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What will this "Epic" new DLC be about?


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#326
Caprea

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chemiclord wrote...

Even presuming this is inexorably true (it's not, by the way), there's still that little itty bitty problem that outside of some very general expectations, there is next to NO consensus on how to "fix" the endings.

The story the creator wants to tell IS important, even if it pisses off the fans.  If they don't want to change it, they shouldn't.

... which is exactly why BioWare should leave the endings alone and not make matters worse - for the fans and themselves.
In my opinion, the endings are broken and as far as I can tell, a majority of the fans (not only in the BSN) dislikes them. But there's little to no point to closing the barn door after the horse has already escaped. They opened up a bottomless pit with the original ending(s), one that they've tried to fill already (EC, Leviathan) and even partly succeeded at - but just partly.
The problem is that they've tried to mend the most glaring problems, but it won't do unless they completely overhaul the last section of the game and retcon the stupid AI and its flawed logic out of existence. But they won't do it, EC and Leviathan are already out and again, the horse has bolted. They could have overhauled the ending right after it became apparent that a great deal of the fans didn't like it and why they didn't. They could have redeemed the last section of the game - they chose not to, but instead, pushed "their" idea through (in how far it can be called "their" idea in a collective sense is debatable) and tried to make sense of nonsensical things that shouldn't have been there in the first place - and we have to accept and respect their decision, whether we like it or not and whether it does the franchise, its characters and lore justice or not (in my opinion, it doesn't).
I don't like the ending and I certainly don't like how BioWare went with it after the vast size of the mess they got themselves into became obvious. But it is their story, if not in any but the most practical sense: Only they have the credibility to make such an important change, not the fans. Trying to fix it would only make matters worse because like you said,  there's no way to please everybody. There'll always be someone who isn't satisfied and the whole egg dance would start anew. The best thing BioWare can do to get themselves out of this hole when it comes to the endings, is to just stop digging. So they're better off leaving them alone, for their own sake - unless they want to completely overhaul them, but like I said, it's already too late for that.
And after all this, I think it's time to move on, too for some, even the most stubborn people around, and get over the fact that fans can't always have their way. Life's not a picnic.

Addendum: While I do agree that, aside from general ideas, there's next to no consensus as to how the ending could be fixed, I dare say that general ideas would already be sufficient and have enough potential to make a great ending with which at least the main body (as far as I can tell) of those who justifiably disliked the ending could be satisfied. This is actually very telling as to what most of the fans expect(ed) - they didn't expect a detailed 100+ hour breakdown of everything; what they roughly expected was an ending that included virtues that the Mass Effect series has been standing for all those years. So when it comes to general important ideas, I dare say that there is, in fact, a consensus amongst most fans. Here's the list most that I know and have read about agree on:
* lose the AI kid and its attendant pseudo-scientific choices
* focus on the characters
* keep it simple. Simple works for reason. There's no need to overly complicate things, especially in the last ten minutes.
* give the players the distinct and individual endings, not an A/B/C choice. It's so much more believable when you get a "See what you've done" ending instead of a "Here you go, choose" one.
* respect their own goddamn lore, no space magic.
* respect that the players have had a strong emotional investment into the game; don't give them an excessively intellectual ending, but keep the focus on emotions, like they always have.

Too much to ask (again, ask - not demand) for? Hmmm... Apart from the "give the fans vastly distinct endings" one maybe, I honestly don't see how that could have been so hard to manage. Or maybe I'm just ignorant.

Modifié par dea_ex_machina, 13 janvier 2013 - 10:57 .


#327
TheRealJayDee

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Finn the Jakey wrote...

Jacob finds Shepard is the rubble, kills him, and steals his identity.


Image IPB





I'd buy it... Image IPB

#328
munnellyladt

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When they said it will make us cry,I assume it may have something to do with someone we know dying if a alternate ending isn't the case(Please god let it be the case!!!).

Also the blow us away part...
I don't know what it could be...probably something that could blow us away...just a guess.

#329
Clayless

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munnellyladt wrote...

When they said it will make us cry,I assume it may have something to do with someone we know dying if a alternate ending isn't the case(Please god let it be the case!!!).

Also the blow us away part...
I don't know what it could be...probably something that could blow us away...just a guess.


