 3!!!)
Besides, games can mesh the two together well enough. ME3 did until the flood of bittersweet that was the ending.
You can't be a fan of shooters or RPGs like ME if you don't want to witness or acknolodge the theme of war.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:31 .

[noobcannon]

Bill Casey wrote...

I have a couple of saves dedicated to the literal interpretation to try and see other people's points of view. It has ruined me...

It was grotesque and disgusting...
It keeps me up at night...

I was at the nursing home visiting my grandma, I was getting her a Pepsi to drink, and a vending machine malfunctioned and then gave out way too much change. Long story short, I went out of my way to ensure the money went back to the machine's operator...

My grandma told me I was a good person. And I went out into the hallway and broke down. Because I wasn't. I was a monster. I've ran the hypothetical over and over in my head hundreds of times, and I always come to the same conclusion. Under the right circumstances, I would commit genocide. On anyone, on friends and loved ones. All of you...

Presented with choices, each more monstrous and disgusting than the last...

Green used to be my favorite color...
Now whenever I see it, I get pissed off...
The only green outside of nature that I can take solice in is Overlord (where I can shoot synthesis in the face) and Thane (The measure of an individual is difficult to discern from actions alone) Both of them I keep close to me...

At times I feel dead inside...
Not only did I not see how people interpreted the ending as completely literal, I really didn't see how they could like it...

lol

[Bill Casey]

pirate1802 wrote...

Its a hypothetical that is not likely to happen. Don't know about you, but I'm 99.345% sure I'd never, in this life, be able to be in a situation where I have to choose between one form of galactic genocide on another. So why bother myself over that?

And by torturing yourself I meant mentally, by thinking you're not good, thinking it over and over at nights and whatnot. I didn't meant you were figuratively in a torture chamber lol.

But anyway, your life is yours and I have no business with it. Sorry if I crossed a line. Cheers!

My thoughts compose me...
If I could stop thinking about it, I would have already...

[DirtyPhoenix]

Gruntburner wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

And the ending of Spec Ops The Line is a hallucination...

Walt Whitman - Spec Ops: The Line'

"For me, everything after the crash is Walker kind of reliving the hell of what he had just done," says Williams. "You can even interpret Konrad as being not necessarily a delusion inside his mind, but some kind of external projection of his guilt in this purgatory or hell or afterlife, or however you choose to view it."

That said, Williams notes one last, vital visual trick. "Any time the game is doing a normal transition, it'll fade to black. Any time Walker is hallucinating, or lying to himself, in a kind of delusional fashion, the game will fade to white," he says. "The entire epilogue sequence where Walker goes home, it fades to white. Even if you are not reading that Walker died in the chopper crash, it is meant to be understood that Walker is hallucinating going home."

Everything about the ending is open to interpretation.  The writer who you quoted said that that was merely his own interpretation.  That and everything after the white phosphorus scene is somewhat skewed by the main character having PTSD.

That's true. The writer admits that was his own interpretetion. But I've always suspected something. The game starts with you in a chopper, gunning away. And when you get to that point during the story; Adams was it? who says.. hey didn't we do all this already?

[silverexile17s]

Bill Casey wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Its a hypothetical that is not likely to happen. Don't know about you, but I'm 99.345% sure I'd never, in this life, be able to be in a situation where I have to choose between one form of galactic genocide on another. So why bother myself over that?

And by torturing yourself I meant mentally, by thinking you're not good, thinking it over and over at nights and whatnot. I didn't meant you were figuratively in a torture chamber lol.

But anyway, your life is yours and I have no business with it. Sorry if I crossed a line. Cheers!

My thoughts compose me...
If I could stop thinking about it, I would have already...

I don't envy what you must have seen.
My condolences.

[DirtyPhoenix]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's like expecting Aliens or Dead Space to not have horror. (Oh, wait.... Damn you, Dead Space 3!!!)

LEL. R.I.P another great franchise. Thou will be remembered.

[Gruntburner]

pirate1802 wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Just because it is a video game means that it can't be depressing? Go play Spec Ops: The Line and then tell me that ME3 is depressing. That game essentially takes all the negative emotions from Apocalypse Now and the last half of Full Metal Jacket and throws it back at the player.

And the ending of Spec Ops The Line is a hallucination...

Walt Whitman - Spec Ops: The Line'

"For me, everything after the crash is Walker kind of reliving the hell of what he had just done," says Williams. "You can even interpret Konrad as being not necessarily a delusion inside his mind, but some kind of external projection of his guilt in this purgatory or hell or afterlife, or however you choose to view it."

That said, Williams notes one last, vital visual trick. "Any time the game is doing a normal transition, it'll fade to black. Any time Walker is hallucinating, or lying to himself, in a kind of delusional fashion, the game will fade to white," he says. "The entire epilogue sequence where Walker goes home, it fades to white. Even if you are not reading that Walker died in the chopper crash, it is meant to be understood that Walker is hallucinating going home."

Everything about the ending is open to interpretation.  The writer who you quoted said that that was merely his own interpretation.  That and everything after the white phosphorus scene is somewhat skewed by the main character having PTSD.

That's true. The writer admits that was his own interpretetion. But I've always suspected something. The game starts with you in a chopper, gunning away. And when you get to that point during the story; Adams was it? who says.. hey didn't we do all this already?

I believe that it is Walters who says it.  Doesn't really make sense from a logical standpoint (as it implies he is psychic) but does contribute to the unreliable point of view we are given.

[Endurium]

Depressing? Hmmm, I was too busy cheering the Reapers on and watching them walk across the obliterated landscape. On the other hand, Cerberus was damn annoying.

[Bill Casey]

Far Cry 3 does something similar with ambiguous reality and a work with multiple interpretations...
It's become a thing this year, and I'm suspecting it's because Inception came out around two years ago...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:40 .