382 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

Nizaris1 wrote...

put it this way if someone came up to you and said "your music sucks" there isn't anything you can do with that information but if the same person said "I didn't like that piece because of x,y and z" you could look at those areas and make adjustments accordingly

the one who say "your music suck" doesn't need to explain or give reason why it suck...because the first thing is what the person feel about it...it is suck...that is what important. Meaning the whole thing suck...i must create something new.

the one who say "i love your music, but the way you playing solo is suck", are loyal fans, who love me, they only focus on how i play instead of the song i played. That is "praise and demand". They praise my work and demand better

Understand?

That's just plain stupid, and is a dodge of what is a legitimate responsibility you have in giving criticism.

You do in fact need to explain why you think something sucks so people can see a reason behind it and improve. Otherwise there will never be an ability to improve anything becasue there will be no guidelines or framework for how to improve. Also, your way of doing things allows people to never need to think or question anything, since all they need to do is go "I don't like that" and never address it. It's like not giving a kid any vegatables when they grow up because "they don't like it", never mind the kid has no real reason to not like it, but he doesn't like it, therefore it must be right.

Your assessment of a loyal fan is also off. You seem to equate being a civil and rational human being with being a fanboi. This seems flawed in my opinion, as a person may simply be being polite and treating the person they are critiquing as another human being, and not a nameless and faceless entity who should be torn down. If the person does like things done, than of course they will mention the things they liked. If they don't like something, they can just say "I didn't like this part becasue [insert reason here]" or "I enjoyed some parts of this game a lot, such as [insert things here], but I found these other things to be rather bad becasue [reasons here]". Instead of just "I love everything you do" or "You suck and you should be fired".

Do you kinda see where I'm coming from?

[Wonderllama4]

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy..." - the Bioware Social Network

David's post was 100% truth, and the reason why I hate coming to this board too. I think Bioware should just shut this place down... permanently!

"Millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror... and were suddenly silenced."

[Rawgrim]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy..." - the Bioware Social Network

David's post was 100% truth, and the reason why I hate coming to this board too. I think Bioware should just shut this place down... permanently!

"Millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror... and were suddenly silenced."

"This board is too remote for an effective demonstration. Set your course for the Bethesda boards!"

"You may fire when ready!"

[Paul Sedgmore]

Nizaris1 wrote...

put it this way if someone came up to you and said "your music sucks" there isn't anything you can do with that information but if the same person said "I didn't like that piece because of x,y and z" you could look at those areas and make adjustments accordingly

the one who say "your music suck" doesn't need to explain or give reason why it suck...because the first thing is what the person feel about it...it is suck...that is what important. Meaning the whole thing suck...i must create something new.

the one who say "i love your music, but the way you playing solo is suck", are loyal fans, who love me, they only focus on how i play instead of the song i played. That is "praise and demand". They praise my work and demand better

Understand?

Do I understand? not really no. If I was in that position I'd be thinking "That person didn't like it but I have no idea why so I can't improve on that but this person likes what I am currently doing but has raised an area I can work on so I  will concentrate on that" there is a big difference between constructive criticism (That was good but this needs work) and praise and demand (that was good the next piece must have this)

If the criticism has no constructive feedback then no information has been learned about what worked and what didn't which means that the next work you produce could be even worse for the person who said that sucks because you could have taken away what they did like in the first place and added something the don't like to replace it.

[Rawgrim]

Makes you wonder why movie companies screen movies for audiences before making the final editing work...

[AtreiyaN7]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Just keeping you honest, unfortunately the post history only goes so far back to check your claims more thoroughly

the passive aggresive tone of your post (if thats the case of course) is unneeded since it was you who made the claim in order to make your argument more convincing/credibility by placing such an opinion you opened yourself up to be criticised and called out.

I'm utterly lacking in patience these days with people here, not to mention being sarcastic by default when annoyed. You questioning my veracity about my self-imposed policy of largely ignoring the ME3 general forum these days (with certain exceptions) because I can't stand it anymore falls into the really, really annoying category, hence my thiny-veiled sarcasm.

