382 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

That was a good read. One good thing about blogs is that you can expound on a specific issue without concern of bogging down the reader, which can happen on a discussion board, leading to generally shorter posts.

There have been a few times where I've gotten carried away. I think the one I feel most bad about was where I referred to the Anders female romance dialogue in Act 1 as melodramatic tripe, or something along those lines. I can't do anything about it now, but I keep it in my mind as a reminder to moderate myself in the future.

To me, the most interesting bit was:

Once the tipping point is passed, you’re left with the extremes… those who hate, and those who dislike the haters enough to endure the toxic atmosphere to try and combat them. Each clash between those groups drives more of the others away.

I've observed this myself, first with the DA2 forums over the past years, and then with these DA3 forums, as an initial wave of fans who returned has dissipated somewhat, and we're left with our same groups of people. I do think he did overlook the middle-of-the-roaders though; those who are pretty moderate, but opinionated, and hang around because they enjoy discussion of the franchise, whether that is lore or game mechanics.

Finally, this is something that bothers me quite a bit:

It’s especially hard when someone takes something you’ve said and twists it, and then misrepresents it to others as what you actually said.. and how would they know otherwise? Reference that misrepresentation and, as far as anyone’s concerned, I may as well have said it.

This is the reason I try to use quotes and source links as much as possible. I very rarely attempt to reference what a dev has said without it, and I also ask for sources and quotes from other users. The game of telephone is especially egregious on the internet, where, if it's written down it must be true! The worst has to be quoting gaming "news" sites that are posting unconfirmed leaks from supposed anonymous sources, basically rumors, which get reposted on forums as if they are fact. I'm sure that is really frustrating for the devs to see, and it's a wonder they even bother coming here at all sometimes.

[ianvillan]

I agree with David Gaider that there is a problem with the BSN and that it must be hard for the Devs to post on the forums.

Bioware must also take a small share in some of the blame for fan negativity, like when a ME character was killed off on twitter and then was replaced by a games journalist for no decernable reason it makes fans upset.

or when Bioware was doing pre-release interviews for DA2 they would say how bad Origins was in almost every aspect and how DA2 had improved Origins in art, combat, story, dialogue and environments but when it seems to some fans that what they changed was not as good fans get upset because it seems Bioware was saying if you liked Origins you were wrong because DA2 is better.

Bioware cut out the isometric view even though they said it was a major part of tactical play but gave no reason for the cut or even discussed why they never had it in the game, the even were saying days before the release of DA2 that isometric view would still be in the game.

Now I am not agreeing with the attacks and the hostel atmosphere of the BSN but Bioware can also help change it some of the problems.

Also no more things like Bioware Bizzares which says that certain fans are not part of the comunity.

[Urzon]

It was a nice read, but i'm wondering one thing though. If Mr. Gaider is only the second minister of snark country...

Who's the Prime Minister!?

Modifié par Urzon, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:44 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Remember when they made it a requirement to have a registered game to post?

That' s when they cut down on the criticism on BSN wether it was negative, positive, or constructive.
It was a good read, and indeed forumites tend to get hostile sometimes but IMO blogging about how you dont like what certain people say about you or your work so you avoid them comes off to me as a little cowardly. however, I only say that because opinions come in different forms and as a creator of content you must be prepared to deal with every person who has indulged themselves in your work.

[Commander Kurt]

Common, let's all sing "We shall overcome" (I know all you swedish fans get it).

But frankly, I didn't really need to read the blog to know this, Allan S stated something similar before disappearing. And it's such a shame.

I honestly love these forums. The discussions make me see things in a whole new light, and DA2 has become a much more enjoyable experiance due to this. I just wish that people would realize that their negativity comes with a price. I respect the fact that people who are dissapointed want to be heard, but you're doing it at other people's expence. Perhaps metacritic is a better channel if you only want to show your dissatisfaction with the product without having a grown-up discussion about it?

We really do have a good thing going here, and I hope it can last.

[Wulfram]

The tone of a discussion is to a large degree created by the subject matter. I don't think you'll find a "positive" discussion of DA2 anywhere - bringing it up is a sure fire way to invite derision.

And this forum basically exist to discuss DA2 at the moment, since we don't have enough information to talk about DA3 except from the starting place of the previous games. And asking what the Inquisition is.

edit:  Release a game that can generate for itself some good positive buzz from the core fans, and things'll get a lot nicer around here.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:05 .

[daft inquisitor]

Commander Kurt wrote...

We really do have a good thing going here, and I hope it can last.

We haven't had a good thing here in a very long time. I still remember coming around here in the days of NWN. Well, not "here" per-se, but the Bioware forums. Back then, it was pretty nice.

However, I've only been here (on the new forums) for about a week. And... it's nuts. I've seen worse places by far, yeah, but this is also very, VERY far from some of the best communities I've been a part of.

I don't like it here. I really, really don't. But I stick around because, 1) it's a good way to waste time, 2) I get to hear and learn a lot about the games that I never heard before and make me think differently about it, 3) there is actually some news on DA3 from time to time, and 4) a part of me feels like I might actually be able to make a change for the better (though I sincerely doubt it, I at least want to try).

