382 réponses à ce sujet

[XX-Pyro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I'm not saying people can't complain or critizice (constructively,)...

that is important thing...is there what we called "constructive criticism"?

actually, there is no distinction between constructive or non-constructive....it is depends on how the one who got criticized perceive it

how you define "constructive" and "non-constructive"? Critic is critic, anywhere....bashing is bashing...these two different thing.

"your writing suck, improve it" <--- can this considered as "constructive criticism"?

"your writing is good, keep up the good work, but Anders suck" <--- or this one?

Neither are constructive in my opinion. Constructive criticism is when you point out something that could be improved upon and offer possible solutions.

For your Anders example, this would be what I consider constructive: I really enjoyed your writing of companions in DA2, however I feel Anders lacked depth in his romance.

That would be constructive in my opinion. You also left out about six other lines in the post you quoted.

[FlamingBoy]

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Icesong wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Its not that much because a video game is a luxury item that you do not need to survive and no one put a gun to your head and forced you to pay for a game.

You're right, it's not much money because it's a luxury and you don't need it to survive. Also, no one threatened to kill you so how expensive could it really be?

Quite right. And if you can afford video games, and something to play them on you are alot better off than 90 percent of the world.

If I was a snarkier person I would point out that this would prove that videogames are expensive since 90% of the world can't afford them.

but quite frankly what people cannot or can afford is irrelevant, only the fact one person paid for goods and/or services and therefore a contract was made.

Don`t you get an X amount of time to return a product you arn`t satisfied with, though?

no, your assuming that all places bioware does business in people have equal rights


also the x amount of time is a company policy not a legal policy
there are other issues for example time invested.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Nizaris1 wrote...

how you define "constructive" and "non-constructive"? Critic is critic, anywhere....bashing is bashing...these two different thing.

"your writing suck, improve it" <--- can this considered as "constructive criticism"?

"your writing is good, keep up the good work, but Anders suck" <--- or this one?

No to both contructive criticism requires the critic to detail what was good or bad

[Drone223]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

it is on topic

Gaider and Bioware react unprofessionally...

You can only act professionally for so long before people making the same complaints or attacks force you to just avoid them. I don't think it's his job to come on the forums and discuss his writings with us- that was our privelage. We lost it. 

I'm not saying people can't complain or critizice (constructively,) that's how improvements are made. But trading insults and the other toxicity here does ruin the atmosphere. I enjoy reading and participating in debates on people's (and often my own) opinions, because it helps me see the games from a different angle or perhaps consider something I hadn't before- that doesn't mean that when I find something I don't like (for example the re-used maps in DA2 make me want to scream) I make fifty threads about it and PM the design team that they should be fired.

QFT with the bolded, when the attacks become too personal devs may not bother with interacting with community members at all.

Modifié par Drone223, 10 janvier 2013 - 07:52 .

[addiction21]

XX-Pyro wrote...


For your Anders example, this would be what I consider constructive: I really enjoyed your writing of companions in DA2, however I feel Anders lacked depth in his romance.

Add in how and why the person felt it lacked depth then that's something a developer can work with. Just saying it lacked depth amounts to just saying it bad. The developer does not know what constitutes depth to the person or why they felt that why so it leaves them little to think on or do.

[Rawgrim]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Icesong wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Its not that much because a video game is a luxury item that you do not need to survive and no one put a gun to your head and forced you to pay for a game.

You're right, it's not much money because it's a luxury and you don't need it to survive. Also, no one threatened to kill you so how expensive could it really be?

Quite right. And if you can afford video games, and something to play them on you are alot better off than 90 percent of the world.

If I was a snarkier person I would point out that this would prove that videogames are expensive since 90% of the world can't afford them.

but quite frankly what people cannot or can afford is irrelevant, only the fact one person paid for goods and/or services and therefore a contract was made.

Don`t you get an X amount of time to return a product you arn`t satisfied with, though?

no, your assuming that all places bioware does business in people have equal rights


also the x amount of time is a company policy not a legal policy
there are other issues for example time invested.

Well is it a legal policy for customers to be allowed to harrass a seller when he or she doesn`t like a product they made?