I've previously gone through way too many inane experiences here, such as having to defend myself in that cesspit because of my Miranda avatar - which goes to show how completely idiotic some people on the BSN can be. And now you want to turn a non-issue (me making a rare exception) into some sort of issue. *rolleyes*

Feel free to question my honesty all day long if you want - I know that I have integrity and don't really give a flying fig what anyone else wants to believe. However, I'm pretty sure that anyone who has been in ME3 forums since the ending controversy first blew up (and probably before that) is probably aware that my appearances in the ME3 general forum have effectively dropped down to nil because I can't stand most of the people there and the unending whining (something which I've been quite blunt about after I was finally fed up with it all).

If you want, you can always watch me like a hawk and monitor the ME3 general forums to see if I post there with any great frequency for the next few months. Then maybe you can prove that I'm a habitual liar and score some points on the forums or whatever. *rolleyes more*

P.S. The preceding paragraph was chock full of blatant sarcasm.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Rawgrim wrote...

Makes you wonder why movie companies screen movies for audiences before making the final editing work...

To be honest a lot of the feedback from such things is useless but the responses you can use are priceless as it helps make the product better.

The last game I worked on the feedback sessions had a less than 10% actionable feedback the rest were tossed because there was no information we could use to improve it

[Paul Sedgmore]

Nizaris1 wrote...

What if 500 people tell you it sucks, and 80 000 tell you it was ok, and 800 people tells you its great? Do you listen to the 500 who tells you it sucks, without telling you why it sucks? Do you then change your music based on those 500 people who tells you it sucks?

like i said, majority win. Remember what we discuss earlier about art and democracy?

So when there are people say it suck, then it suck, that people no need to explain why it suck, it is not their job to point out the suck part

1. no piece of creative work will ever please everyone

2. Those people who say something sucks without an explination can not and should not expect the artist to change to suit them

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

What if 500 people tell you it sucks, and 80 000 tell you it was ok, and 800 people tells you its great? Do you listen to the 500 who tells you it sucks, without telling you why it sucks? Do you then change your music based on those 500 people who tells you it sucks?

like i said, majority win. Remember what we discuss earlier about art and democracy?

So when there are people say it suck, then it suck, that people no need to explain why it suck, it is not their job to point out the suck part

But its their job to walk up to you and tell you it sucks? Seems like an utter pointless thing to do if it won`t change anything at all.

The heart of any art is an individual expressing him\\herself. If that is a democracy he or she is just expressing other people. And that has nothing to do with individualism.

[Firky]

I'm really enjoying DG's blog. I hope he keeps writing it.

I got used to being called one of every type of idiot, for liking DA2. Then I didn't like MotA and got jumped on for that, too.

I think what rings most true in there, for me, is that everyone thinks they're right all the time on gamer boards. I'd prefer to talk to people who could just make their point without having to defend it to the death. I can appreciate a well made point I don't agree with.

And, "gamer entitlement" is a funny one. I consider myself a polite, reasonable person, yet I can totally identify with gamer entitlement. It's like, I played through Baldur's Gate 2 six times, man, where the hell is my isometric camera? I don't that that's a reasonable thing to demand, but I certainly do feel that kind of thing, from time to time.

I think it's partly because games played a really important role in my life, for many years, so they have a really skewed importance in my mind. But, I think a lot of gamers experience that, too. Certainly people I know have had similar experiences.

Edit: Thanks DG. Keep up the good work.

Modifié par Firky, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:22 .

[AlexanderCousland]

classic case of :
"If you cant take the heat, get the **** out the kitchen!" (seems to be what gaider did)

Seriously, everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, everyone' s opinion is not entitled to respect AND neither is anyone's gender, race, or religion. Do i wish everyone respected eachother and viewed eachother' s opinion' s and thoughts with the same value they held their own? without question I wish that were so, however, reality is a cruel beast.