I don't expect I'll stay around here very long, for many reasons, but the environment is definitely one of the big ones. I'd honestly give anything to have the old BW forums back. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I'm actually a bit infuriated with the mods at the moment because SOMEONE erased the Unconfirmed Rumors thread. Not locked. ERASED. No warning. No "this is becoming spammy". Nope, just boop, gone. No idea who did it or why.

Bad show.

Seriously? I was wondering where that had gone.

If you're sure, and want it back, ask Stan about it via PM. We've sometimes gotten threads back before by using the right approach.

I did.  No dice.

Oh well. :/

[Selene Moonsong]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I don't like vegetables when i was a kid, i hate it, but today i eat more vegetables, i feel incomplete when there is no vegetable, feel like being a barbarian or uncivilized if there is no vegetables in the menu.t... *much snippage*

This sub-topic conversation has been going on for quite a few pages and is amounting PMs in a public forum.

Please feel free to discussin PMs instead of here as it is just going round and round anyway.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:58 .

[_- Songlian -]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

BSN can certainly become a vicious place. Yet I've managed to have interesting and reasonable conversations here, too. Maybe I just hang out in the right threads. Or don't go to far with the arguments. Or actually care to realize that just because someone is criticising what I've said, that doesn't mean they're idiots.

I'm not being the devil's advocate here, but we should just be honest and admit that, when it came to the fans/devs dialogue, at some point both sides erred. You can't have a match unless there's someone to throw the ball back at you. And I'll just leave it at that.

Modifié par - Songlian -, 10 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .

[InfinitePaths]

I hate people who are at the DA:I speculation forums who don't have any interest for the game but only to
A:troll
B:complain how DA2 sucked and you never trust bioware again
C:Find arguments to get in becouse they are bored.

[AlexanderCousland]

- Songlian - wrote...

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

BSN can certainly become a vicious place. Yet I've managed to have interesting and reasonable conversations here, too. Maybe I just hang out in the right threads. Or don't go to far with the arguments. Or actually care to realize that just because someone is criticising what I've said, that doesn't mean they're idiots.

I'm not being the devil's advocate here, but we should just be honest and admit that, when it came to the fans/devs dialogue, at some point both side's erred. You can't have a match unless there's someone to throw the ball back at you. And I'll just leave it at that.

.
Amen to that Sister/Brother....

I mean i agree.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Nizaris1 wrote...

What i am saying is, the provider provide, if the customer don't like what you provide, and complaint, do not react like the customer is an enemy. You make your product for who? For the customer to buy and enjoy it, if they hate it, what you want to say? The customers are wrong and bad? Toxins?

I think you may have missinterpreted what David was trying to say, he wasn't saying that people who have a complaint are wrong or bad but that the way that some are airing their complaint that is bad and unproductive and stops him from wanting to interact with fans. Along with the fact that this type of behaviour tends to be self fueling. 

It is one thing to be complaining about something and  a completely other thing to hurl abuse or start chanting "You Suck" at someone because we don't like or agree with something they have done. I hope that none of us here do the latter in real life, as it is a very disturbing and depressing place to be in if it is directed at you, and we shouldn't be doing it here

[nicethugbert]

There always exists a level of toxicity in game forums. But, what would makes a forum less or more toxic than usual depends on circumstances. In the case of Bioware, they enjoy making large changes to games in a series. This clashes with the fanbase's expectations, which Bioware has a hand in crafting. If play a part in building up an expectation, then fail to live upto it, people will be disappointed.  But, they do not always fix persistent complaints about their games. Also, they have a skinner box product in the case of ME3 MP. That is bound to increase unpleasant behavior. Grinding is eventually not good for one's mood.

Ever since EA bought Bioware, there is a cheapness to their games. Corner cutting is evident. Pardon me if that sounds toxic, but, recycled areas, inconsequential dialog/actions, anti-climactic endings, and skinner boxes will do that to a person.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 10 janvier 2013 - 12:36 .

[Little Princess Peach]

The Devs must see that the fans reactons are mostly due to the negativity of the games themselves, we pay good money for half rushed games, and it's only natural that people will get annoyed by it.

Agree'd some people go over the top mostly from the younger fans, but still if you give a Tiger half a stake, prepair to have a fight on you're hands, because that Tiger is still Hungry.

and just a quick note, people are upset with the masseffect team because they left traditional gaming and gave the fans something new, and most of the fans aren't ready for new things, they expect a boss fight, some pat on the back after playing X amount of hours, and when they did not get that all hell broke loose.

What I am trying to say is, new things are all well and good, but you have to do things at a slow pace when it comes to computer games, I belive games are art they fall under multimedia and that is a sub forum fo art it self.

New ideas are great just leave it for future generations that want it, at the moment all people seem to care about is killing a giant tin can and getting the worlds greatest achivement afterwards.

[Uccio]

I came to this forum for the sole reason to complain about DA2. It was something I have never done before, to sign in a game forum to give feedback. I tried to find a email account where I could send my opinion but was directed here. Before I was a silently happy Bio fan. But then DA2 happened.