They never said that, Sam Hullick said there's a chance for tears with one musical piece, and no one said it will blow us away.

Seriously BSN.

#330
cavs25

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Robosexual wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Its about a group of developers over hyping mediocre dlc


My god it's happening (again). People are ignoring reality and blaming Bioware for the things they just made up.

It has gotten to the stage where BSN has started accepting dreams as evidence.


People still don't get jokes sigh :wub:

#331
Seboist

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More mindless pew pew (Omega) or more derp to try to add "depth"  to the endings(Leviathan). Maybe even both.

Modifié par Seboist, 14 janvier 2013 - 01:29 .


#332
Su37

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Robosexual wrote...

They never said that, Sam Hullick said there's a chance for tears with one musical piece, and no one said it will blow us away.

Seriously BSN.

I'm not suggesting that the upcoming DLC will be ending related, but if a musical piece has a chance for tears, then it could be said that it will be used in an emotional scene, much like the piece used in the final conversation with Anderson.

Modifié par SU37, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:44 .


#333
MstrJedi Kyle

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As long as its not "Go here, kill Cerberus." I'm good, I've had enough of killing Cerberus because reasons.

#334
GimmeDaGun

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Seboist wrote...

More mindless pew pew (Omega) or more derp to try to add "depth" (but in reality more derp) to the endings(Leviathan). Maybe even both.




Hey, be happy mate! It's a bit of fuel for you to be around here a bit longer in order to express your hatred and disappointment and mock on some of "us", "nerdish" people who like or hate ME. ;)


To me, it's another opportunity to enjoy and expand on the ME experience: yeah, more "derp" and "pew-pew" for me... cause lets face it, that's what ME is and always was from the get go - yeah ME1 included - but it's good "derp" and "pew-pew" (sci-fi, action-adventure saga it is).

So, it's all happy days for both of us, I guess... aye? :)

#335
GimmeDaGun

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double post:ph34r:

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:59 .


#336
Indy_S

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You're not the only one sick of Cerberus. They beat death but they can't beat Shepard.

#337
ZeCollectorDestroya

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It's going to feature 2 hours of shooting Cerberus goons.

If Bioware thinks anyone is going to trust them on that particular statement: hahahahahaha!

#338
JC426

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i think it should be a post ending dlc where they build Shepard a robot body and upload Mouse's Shepard VI program into it and you then travel around the galaxy giving speeches to crowds and take the plaudits for saving the galaxy

#339
CptBomBom00

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Probably more Cerberus, again.

#340
umadcommander

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CptBomBom00 wrote...

Probably more Cerberus, again.

........i'll get my coat

#341
CptBomBom00

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umadcommander wrote...

CptBomBom00 wrote...

Probably more Cerberus, again.

........i'll get my coat


I suspect BW has a Cerberus fetish or something.:lol:

#342
umadcommander

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CptBomBom00 wrote...

umadcommander wrote...

CptBomBom00 wrote...

Probably more Cerberus, again.

........i'll get my coat


I suspect BW has a Cerberus fetish or something.:lol:

ugh im just so sick of cerberus now, they are just bland, faceless minions. I mean so are the reapers technically but at least they're interesting. In ME3 cerberus is just the third reich in space<_<

#343
Seboist

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Hey, be happy mate! It's a bit of fuel for you to be around here a bit longer in order to express your hatred and disappointment and mock on some of "us", "nerdish" people who like or hate ME. ;)


To me, it's another opportunity to enjoy and expand on the ME experience: yeah, more "derp" and "pew-pew" for me... cause lets face it, that's what ME is and always was from the get go - yeah ME1 included - but it's good "derp" and "pew-pew" (sci-fi, action-adventure saga it is).

So, it's all happy days for both of us, I guess... aye? :)


Pray tell what's sci-fi about the sequels? Genuine science fiction doesn't have death itself being cured with the character in question and everyone else not giving two sh!ts about it or have something like genetic engineering/transhunmanism used as a mere bit point for a daddy issue plot(Miranda). Not to mention the moronic comic book outfits that beak lore.

ME1 is a true homage to classic 80s/90s sci-fi while it's sequels are 1930s level pulp schlock.