If you create something you want people to enjoy, you must do so knowing that the criticisms of your creation will not always come in a form that makes you feel "cozy inside", nor should you expect people to share their view' s in a manner you personally deem "socially acceptable" because that kind of behavior is always subjective. People have opinions; thats how clique' s are formed, agendas created, Countries are built, and War' s started. Opinions are the beautiful flaw of human essence, expecting my essence to be delivered in the same manner as your' s or anyone else' s can only result in frustration. Everyone has an opinion, learn that and DEAL WITH IT because Life is a cruel bargain and beautiful companion we have no choice but to deal with.

[The Elder King]

Constructive criticism doesn't require that you praise the creator of something (in this case, Bioware).
You can even say that you didn't like most parts of the game you played. You have to explain the reason why you didn't like it, and possibly suggest a different solution (though this isn't required). And you have to use a civil tone,
Saying that a game sucks, or that Bioware (in this case) sucks, or that they're the drones of EA, that they sold their soul to money etc, without adding anything about why you didn't like the game, isn't constructive criticism.

[FlamingBoy]

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Icesong wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Its not that much because a video game is a luxury item that you do not need to survive and no one put a gun to your head and forced you to pay for a game.

You're right, it's not much money because it's a luxury and you don't need it to survive. Also, no one threatened to kill you so how expensive could it really be?

Quite right. And if you can afford video games, and something to play them on you are alot better off than 90 percent of the world.

If I was a snarkier person I would point out that this would prove that videogames are expensive since 90% of the world can't afford them.

but quite frankly what people cannot or can afford is irrelevant, only the fact one person paid for goods and/or services and therefore a contract was made.

Don`t you get an X amount of time to return a product you arn`t satisfied with, though?

no, your assuming that all places bioware does business in people have equal rights


also the x amount of time is a company policy not a legal policy
there are other issues for example time invested.

Well is it a legal policy for customers to be allowed to harrass a seller when he or she doesn`t like a product they made?

Also alot of time seems to be invested additionally, on complaining about a product online. More so that the actual time spent on playing the game itself. So it kind of comes down to being able to "cut ones losses" as well.

based on your responses your a big believer in 2 wrongs make a right

[Rawgrim]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I like to use the kid and vegetable examples.

The kid hate the vegetables, mommy cook vegetable for dinner. The kid protest, "it is suck", why? because the kid hate it. It is not important to know what the suck part in the cooking, the kid look at it and say "it suck"

Mommy say, "No it not suck, it is just you don't know how good it is, i will add more spinach in it....now eat!"

The kid say "No, i don't like it"

Mommy say "You are a bad girl!"

The other kid love vegetables, but only don't like cucumber in the recipe, the kid say "mom, i like your cooking, but i don't like the cucumber in it"

Mommy say "okay, next time i remove the cucumber"

The first kid is not the loyal fan but a customer, she eat others of moms cooking, she just don't like the recent cooking because she feel it suck.

The second kid is a loyal customer, she like everything the mom cook, she demand the cucumber removed. That is "praise and demand"

So what you are saying is that since an immature child does things a certain way, and behaves in a certain way, so should a mature adult?

Whenever i am a dinner guest at someones house, I don`t harass them and aim personal attacks at them if they are serving a certain kind of sauce with their steak. I put some of the sauce on the food anyway, and eat it. I didn`t pay for the dinner, and neither did the kid in your example.

[Rawgrim]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Icesong wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Its not that much because a video game is a luxury item that you do not need to survive and no one put a gun to your head and forced you to pay for a game.

You're right, it's not much money because it's a luxury and you don't need it to survive. Also, no one threatened to kill you so how expensive could it really be?

Quite right. And if you can afford video games, and something to play them on you are alot better off than 90 percent of the world.

If I was a snarkier person I would point out that this would prove that videogames are expensive since 90% of the world can't afford them.

but quite frankly what people cannot or can afford is irrelevant, only the fact one person paid for goods and/or services and therefore a contract was made.

Don`t you get an X amount of time to return a product you arn`t satisfied with, though?

no, your assuming that all places bioware does business in people have equal rights


also the x amount of time is a company policy not a legal policy
there are other issues for example time invested.