I guess the reason for the overall negative athmosphere can (to some extend) be traced back to the reception of recent Bio games, DA2 and ME3. Right or wrong.

[AlexanderCousland]

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

I think you may have missinterpreted what David was trying to say, he wasn't saying that people who have a complaint are wrong or bad but that the way that some are airing their complaint that is bad and unproductive and stops him from wanting to interact with fans. Along with the fact that this type of behaviour tends to be self fueling. 

It is one thing to be complaining about something and  a completely other thing to hurl abuse or start chanting "You Suck" at someone because we don't like or agree with something they have done. I hope that none of us here do the latter in real life, as it is a very disturbing and depressing place to be in if it is directed at you, and we shouldn't be doing it here

Cant take the Heat then get out the Kitchen (Gaider did) 

people will express opinions in variety' s of different way' s about a product, learn that accept it and move on.

Im not giving any excuse for someone to act like a butthole, Im just saying some people ARE butthole' s. trying to police them will only exacerbate the effort to get them to change how they offer their opinons, thus creating more buttholliness, for lack of a better term. 

[Commander Kurt]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

We really do have a good thing going here, and I hope it can last.

We haven't had a good thing here in a very long time.

Maybe it's not what it once was, and maybe it never will be again. But we have dev's coming here joking around, or even giving us first-hand info. They've stickied a suggestion-thread and let us know from time to time that they are actually listening. To me, that's amazing. Also, I've avoided MP because it's just too unpleasant but within two days of writing here I was invited to play with a group of people by an awesome person. I always get answers to my questions, and generally smart and/or funny people are open for debate on various issues.

Don't loose sight on the good stuff and what it can be just because some posters are... less than constructive. Also, I hope you'll stick around. Positive voices are sorely needed.

[Selene Moonsong]

FreshIstay wrote...

Cant take the Heat then get out the Kitchen (Gaider did) 

people will express opinions in variety' s of different way' s about a product, learn that accept it and move on.

Im not giving any excuse for someone to act like a butthole, Im just saying some people ARE butthole' s. trying to police them will only exacerbate the effort to get them to change how they offer their opinons, thus creating more buttholliness, for lack of a better term. 

And those that express their opinons in a way that violate the Site Rules we all agreed to in order to post in these forums will be dealt with appropriately

[AlexanderCousland]

Ukki wrote...

I came to this forum for the sole reason to complain about DA2. It was something I have never done before, to sign in a game forum to give feedback. I tried to find a email account where I could send my opinion but was directed here. Before I was a silently happy Bio fan. But then DA2 happened.

I guess the reason for the overall negative athmosphere can (to some extend) be traced back to the reception of recent Bio games, DA2 and ME3. Right or wrong.

Youre right. The collective sentiment seems to be DA2 could/should  have been much better. 

I didnt really get the hang ups with ME3 though, i understand there was a ending controversy but I thought the rest of the game was great, i played all three and loved them all, but thats just me. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Cant take the Heat then get out the Kitchen (Gaider did) 

people will express opinions in variety' s of different way' s about a product, learn that accept it and move on.

Im not giving any excuse for someone to act like a butthole, Im just saying some people ARE butthole' s. trying to police them will only exacerbate the effort to get them to change how they offer their opinons, thus creating more buttholliness, for lack of a better term. 

And those that express their opinons in a way that violate the Site Rules we all agreed to in order to post in these forums will be dealt with appropriately

As they should be. 

[Fallstar]

You can see where he's coming from. I wonder what he means exactly when he describes the general attitude and atmosphere here as 'toxic'.

I don't know about ME, but one of the main problems with the DA boards is that DAO and DA2 have so many complete reversals of fundamental game mechanics. If you wanted to implement those changes, I think it would have been best to do so in a new IP. As is, you've got a bunch of people who are really passionate about DAO and loved that game, and a bunch of people who are really passionate about DA2 and loved that game.

The differences between the two games are just too major to ever please both groups (other than those who already liked both games of course). It's not like you just tried a different narrative structure, you also dramatically changed the art style, as well as the combat and dialogue mechanics; two of the key reasons many people play Bioware games.

About the only similarities between DA2 and DAO are the world and characters. The actual gameplay in DA2 feels like it comes from a different series to DAO.

[nightscrawl]

FreshIstay wrote...

Youre right. The collective sentiment seems to be DA2 could/should  have been much better.

I don't usually like the statements that lump all of the players together, but this is the best one I have seen. Even if you like DA2, as I do, I think you should still be able to admit that it wasn't perfect and things could be improved on.

That said, there is such a thing as constructive criticism. Many times complaints come off as just that, complaints, or worse, whining, particularly when a player doesn't get their own way about this or that feature.

DuskWarden wrote...

I wonder what he means exactly when he describes the general attitude and atmosphere here as 'toxic'.

Bashing people for having a different opinion or preference, calling devs liars, calling for devs to be fired, calling devs lazy, general name calling, conspiracy theories about EA or why Bioware would have such and such feature, and other things.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 janvier 2013 - 01:50 .