2398 réponses à ce sujet

[Clover Rider]

They are called Corpse Soldiers in Japanese.

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...
Walhart's motivation was actually a combination of Social Darwinism and a desire to whip out the Grimleal, so that could have been used for the exposition.

Yup. Especially the later part: that only gets told to us by Aversa, after the fact.


You know what I wish they had used more of? Outerrealm, or at least the time travel gate. We could have had a whole mix-match of timelines fighting over this one: a timeline in which The Counquer was victorious, the Bad Future timeline, and so on.

Now, I'm totally being corrupted by Mass Effect here, but if the Fell Dragon had been controlable, then everyone could have been interested in our timeline because the Avatar/Grima is 'up for grabs', so to speak. Walhart would destroy it: the Grimleal would have used it for world domination: Lucina wants to use it to fight her own timeline's Grima.

Or something like that.

Not entirely sure if that last bit would fit on the cartridge, but if it could... solid maybe.

They still have a Bad Future pack of DLC coming out, no alternate presents though:?

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, well, that'd be more of a rewrite anyway.

Though I do wish Validar had had at least delusions of grandeur as a motivation: even a 'by controlling the Avatar I can control the power of a God!' rant would have fit, and then followed up by Grima going 'yeah right' and blasting him or something.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Now, I'm totally being corrupted by Mass Effect here, but if the Fell Dragon had been controlable, then everyone could have been interested in our timeline because the Avatar/Grima is 'up for grabs', so to speak. Walhart would destroy it: the Grimleal would have used it for world domination: Lucina wants to use it to fight her own timeline's Grima.

Or something like that.

I agree with you on Walhart's motivation and how he should have talked about the Grimleal being the real problem, but the Grima we end up killing is the one who came from Lucina's timeline to take over this world (the same one who revived Validar after he got killed like a ****). I think that Grima's primary motivation is a major case of butthurt of Naga beating the earth dragons before and then getting smacked down by the first exalt. Validar and the Grimleal are true sycophants, they may know they are all going to die but it would be like religions in this world wanting to bring the end times because they think that is the ultimate fate of the world or would bring glory to their god.
And the Risen, they originally came from Lucina's future, but I am headcannoning that those who died in this timeline start to become Risen as the story goes on, depending on certain things, with Walhart having been Risen but retaining his mind since he is Mother****ing Walhart, he gives ZERO ****s about which fell Dragon wants his soul.

[Roflbox]

So Intelligent Systems is interested in making a new Advance Wars game. I would **** my pants if they announced a new one.

8-4wrote...
8-4:What about Advance Wars? A lot of fans in the West wanted to ask if we'll ever see Advance Wars again?


Yokota: (laughs) Hey, who should answer this?

Higuchi:Well, whether it's Fire Emblem or the Advance Wars, we never want to put an end to any series we're involved with. We always want to make games that provide a lot of fun to gamers, so if we have the chance, we'd certainly like to make another [Advance Wars] title.

Nice...armor.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Now, I'm totally being corrupted by Mass Effect here, but if the Fell Dragon had been controlable, then everyone could have been interested in our timeline because the Avatar/Grima is 'up for grabs', so to speak. Walhart would destroy it: the Grimleal would have used it for world domination: Lucina wants to use it to fight her own timeline's Grima.

Or something like that.

I agree with you on Walhart's motivation and how he should have talked about the Grimleal being the real problem, but the Grima we end up killing is the one who came from Lucina's timeline to take over this world (the same one who revived Validar after he got killed like a ****). I think that Grima's primary motivation is a major case of butthurt of Naga beating the earth dragons before and then getting smacked down by the first exalt. Validar and the Grimleal are true sycophants, they may know they are all going to die but it would be like religions in this world wanting to bring the end times because they think that is the ultimate fate of the world or would bring glory to their god.

Meh. Not saying you're wrong, but not only did the game not really follow that route but it's unsatisfying as a motivation as well. I'd even prefer a more fatalistic 'Humanity is irredeemably corrupt and violent: just look at the suffering of the Ylessian Crusades, the war with Plegia, Walhart, etc. Time to reset the world so a new, more peaceful, race can rise. After all, a nation of one won't have wars.' A fatalistic god who gave up hope, in other words: an appropriate foe to be overcome by Chrom and Co., who follow paths of human bonds, freindship, forgiveness, and optimism.