Also alot of time seems to be invested additionally, on complaining about a product online. More so that the actual time spent on playing the game itself. So it kind of comes down to being able to "cut ones losses" as well.

[XX-Pyro]

addiction21 wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...


For your Anders example, this would be what I consider constructive: I really enjoyed your writing of companions in DA2, however I feel Anders lacked depth in his romance.

Add in how and why the person felt it lacked depth then that's something a developer can work with. Just saying it lacked depth amounts to just saying it bad. The developer does not know what constitutes depth to the person or why they felt that why so it leaves them little to think on or do.

I had originally written more but my net got cut out at University for a few minutes and couldn't be bothered resposting, I'm also not one to ever complain about writing so I wouldn't know how to use that particular example. I did the best I could but I'm just letting you know I agree with that.

[Twisted Path]

Gaider's right about a lot of things in that post but this is chief among them:

Perhaps there is also something to be said about whether the games BioWare makes still satisfy our core fans.

Bioware really seems to have stopped making the sort of games they used to be known for (I guess in an attempt to aim for mass appeal,) and it's turned off a lot of people who were fans of the older games and created a big divide between them and people who are fans of the newer couple of games. I think that's a big source of the divisiveness.

That and the usual thing with nerds on the internet always liking to argue about obtuse stuff.

[XX-Pyro]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Constructive criticism is when you point out something that could be improved upon and offer possible solutions.

Then it is not a criticism, it is a suggestion.

what Bioware and David Gaider want to hear is a praise on their work and suggestions...

For your Anders example, this would be what I consider constructive: I really enjoyed your writing of companions in DA2, however I feel Anders lacked depth in his romance.

this is not a critic...this is praise and demand

Suggestions are where the CONSTRUCTIVE part of criticism comes in. Otherwise it's, you know, just criticism. Your game sucked is not constructive criticism. As for your second point, I honestly don't see how you consider that a demand in any way. At all. Anyways I don't want a three page argument so I'll end it here.

Also sorry for double post to whoever it may bother/if it's against rules. (Don't think there's a multi-quote function.)

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Constructive criticism is when you point out something that could be improved upon and offer possible solutions.

Then it is not a criticism, it is a suggestion.

what Bioware and David Gaider want to hear is a praise on their work and suggestions...

For your Anders example, this would be what I consider constructive: I really enjoyed your writing of companions in DA2, however I feel Anders lacked depth in his romance.

this is not a critic...this is praise and demand

1. its criticism followed by a constructive suggestion.

2. Everyone who creates something wants people to be happy about it. Thats not exclusive for people who work at Bioware. I am sure you, as a musician, enjoys people cheering for you when you play too. instead of booing, or whatever.

3. Nothing is demanded there. Something thats lacking is merely pointed out in a friendly manner.

[Femlob]

Constructive criticism is awesome if those subject to said criticism are actually paying attention to it. Which happens way less often than it ideally should. The DA team seems to be listening; we'll know for sure by the time DA:I hits the shelves.

The ME team is a wholly different matter. There was a metric ton of constructive criticism during the first few months after ME3 was released, and all of it was summarily ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant. People can and will only remain constructive in the face of villification followed by absolute silence for so long.

[XX-Pyro]

Femlob wrote...

Constructive criticism is awesome if those subject to said criticism are actually paying attention to it. Which happens way less often than it ideally should. The DA team seems to be listening; we'll know for sure by the time DA:I hits the shelves.

The ME team is a wholly different matter. There was a metric ton of constructive criticism during the first few months after ME3 was released, and all of it was summarily ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant. People can and will only remain constructive in the face of villification followed by absolute silence for so long.

I don't play ME so can't speak for that team at all, but I thought the DA2 DLC took a lot of criticism and did a good job with it. That's my personal opinion. It was definitely a step in the right direction. 

[Rawgrim]

Femlob wrote...

Constructive criticism is awesome if those subject to said criticism are actually paying attention to it. Which happens way less often than it ideally should. The DA team seems to be listening; we'll know for sure by the time DA:I hits the shelves.