#344
GimmeDaGun

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Seboist wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Hey, be happy mate! It's a bit of fuel for you to be around here a bit longer in order to express your hatred and disappointment and mock on some of "us", "nerdish" people who like or hate ME. ;)


To me, it's another opportunity to enjoy and expand on the ME experience: yeah, more "derp" and "pew-pew" for me... cause lets face it, that's what ME is and always was from the get go - yeah ME1 included - but it's good "derp" and "pew-pew" (sci-fi, action-adventure saga it is).

So, it's all happy days for both of us, I guess... aye? :)


Pray tell what's sci-fi about the sequels? Genuine science fiction doesn't have death itself being cured with the character in question and everyone else not giving two sh!ts about it or have something like genetic engineering/transhunmanism used as a mere bit point for a daddy issue plot(Miranda). Not to mention the moronic comic book outfits that beak lore.

ME1 is a true homage to classic 80s/90s sci-fi while it's sequels are 1930s level pulp schlock.



Lets just not start arguing about what sci-fi is or is not. It's a pretty big and wide genre of fictional literature, film making and gaming which has many sub-genres and not all of them are space-operas (like Star Trek, Star Wars or battlestar galactica etc.) or related to space or techy stuff. Sci-fis can revolve around both philosophical or scientific issues, technical subjects, ideals, history or just can plain tell you a story in a pseudo-scientific fantasy setting. Asimov, Tarkovsky, Frank Herbert, Lucas, Ridley Scott, Stanislav Lem... all great at sci-fi in their own right, but slightly distinct from one another, just as the different sub-genres of sci-fi: space-opera, cyber-punk, steam-punk, alternative history, soft sci-fi, hard sci-fi, apocalyptic sci-fi, military sci-fi etc. etc. etc. ... so as you can see it for yourself: you can hardly limit sci-fi. 

And answering your question: what's sci-fi about the sequels? Well, just about everything... Well, you are disliking them is a different subject, and you have all the right to do so, but it won't make ME2 or ME3 less of a sci-fi. Cloning, the technical possibility of prolonged\\eternal life or revival, genetic engineering, synergy etc. etc. are all sci-fi stuff, just like issues like the conflict between creation and creator or technological singularity (when technology reaches a level where it is way beyond its creator and is able to maintain and improve itself without the need for organics), aliens influencing or controlling less advanced civilizations etc. etc. are all sci-fi themes. ME happens to combine various elements of different sub-genres (space-opera, military sci-fi, apocalyptic sci-fi, both hard and soft sci-fi and a bit of cyber-punk also) both theme-wise and setting-wise.

Oh, and Stargate (the movie) features the theme of eternal life and techology based revival for instance... and it is a sci-fi (and not the only one which does that).

But, I get you: you dislike the sequels because they didn't meet your expectations or you wanted them to be something completely different... so they don't fit your taste. Well once I told you: there's no such a  huge gap between the first game and the two others in derpiness, you just happen to like ME1 while hate the other two for your own reasons. It's ok, but don't be soo hurt about it, man, that you constantly need to tell others that they know **** about this matter and that they have ****ty tastes, while yours is not so much different at all. They are just sci-fi games. You take them a bit too seriously, despite you don't like them. I only "waste" my time on things that I like and enjoy (except politics... but lets not go there).

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:48 .


#345
The Heretic of Time

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GimmeDaGun, I only need to share this one quote to debunk your entire wall of text. This is a quote from a former Mass Effect writer in fact:

"What I didn't understand as a child was that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a corpse." - Chris L'etoile


You see, that's EXACTLY what Mass Effect 2 and especially 3 is lacking.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:52 .


#346
Seboist

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Lets just not start arguing about what sci-fi is or is not.


Yes, let's not,otherwise your precious ME2 and 3 with their derp such as humans being turned into liquid goo to form a space terminator/contra 3 boss because of nonexistent "genetic diversity" would get laughed at by any serious science fiction writer worth their salt.

Straight from the horse's mouth on what sci-fi really is from former BW writer Chris L'etoile

What I didn't understand as a child was
that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's
about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a
corpse.