Well is it a legal policy for customers to be allowed to harrass a seller when he or she doesn`t like a product they made?

Also alot of time seems to be invested additionally, on complaining about a product online. More so that the actual time spent on playing the game itself. So it kind of comes down to being able to "cut ones losses" as well.

based on your responses your a big believer in 2 wrongs make a right

Where exactly does it say that?

[Aeowyn]

rapscallioness wrote...

....hmmm well, it's not just the BSN. For example, the person that asked Gaider that question, I thought they were being very rude. I avoid you like the plague cuz you're utterly gross---oh---IMO.

I personally found that oh so very hilarious considering that the user is on Tumblr, and Tumblr is probably 1000 times worse than BSN. The site where you can barely say "Hi" without having someone get offended by it and spout large adjectives without really knowing what they mean.

Anyway. I can agree with Gaider's reply to some extent. The forums have gotten worse, and many of the people I got to know when I first signed up to BSN have either left, or are just lurking nowadays. The in-depth conversations about lore etc. seems to have been replaced with a lot of hate threads and passionate discussions that can go overboard.

On the other hand, the forum is here and I think that in order for it to become somewhat pleasant again BioWare need to make some changes. More moderators and stricter rules and a better reporting system. I have no idea where a reported post ends up on this forum. Where I work we have a hidden section on our forum where all the reported posts end up. It's easy to manage those reports and that forum has just as many, if not more, active users than BSN.

Perhaps cleaning the forum up a bit would help stop the downward spiral.

[Firky]

I have two little kids and they can criticise my salad as politely as they like but I'm not providing an alternative to cucumber. It's healthy, I bought it, I prepared it and if they don't eat it, they can be a cucumber sized portion of hungry for the rest of the night.

Maybe like the fact that it's not cost effective, within BioWare's larger plans to do, x, y, z, no matter how cogently and politely someone might express the desire for it, like an iso camera. I dunno. I can't turn down running with a kids eating their veges analogy.

[PaulSX]

I think the game designers should just stay away from BSN and just leave QAs here to do their job. Also Bioware should stop trying to please the fanbase. you can not please everyone and never will. Just do your job and let the market to decide whether it's worthy or not.

[AlexanderCousland]

The forum' s need not be policed. If you prevent people from having opinions or discussing something you (or the moderator) are personally uncomfortable with then it' s not really productive at all, your just suppressing the issue. IMHO forums need only be shutdown when Slur' s or Insults start being tossed around.

[Dominus]

While I didn't always feel this way about BSN, I currently share his sentiments. I've spent a very small percentage of time on the main game forums as of late, and it's fairly scarce to find meaningful, healthy dialogue between other users. I can recall one other long-time developer mentioning the increasing quantity of destructive criticism growing on the BioBoards. The fact that this has recently grown as an article on Kotaku, while somewhat unsurprising, is not a great sign.

I can say this: The role of each individual on the BioBoards provides the opportunity to improve it and make it less of a 'toxic' environment - An individual can lead by example. What would the Mass Effect 2 Boards have looked like without Phaedon?

Modifié par DominusVita, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:19 .

[daft inquisitor]

Avaflame wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

Good read. Shame he doesn't frequent the forums as often. I may be in a minority on this particular point but his humour always made me laugh.

Indeed I probably go out of my way to read Dev comments 10% hopeful there's new information 90% because I enjoy reading them.

A few hours late, but I feel this way exactly. The devs have a lot of fun with the games, and a lot of them have fun with the PR side of it. That is, when things don't turn sour.

I think, as a general rule, they like talking about their work with the fans. It's when people go overboard that it causes issues.

I, for one, am eternally thankful for every dev that wades through the slog here and continues to enlighten and entertain us, and even those who are insane enough to engage in discussions related to game issues.

Props, guys. You deserve it. <3:wizard:

[Seboist]

DominusVita wrote...
What would the Mass Effect 2 Boards have looked like without Phaedon?

It would have had less brownnosing for one.