Touching on the previous idea I mentioned of Chrom's character development being a possible point of departure between the Present and the Future timelines, I've been musing on how the story might have played out had the future-Avatar's fall been a result of the Future Chrom's actions, and not Validar's possession. Say that the Future Chrom, having never developed the forgiveness, patience, or unbreakable bonds of the Present Chrom, was provoked and manipulated into turning on the Avatar... and the future Avatar, having those closest bonds sundered, fell into despair. That Fall, rather than inherent nature, corrupts the Fell Dragon further and leads to the dark future. The Fell Dragon's fatalism could be embodied by the fall of Chrom, who as the Avatar's best friend was the one that all the hope and expectations for the merits of Humanity rested on.

Of course, the exact nature of the betrayal would be obscured and  point of multiple revelations. We, the players, are led to suspect it was the Avatar by free will, and then the Avatar against his will by possession, until the real truth is that the future-Avatar killed Chrom in the confusion of self-defence.

And the Risen, they originally came from Lucina's future, but I am headcannoning that those who died in this timeline start to become Risen as the story goes on, depending on certain things, with Walhart having been Risen but retaining his mind since he is Mother****ing Walhart, he gives ZERO ****s about which fell Dragon wants his soul.

I was thinking the Elojhim, or however those card-spirits are spelled. Since the Outrealm Gate is known and used by people other than Chrom and co, it would make sense to tie it into the plot a bit more.

I was thinking on yesterday, and a possible extension of the Valm arc in Walhart's favor could have been at the castle invasion that marks his defeat. You kill all his guards, and then kill Walhart... but like a badass, you can't keep a good Conqueror down.

At the moment of imminent victory, when the final blow has been struck, Walhart topples forward... and then catches himself in a telling step forward. Wallhart conquers Death itself, and rallies not only his own spirit but the spirit of all his men who followed him beyond the pale: across the map all the defeated spirits begin to rise again as Elojhim and take their place as Wallhart's guard in death as well as life.

As spirits of the dead begin to rise inside the Castle and out, the Avatar realizes that soon they will be surrounded and trapped inside the castle as well as out. The Avatar and Chrom retreat, and the war on Valm seems to take a new phase: Walhart and his army of true believers appear to be unkillable, as every Elojhim struck down on the field will come again at the Conqueror's call. While the Dynasts, no longer under Walhort's influence, remain free and fight on, Walhart himself deems them insignificant and looks again to re-invading Ylisse and taking down the Grimleal.

Insert a new/transition arc, in which Chrom needs to uncover the secrets of the Elojhim and the Outrealm Gate in order to find a way to beat the Conqueror and seal Walhart away. This ties into completing the Fire Emblem, the nature of the time travelers, and a return/shift to the Grimleal arc, in which Validar and the Plegians are untrusted allies in the mutual struggle against the Conqueror. Naturally Validar attempts to use the situation to his own advantage, and possibly tricks Chrom and Co. into helping him set up the Grima Ascension ritual on the pretext of using the powers of Grima (unsummoned, of course) into sealing Wallhart's Elojim host into their cards.

Sort of a 'if you lead Wallhart's host to the Dragon's Table, we can conduct a ritual to stop the Conqueror once and for all...' a prospect which would put Chrom and Co in the role of defending the revival of Grima.

[Mahrac]

The Walhart/Einherjar bit makes the mythology buff in me cringe. I'd see the Valkyrie choosing Walhart, but not so much his men. Especially since (in-game and in-myth) Einherjar don't stay in their own realm. Nice idea though.

[Sajuro]

Yeah, the Einherjar in game are supposed to be great warriors even if they were the villains, and I think that part of their condition is that they don't realize that they are Einherjar. As for the Walhart leading an army, it would just get a bit silly like 'how many times do I have to kill you? Are you the Terminator?!' plus him going across the sea would kind of remove of the point of why Chrom and Company went to Valm in the first place, to prevent an invasion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Yeah, the Einherjar in game are supposed to be great warriors even if they were the villains, and I think that part of their condition is that they don't realize that they are Einherjar.

I was thinking of the Einherjar are a concept, rather than the actual Einherjar themselves: really I'm thinking some use/manipulation of the Gate, which has time-bending properties aplenty. It could just as easily be that Valmese from a future timeline coming through: a timeline in which Walhart beat Chrom, perhaps, but lost to Grima. Or something similar, to help push Walhart to prioritizing the Grimleal.