That you think space fantasy like Star Wars is "sci-fi" is really telling.

e. Well once I told you: there's no such a  huge gap between the first game and the two others in derpiness


Let's ignore going from needing sealed space suits in hazardous enviroments to cat suits and nipple strips, going from fighting Reapers to fighting sesame street mercs and solving daddy issues, baby arnold at the end, clockwor oranging an autist in a completely nonsensical manner to control robots,retcons and discontinuity galore amongst a list of other disregards for what ME1 set up.

Modifié par Seboist, 14 janvier 2013 - 02:56 .


#347
GimmeDaGun

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GimmeDaGun, I only need to share this one quote to debunk your entire wall of text. This is a quote from a former Mass Effect writer in fact:

"What I didn't understand as a child was that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a corpse." - Chris L'etoile


You see, that's EXACTLY what Mass Effect 2 and especially 3 is lacking.



eeerrr... ok? I guess...:huh: Did you even read my "wall of text" before you "debunked" it? 

Just because I don't see where it does debunk what I wrote, nor does this statement contradict the themes and messages of both ME2 and ME3. So call me a fool, but I don't see your point. Care to explain?

#348
The Heretic of Time

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GimmeDaGun, I only need to share this one quote to debunk your entire wall of text. This is a quote from a former Mass Effect writer in fact:

"What I didn't understand as a child was that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a corpse." - Chris L'etoile


You see, that's EXACTLY what Mass Effect 2 and especially 3 is lacking.



eeerrr... ok? I guess...:huh: Did you even read my "wall of text" before you "debunked" it? 

Just because I don't see where it does debunk what I wrote, nor does this statement contradict the themes and messages of both ME2 and ME3. So call me a fool, but I don't see your point. Care to explain?


I knew it would be too hard for you to understand what I was saying. Okay, I'll explain it for you.


The point is, that sci-fi is not about bringing dead Spectres back to life with superb technology. Sci-fi is about what a human would do with such technology and more importantly, how the reanimated subject (Shepard in this case) would deal with it.

Sci-fi is less about the technology and more about the psychological, sociological and ethical consequences of such technology.

A good example of this would be the anime Ghost In The Shell. It's about a female police officer named Motoko who died but is brought back to life in a synthetic body. Her new android form makes her better, stronger and faster than ever, but she can't help but questioning her identity. Is she really Motoko, or just an AI copy of herself? Is she still human, or just a robot? Ar her memories her own memories, or just copies of her mer memories? Are her memories even real? These are all questions that consume Motoko and over the course of te anime these questions are answered slowly but surely.

Now THAT is proper sci-fi. THAT is how project Lazarus in Mass Effect 2 should have been handled. But as it is right now, project Lazarus is just a lazy, stupid and silly reset button.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:12 .


#349
GimmeDaGun

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Seboist wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Lets just not start arguing about what sci-fi is or is not.


Yes, let's not,otherwise your precious ME2 and 3 with their derp such as humans being turned into liquid goo to form a space terminator/contra 3 boss because of nonexistent "genetic diversity" would get laughed at by any serious science fiction writer worth their salt.

Straight from the horse's mouth on what sci-fi really is from former BW writer Chris L'etoile

What I didn't understand as a child was
that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's
about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a
corpse.


That you think space fantasy like Star Wars is "sci-fi" is really telling.

e. Well once I told you: there's no such a  huge gap between the first game and the two others in derpiness


Let's ignore going from needing sealed space suits in hazardous enviroments to cat suits and nipple strips, going from fighting Reapers to fighting sesame street mercs and solving daddy issues, baby arnold at the end, clockwor oranging an autist in a completely nonsensical manner to control robots,retcons and discontinuity galore amongst a list of other disregards for what ME1 set up.



Now, every single one of you who happen to disagree with me or hate ME2-3\\Bioware etc. is going to quote Chris L'etoile to me? Yeah, it's a nice quote and subjective view of sci-fi (I as a huge fan of soft sci-fi or philosophical sci-fi especially agree with it), but last I checked it wasn't Chris who invented or defined sci-fi. 