The ME team is a wholly different matter. There was a metric ton of constructive criticism during the first few months after ME3 was released, and all of it was summarily ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant. People can and will only remain constructive in the face of villification followed by absolute silence for so long.

You make some good points. But picture this: You get 200 different constructive criticisms. All of wich goin in different directions. Wich ones do you pick and go with?

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

2. Everyone who creates something wants people to be happy about it. Thats not exclusive for people who work at Bioware. I am sure you, as a musician, enjoys people cheering for you when you play too. instead of booing, or whatever.

if people boo me on the stage, i just laughed...hell i almost fall on the stage you know, and i laughed.

I will say "sorry guys, i got fever", if the audience becomes a mob, then i leave the stage...if the audience hate me, there is nothing i can do...but revised everything.

But if there is a guy or a girl i meet somewhere say "i have watched you play, it suck", i take it, i accept it...at least that guy/girl watch me playing and think it suck...better than no one hear me playing at all

If you get booed off the stage enough times, you won`t get invited to play too much later. Your audience would disapear because of a "bad reputation". So i would think it would be in your interest to get cheered, rather than booed.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Nizaris1 wrote...

They disguised it with "constructive criticism" but what they really want is praise and suggestion

The fans MUST love their work, the suggest to make it better

While the fans CANNOT hate their work and complaint why it suck

See what i mean?

Thats not what I see when I read a comment like:

we listen to constructive criticism from a company what I see is:

Tell us what you don't like and why because then we have a chance at addressing the issue

put it this way if someone came up to you and said "your music sucks" there isn't anything you can do with that information but if the same person said "I didn't like that piece because of x,y and z" you could look at those areas and make adjustments accordingly

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If you get booed off the stage enough times, you won`t get invited to play too much later. Your audience would disapear because of a "bad reputation". So i would think it would be in your interest to get cheered, rather than booed.

that is why we cannot react, "add the oil into fire" like David Gaider and Bioware did

We cannot change what others view of our work with excuses...when they say "you play suck", i just can admit it, it is suck, admit it

Do not expect people changed view by saying "I got fever"....then "you guys are toxins"

What if 500 people tell you it sucks, and 80 000 tell you it was ok, and 800 people tells you its great? Do you listen to the 500 who tells you it sucks, without telling you why it sucks? Do you then change your music based on those 500 people who tells you it sucks?

[Icesong]

Suck. Understood.

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

put it this way if someone came up to you and said "your music sucks" there isn't anything you can do with that information but if the same person said "I didn't like that piece because of x,y and z" you could look at those areas and make adjustments accordingly

the one who say "your music suck" doesn't need to explain or give reason why it suck...because the first thing is what the person feel about it...it is suck...that is what important. Meaning the whole thing suck...i must create something new.

the one who say "i love your music, but the way you playing solo is suck", are loyal fans, who love me, they only focus on how i play instead of the song i played. That is "praise and demand". They praise my work and demand better

Understand?

So if I tell you your opinions suck (for example) will you change your opinions because people who tell you things suck are allways right?

[AlanC9]

Twisted Path wrote...

Bioware really seems to have stopped making the sort of games they used to be known for (I guess in an attempt to aim for mass appeal,) and it's turned off a lot of people who were fans of the older games and created a big divide between them and people who are fans of the newer couple of games. I think that's a big source of the divisiveness.

Bio always aimed at mass appeal. D&D is the lowest-common-denominator of PnP RPGs, Star Wars is the lowest common denominator of sci-fi. I don't really see much difference in the current generation excpt that the ME games got away from inventory and loot a bit.

[DreGregoire]

Nizaris1 wrote...

"your writing suck, improve it" <--- can this considered as "constructive criticism"?

"your writing is good, keep up the good work, but Anders suck" <--- or this one?

No neither is constructive criticism because you haven't said what about it you would like to see changed and saying something sucked is an attack and an insult. Attacking and/or insulting a person and their work is not constructive because it does not encourage a person to improve, but instead belittles them and/or their work.

To make it constructive it is better to say:
"I don't like the way you wrote Anders' character because [insert the reason you didn't like Anders or what about him you didn't like]." 

Modifié par DreGregoire, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:35 .