Really the main function is to give Walhart a basis for doing a reversal against Chrom and Co, even though the game would implicitly have you in a position to beat him. Sudden reinforcements do that, but the real impetus is the effect, not the means.

As for the Walhart leading an army, it would just get a bit silly like 'how many times do I have to kill you? Are you the Terminator?!' plus him going across the sea would kind of remove of the point of why Chrom and Company went to Valm in the first place, to prevent an invasion.

Is defeat really a problem, though? Walhart's credibility is modest overall given that he never really has a victory of any sort over Chrom and the Avatar. A reversal of momentum, in which Chrom has to overcome adversity and implicit defeats rather than go from one victory to the next, strikes me as better at building dramatic tension. I think tying Walhart into the Grimleal arc would help both, and an implicit part of that would be bringing his forces over to Ylisse in some way: both to enforce the point that he is a threat, but also to continue to drive the Plegian-Ylisse alliance.


It's not the only way, of course. We could introduce a change in which Walhart doesn't lose. Rather than have the scenario lead to his defeat, we could say that Excellus teleports himself and Walhart away before Walhart can be defeated, or even fought.

Or we could have some form of a no-win/made-to-lose scenario, in which Chrom and the Avatar have no chance to beat Walhart no matter how good the player is. This doesn't have to be a must-lose scenario, such as spawning infinite high level enemies to overwhelm the player, but it could simply be by rigging game mechanics in Walhart's favor, to illustrate his power.


Imagine, for example, if Walhart had a Pair Up of his own which would, once Walhart is whittled down enough, auto-block every single player attack that would kill Walhart? It could be General McBeardy Face, sworn defender: it could be nameless Valmese soldier XYZ, ready to die for the Emperor: it could be some new character introduced as an ally/servant of Walhart.

The Player gets to a point at which victory is impossible, because Walhart can't be killed via the mechanics of the game: at the same time, Walhart (being overpowered as he is) is a considerable threat, and advances around the map targetting your units, even as reinforcements arrive, increasingly with high-level weapons like Killer Weapons or anti-armor/anti-horse/anti-dragon equipment. The player ends up having to do a fighting retreat from Walhart's throne room, and learns that Walhart's armies have rallied and beaten back the Dynasts: the next few missions are retreats and rallies, before Walhart moves on.

That strike a bit better, you think?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

The Walhart/Einherjar bit makes the mythology buff in me cringe. I'd see the Valkyrie choosing Walhart, but not so much his men. Especially since (in-game and in-myth) Einherjar don't stay in their own realm. Nice idea though.

I haven't played all the FE games, so I may not know the extent of the Einherjar lore of FE. Good point, though.

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

The Walhart/Einherjar bit makes the mythology buff in me cringe. I'd see the Valkyrie choosing Walhart, but not so much his men. Especially since (in-game and in-myth) Einherjar don't stay in their own realm. Nice idea though.

I haven't played all the FE games, so I may not know the extent of the Einherjar lore of FE. Good point, though.

Einherjar are actually a part of Norse mythology. The greatest warriors, fated to fight beside (most of) the gods at the end of the world. Until then, they're constantly fighting each other to get better.

Of course, since it's Norse mythology, the gods lose. Other than that it fits fairly well with what they do in Awakening. Fight each other eternally until Chrom comes and gets them to fight Grima

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

The Walhart/Einherjar bit makes the mythology buff in me cringe. I'd see the Valkyrie choosing Walhart, but not so much his men. Especially since (in-game and in-myth) Einherjar don't stay in their own realm. Nice idea though.

I haven't played all the FE games, so I may not know the extent of the Einherjar lore of FE. Good point, though.

Einherjar are actually a part of Norse mythology. The greatest warriors, fated to fight beside (most of) the gods at the end of the world. Until then, they're constantly fighting each other to get better.

Of course, since it's Norse mythology, the gods lose. Other than that it fits fairly well with what they do in Awakening. Fight each other eternally until Chrom comes and gets them to fight Grima

Interesting. I'll admit I didn't know the mythology, and so I took a different perspective: more along the utility as an impersonal tool of war, especially considering Aversa's involvement in the DLC.

I looked at them, and thought of the Security Holograms from Fallout: Vegas DLC Dead Money. Holograms were more or less invincible as long as their hologram transmitters were intact, and if you hid the transmitters then you could have an effectively unbeatable army. Drop one amonst your enemies, and a single one could do great damage until the transmitter is stopped.

That's somewhat similar to what the Cards could be used for in the Awakening setting: an army that never dies as long as the source is secure. Summon an army of spirits, and none of your own troops are at risk: if the spirits fall, just re-use the card when applicable.The living could fight such a threat, but so long as the card holder retreats the spirits could never be beaten permanently.


That's what I assumed Aversa was going to attempt in the DLC, and it made sense to me as a means to justify a Walhart reversal: I just thought it thematically better to use his own troops, rather than him stealing the souls of others. (Unless that would be considered conquering them...? Maybe it's part of his antagonism/villainy that the souls of his conquered enemies are used to fuel his spirit-army?)

I admit it's not quite in the spirit of the myth, though.

[Sajuro]

I just think that Walhart had his time and though I would have liked it if he told you that you were being played or some dialogue, I wouldn't want the campaign stretched out in that way. Hell, I would have liked it still if when you had Walhart at the blade, he tells you about the Grimleal's plans and what he was doing. At this point you could execute him or tell him to join you, which Say'ri would object to since even if he was doing it for the right reasons he's still a monster and if you did recruit him she would leave your playable army

[Dean_the_Young]

Fair enough: we've different views of how things should have advanced, which is perfectly fine. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Now, I do wish that Say'ri had more dialogue conversations with people: it's kind of bizaar that she doesn't have a support with her own (time-traveling) brother, and as one of the second-act companions she has some of the fewest supports of all. Same with all the paralogue companions.

Heck, I'd probably buy a DLC that expanded the supports: more cross-generational, or DLC supports.

(It'd be bad for the franchise, I suppose, but my discretionary gaming budget is woefully under-used right now.)

[Sajuro]

What about a DLC with an alternate version of the party attacking the world, like that world's Chrom killed the Female Avatar after initially defeating Validar when he saw she was possessed, like a moment of panic or because he made a promise to her. He stops Grima but not only does he sink into despair, but he becomes paranoid and starts thinking that he needs to eliminate all versions of Grima in order to make his world safe, and one of his first stops is your world. His units use the pair up commands and have support levels (if you kill Alternate Vaike, you'd get whoever was paired up with him calling out his name or something)

[Dean_the_Young]

J. Reezy wrote...

It's cool that birthdays have some benefits. I went into the barracks and Tharja got a few stat boosts because it was her birthday like two days ago. Or yesterday. One of those. I forgot.

It's fun, but less so when it's made real-time. You are more than likely to only see a person's B-day once, if ever.

It would work better if game time was faster: say that there were dashed lines rather than solid lines between locations, and that one in-game day passed per dashed line.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

What about a DLC with an alternate version of the party attacking the world, like that world's Chrom killed the Female Avatar after initially defeating Validar when he saw she was possessed, like a moment of panic or because he made a promise to her. He stops Grima but not only does he sink into despair, but he becomes paranoid and starts thinking that he needs to eliminate all versions of Grima in order to make his world safe, and one of his first stops is your world. His units use the pair up commands and have support levels (if you kill Alternate Vaike, you'd get whoever was paired up with him calling out his name or something)

That could be an interesting DLC campaign, sure enough.

[Mahrac]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

It's cool that birthdays have some benefits. I went into the barracks and Tharja got a few stat boosts because it was her birthday like two days ago. Or yesterday. One of those. I forgot.

It's fun, but less so when it's made real-time. You are more than likely to only see a person's B-day once, if ever.

It would work better if game time was faster: say that there were dashed lines rather than solid lines between locations, and that one in-game day passed per dashed line.

Birthdays are tied to real world dates, The children's actually being the days a Fire Emblem game was released and Morgan's being on Child's Day. List here http://serenesforest.../character.html

Modifié par Mahrac, 04 avril 2013 - 05:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Mahrac wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

It's cool that birthdays have some benefits. I went into the barracks and Tharja got a few stat boosts because it was her birthday like two days ago. Or yesterday. One of those. I forgot.

It's fun, but less so when it's made real-time. You are more than likely to only see a person's B-day once, if ever.

It would work better if game time was faster: say that there were dashed lines rather than solid lines between locations, and that one in-game day passed per dashed line.

Birthdays are tied to real world dates, The children's actually being the days a Fire Emblem game was released and Morgan's being on Child's Day. List here http://serenesforest.../character.html

I know that: I said as much. I just think it's a poor design, as I do most real world date/time linkages in video games. Any element of a video game that expects me to plan my life around it, rather than the other way around, is not an element I approve of.

[Dean_the_Young]

On the other topic...

I think one reason I enjoy Awakening as much as I do is because it's one of the rare games that uses time travel in a more than superficial case. Most media that do are pretty superficial about it: it's usually only a single character, and one practically indistinguishable from the rest of the cast.

The future-cast of Awakening is better because, well, it's a real difference for them, one that shows up repeatedly in their dialogue and attitudes. Even when they aren't talking about the future, it shows its impact on them: not just in being reunited with long-lost family, but in other things and experiences. Nah's support with the Avatar, for example, is based around how she's used to eating weeds for anything in her stomach, a telling testament to the devastation and starvation of the future. Even without mentioning the word 'future' at all, the fact that her expectations reflect it in such a way that even modest food is considered luxurious is effective. Some characters dwell on it more than others, but the fact that the future is real to them makes it real to us.

I certainly wish they had done more with the future cast and connections, but that's just it: I want more, not necessarily different.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mahrac wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

It's cool that birthdays have some benefits. I went into the barracks and Tharja got a few stat boosts because it was her birthday like two days ago. Or yesterday. One of those. I forgot.

It's fun, but less so when it's made real-time. You are more than likely to only see a person's B-day once, if ever.

It would work better if game time was faster: say that there were dashed lines rather than solid lines between locations, and that one in-game day passed per dashed line.

Birthdays are tied to real world dates, The children's actually being the days a Fire Emblem game was released and Morgan's being on Child's Day. List here http://serenesforest.../character.html

I know that: I said as much. I just think it's a poor design, as I do most real world date/time linkages in video games. Any element of a video game that expects me to plan my life around it, rather than the other way around, is not an element I approve of.

I'd agree with you if people got permanent stat boosts or anything that good on their birthdays, but now it's like Calender Man in Arkham City, you mainly get birthdays as Easter eggs for playing that day and I never expected it to get to my birthday (Jan 2nd) and thought it would be used to determined affinity like in Rekka no Ken

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On the other topic...

I think one reason I enjoy Awakening as much as I do is because it's one of the rare games that uses time travel in a more than superficial case. Most media that do are pretty superficial about it: it's usually only a single character, and one practically indistinguishable from the rest of the cast.

The future-cast of Awakening is better because, well, it's a real difference for them, one that shows up repeatedly in their dialogue and attitudes. Even when they aren't talking about the future, it shows its impact on them: not just in being reunited with long-lost family, but in other things and experiences. Nah's support with the Avatar, for example, is based around how she's used to eating weeds for anything in her stomach, a telling testament to the devastation and starvation of the future. Even without mentioning the word 'future' at all, the fact that her expectations reflect it in such a way that even modest food is considered luxurious is effective. Some characters dwell on it more than others, but the fact that the future is real to them makes it real to us.

I certainly wish they had done more with the future cast and connections, but that's just it: I want more, not necessarily different.

I always wondered what the current version of the child cast would be like, since most of the flaws in their personalities come from the fact that they were children whose parents died as soon as the world started going to hell and they had to grow up very quickly. With Panne and his father still around, will this timeline's Yarne grow up braver? Will Inigo be less of a player? Will Severa have less Tsundere tendencies especially if Cordellia learned from future Severa and gets over her feelings for Chrom? Even Owain's personality has been shaped by the fact that his Dad died because Owain was too busy blustering.

[Dean_the_Young]

J. Reezy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

It's cool that birthdays have some benefits. I went into the barracks and Tharja got a few stat boosts because it was her birthday like two days ago. Or yesterday. One of those. I forgot.

It's fun, but less so when it's made real-time. You are more than likely to only see a person's B-day once, if ever.

It would work better if game time was faster: say that there were dashed lines rather than solid lines between locations, and that one in-game day passed per dashed line.

I like that idea. Definitely better than the real-time wait you have to go through to get the stat boosts. Although that got me thinking that I could probably mess with the date on the 3DS to get them sooner if I wanted. Unfortunately, I don't even know most of my peoples' birthdays. I'll probably take notes at the end of the game which is the only time I remember seeing them.

An old N64 game called Ogre Battle 64 had a system like that: every year for the main character's Birthday you got a present, which was usually a rare or powerful item. The older you got, the better, and every multiple of ten got you a unique item, including some of the most powerful weapons in the game.