As for Star Wars... :lol::lol::lol:... you're preaching to the choir, master Seboist: I'm one who can't stand SW, but it won't make it something else than what it is: a space-opera. Yeah, which is considered being sci-fi. So, it is sci-fi wether we like it or not... and that's part of my point: ME2 and 3 is sci-fi wether you like it or not

About ME: any serious (where do we draw the line for that) sci-fi writer would consider ME derpy and stupid (including ME1). First and foremost because it's a game for gaming nerds... ... than it has lots of shooting, no real character developments, many cliches from known sci-fi (and not only sci-fi) books and films etc.. But in it's own right and merit, it is a good sci-fi adventure saga and has lots of entertainment values, and even some nice or thought provoking messages and themes (yeah, cliched... but everything is what's debated by humans in real life and is not hard-core philosophy or theology related). So it is successful and popular. 

What I don't understand is: if you are such a sci-fi snob (sorry, but you seem to be pretty proud of the fact) that you don't even consider some games, films etc. sci-fi which do indeed fall under the category of sci-fi, then why the hell are you playing with a derpy game or refering back to some ridiculous 80-90s tv-show sci-fi dramas (which can be considered stupid by sci-fi purists) only enjoyed by tech-nerds in the first place? Why are you here with us?...Really, I'm curious.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:35 .


#350
GimmeDaGun

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

GimmeDaGun, I only need to share this one quote to debunk your entire wall of text. This is a quote from a former Mass Effect writer in fact:

"What I didn't understand as a child was that science fiction is not about a gun that atomizes someone; it's about what a human does when they can commit murder and not leave a corpse." - Chris L'etoile


You see, that's EXACTLY what Mass Effect 2 and especially 3 is lacking.



eeerrr... ok? I guess...:huh: Did you even read my "wall of text" before you "debunked" it? 

Just because I don't see where it does debunk what I wrote, nor does this statement contradict the themes and messages of both ME2 and ME3. So call me a fool, but I don't see your point. Care to explain?


I knew it would be too hard for you to understand what I was saying. Okay, I'll explain it for you.


The point is, that sci-fi is not about bringing dead Spectres back to life with superb technology. Sci-fi is about what a human would do with such technology and more importantly, how the reanimated subject (Shepard in this case) would deal with it.

Sci-fi is less about the technology and more about the psychological, sociological and ethical consequences of such technology.

A good example of this would be the anime Ghost In The Shell. It's about a female police officer named Motoko who died but is brought back to life in a synthetic body. Her new android form makes her better, stronger and faster than ever, but she can't help but questioning her identity. Is she really Motoko, or just an AI copy of herself? Is she still human, or just a robot? Ar her memories her own memories, or just copies of her mer memories? Are her memories even real? These are all questions that consume Motoko and over the course of te anime these questions are answered slowly but surely.

Now THAT is proper sci-fi. THAT is how project Lazarus in Mass Effect 2 should have been handled. But as it is right now, project Lazarus is just a lazy, stupid and silly reset button.




:lol: Actually, I understood you very well, only I didn't see (and still don't see) why your qoute did debunk my post, because.. well... it did not. :)
In this case... you totally missed the point of my post and misunderstood me... oh well... and "b.ch please!" :D, don't be so condescending... it doesn't look good. 

I absolutely agree with you... but, it won't make ME2 or 3 less of a sci-fi. You can call it "****ty" sci-fi or say that you hate this low-grade kind of sci-fi, or that it doesn't fit your taste, but you can't deny that it is sci-fi. That was the point of my post. I still can't see how you can consider ME1 a "good" or "proper" sci-fi, when it is not any more proper than its sequels. 

I'm more of a philosophical sci-fi person myself... though I hate anime to the death... but more of a book and film person. And I could go all stiff upper lip myself if I wished to and started to tell you that what you're talking about is not sci-fi, but Tarkovsky is or that there's no sci-fi beyond the 70s sci-fi literature (only the things written before)... etc. etc. ... but I don't. Because I'm not here to do that. This is a "stupid" but in its own right brilliant game's forum, so I'm here to discuss about it. Because I like it... wow... surprising and disgraceful, isn't it? Otherwise I wouldn't be here. :lol: But I enjoy it for what it is: a game which tries to push its limits (story telling) and tries to reach out to other genres... even tries to be something more or other than a game at some points. I find it innovative, ballsy, experimental and very entertaining. But it is just a game. So if I want some real hard-core sci-fi then I walk up to my bookshelf or to a local library.

Get my point now, or the point of my former post?

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .