382 réponses à ce sujet

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I originally joined the social network so I could get my two cents in for the Dragon Age Questions of the month posts.

I think BSN is in a way a lot like other forums I have been to on the internet. There is a large capacity for civil and interesting discussions. But, the more negative side of things is what grabs people's attention, and there has been a lot of negativity.

I hope things will get better in the future though. I have left a lot of places because of increased negative trends. One of the first forums I ever joined was such a one. (I was also a lot younger, so my handling of the situation was less than sterling, making leaving an even better decision until I could mature a bit and gain some confidence and experience in my decision making.)

I think the idea of a place like this really appeals to me though. Even though some of them don't come often, I appreciate that the line of communication between the developers and even between fellow fans is open.

It was a very interesting article to read. Though I must admit, I always appreciate being able to read something by Gaider.

[Fast Jimmy]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Cant take the Heat then get out the Kitchen (Gaider did) 

people will express opinions in variety' s of different way' s about a product, learn that accept it and move on.

Im not giving any excuse for someone to act like a butthole, Im just saying some people ARE butthole' s. trying to police them will only exacerbate the effort to get them to change how they offer their opinons, thus creating more buttholliness, for lack of a better term. 

And those that express their opinons in a way that violate the Site Rules we all agreed to in order to post in these forums will be dealt with appropriately

But is it a matter of posters breaking site rules? That seems like it is fairly easily caught and stopped. If bans and thread locks could fix the problem, I don't think it would be a problem.

Its not the people who blatantly flame bait, who post crude images or who literally spam threads that create the negative atmosphere. There are a number of threads on this site right now which aren't in violation of the site rules, but which I won't step foot into because the comments in it are likely to make me frustrated and possibly post things I may regret.

Being obnoxious or purposefully obstinate just to get a reaction out of someone, or making blanket statements or assumptions about people who are of a certain opinion or stance, is not against the site rules. Maybe the forums would be better if they were, I don't know. But if they were, they would need more moderators, without a doubt.

[Dutchess]

I feel that Bioware plays the victim a bit too easily in all of this. You reap what you sow. Unfair behavior lead to unfair behavior in return, and outright lying to your customers I certainly consider unfair. "Shaping the city around you", "choices and consequences", and when the game is out they act very, very surprised that the game is not received as well as they thought it would be.

The Bioware employees have wasted the power that their word once carried. When the human only protagonist for DA3 was explained as necessary for the story, I honestly did not believe it anymore. After all, they claimed the same for the human protagonist in DA2, and I have seen little that justifies that explanation. It certainly did not contribute to a better story and a deeper character compared to DAO. So I don't believe it this time, and that's a shame.

I also am not entirely convinced that Bioware has learned of everything. Admitting that the recycled environments and combat waves were bad is easy enough. However, DA2's deeper problem was its story that just had too many moments that were not good. I could have gritted my teeth and waded through all the waves in all the recycled dungeons if the story was worth it. But is wasn't, and I still have not encountered a comment by Mr Gaider or somebody else that admitted that the writing has fallen short too.

It's not fair to complain that the environment is toxic when you have released the poison yourself.

[Fast Jimmy]

FenrirBlackDragon wrote...

I originally joined the social network so I could get my two cents in for the Dragon Age Questions of the month posts.

I'd like to point something out here... what the heck happened to these questions? They were one of the (VERY) few ways we could have a dialogue with Bioware besides the random dev popping into a thread. None of the questions were asking particularly revealing questions, so there was no chance of spoilers or things leaking out. It was just a dialogue about things. Structured dialogue would be my number #1 panacea to the toxic enviroment here.

Do you know how waters become toxic? They are stagnant, with no flow or movement. The BSN has become stagnant. We only have table crumbs of information (collected from other websites, not from information here, no less) about the future of Bioware games, including a game to be released in less than 12 months. 

We don't need info about ME4 or DA3 inherently. But making it feel like Bioware is talking, even if they are talking about something not related to their games, would help stir the waters. NOTE: a feeling that Bioware is LISTENING alone will not fix this. We do get that feeling (at least here in the DA forums). An actual dialogue with fans here (again, even non-game related topics would be welcome) would stir the waters and get new feelings, ideas and discussion. 

The Bioware Question of the Month was the best idea the devs had for the BSN in years. And it fizzled shortly afterwards. I think they should try and revive it. In addition, I think that if Bioware has a Social Networking stie capable of having blogs, then the Bioware Blog should be through here as well. Having nearly every form of communication go through other venues is not just insulting to the BSN faithful, but a gross indictment of the lack of capabilities of their own site.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd like to point something out here... what the heck happened to these questions? They were one of the (VERY) few ways we could have a dialogue with Bioware besides the random dev popping into a thread. None of the questions were asking particularly revealing questions, so there was no chance of spoilers or things leaking out. It was just a dialogue about things. Structured dialogue would be my number #1 panacea to the toxic enviroment here.

I miss these too .

In addition, I think that if Bioware has a Social Networking stie capable of having blogs, then the Bioware Blog should be through here as well. Having nearly every form of communication go through other venues is not just insulting to the BSN faithful, but a gross indictment of the lack of capabilities of their own site.

I actually think that they could use a more robust system altogether. Even if they don't use a popular forum software like vBulletin, they could conceivably build their own forums from scratch, like Blizzard did. Everything being connected to battle.net: account, store, forums, and game/character info is really amazing.

Yes, I do realize that this would probably involve hiring more coders to work on the forum specifically, and I also would prefer to see that money going into DA3 instead, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:51 .

[Nomadiac]

 @Fast Jimmy: I do hope that someone follows through on your suggestion, because this isn't Bioware's official forums right now - it's just a place for people to **** (or whine and moan in an annoying, unhelpful and entitled manner, if that can get past the censor). 

I don't blame the devs for not wanting to wade into this cesspool, because when they try to actually talk to fans it's like people are shouting in their faces, foaming at the mouth about how Bioware has 'betrayed' and 'deceived' them, as if Bioware's committed high treason. But if they don't wish to talk to fans here they might as well close down the forums, because without input from Bioware this can't really be called the Bioware Social Network. 

Also, David Gaider's blog is excellent. 

Modifié par Nomadiac, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:06 .

[daft inquisitor]

@nightscrawl
Everything is already half-connected to our EA login, so I don't see how that would be too much of an issue. You can already click from someone's profile page straight into their character upload info for DA:O and DA2. It wouldn't be too much effort, I would think, to do the same with ME3, and link everything more directly to your forum accounts.

However, that being said, I don't know that Bioware would even care to do that. The forums have been in the same basic layout for over a decade now, and have shown no real plans of changing, aside from some slight cosmetic modifications.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:09 .

[Wulfram]

nightscrawl wrote...

calling devs liars

Well, on the other hand it would really help if Bioware people were more honest than they were in the lead up to the ME3 release

edit:  Honest means more than not lieing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:10 .

[Darth Death]

The forums became "toxic" for 2 main reasons:

1. DA2 & ME3's severe shortcomings.
2. BioWare's arrogant response to those shortcomings.

Now if you stand back & observed what's written, you'll realize the problem initially developed from BioWare's blunders & not fans seeking personal vengeance. They reaped what they sowed.

Modifié par Darth Death, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:11 .

[daft inquisitor]

Wulfram wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

calling devs liars

Well, on the other hand it would really help if Bioware people were more honest than they were in the lead up to the ME3 release

Now, now, Wulf. Pointing fingers isn't going to do any good here. Counterintuitive. It's already been expressed that the marketing sucks, but that's not the fault of the devs.

[Fast Jimmy]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

@nightscrawl
Everything is already half-connected to our EA login, so I don't see how that would be too much of an issue. You can already click from someone's profile page straight into their character upload info for DA:O and DA2. It wouldn't be too much effort, I would think, to do the same with ME3, and link everything more directly to your forum accounts.

However, that being said, I don't know that Bioware would even care to do that. The forums have been in the same basic layout for over a decade now, and have shown no real plans of changing, aside from some slight cosmetic modifications.

There was a survey that went out a few months back that seemed like it was collecting information about how much people use the BSN and other social media, and how you access it (such as your PC or a mobile phone).

I really did not like the survey, as its questions made a lot of assumptions in their setup. For instance, it asked "How many hours a week do you spend on social networking sites like Facebook, Twitter or the BSN?"

That's a really loaded question, because I spent 10+ hours (easily) on the BSN a week, but don't have a Facebook or Twitter page. If someone saw that I say I spend over 10 hours a week on social networking sites from reading that survey, they would say "Well, we have many people who are all over Facebook and Twitter! Let's focus our efforts there," which would, in my case, be a total misrepresentation of the question asked.

[Wulfram]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Now, now, Wulf. Pointing fingers isn't going to do any good here. Counterintuitive. It's already been expressed that the marketing sucks, but that's not the fault of the devs.

Fingers are pointing one way, why should they not point the other?

Devs and other Bioware employees who post on the forum are adults, and are responsible for the things that come out of their mouths, or which they write in the forums.

[Iakus]

Just gonna repeat someething I said in another thread about this:

Playing the holier-than-thou card isn't going to help anyone. It will just encourage squelching any kind of criticism as being "toxic"

[daft inquisitor]

Wulfram wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Now, now, Wulf. Pointing fingers isn't going to do any good here. Counterintuitive. It's already been expressed that the marketing sucks, but that's not the fault of the devs.

Fingers are pointing one way, why should they not point the other?

Devs and other Bioware employees who post on the forum are adults, and are responsible for the things that come out of their mouths, or which they write in the forums.

Oh, come on. When have the devs ever blatantly blamed you for an issue?

Are you getting uppity about them calling the forum toxic? Guess what. It is. And if you start arguing about that, then you're not helping at all. If you argue that it isn't toxic, or that they shouldn't call it that, then you become part of the issue. The fact is, this is a terrible environment. I'm just asking that you try to help make it better, instead of slinging accusations that will get us nowhere.

Rise above, man. I believe you have it in you.

iakus wrote...

Just gonna repeat someething I said in another thread about this:

Playing the holier-than-thou card isn't going to help anyone. It will just encourage squelching any kind of criticism as being "toxic"

Nobody is playing "holier-than-thou". Gaider even said in the blog post that it isn't everyone in the forums, that there are a lot of people here that are even-minded and worth listening to.

Not all critisism is toxic, and he knows that. It's about how it's presented. As an earlier poster said, if you have an issue with the (for example) repeated maps in DA2, then say that you thought it was a poor way to handle what they were trying to do. Calling them incompetent for it? Saying people should lose their jobs or die in a fire over the idea? That's extreme. Too extreme. THAT is the toxic that he's talking about.

You're allowed to disagree, but not take it to hateful, awful measures.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[BomimoDK]

Yeah. I stopped coming here after i noticed that the excessively heated discussions about nothing at all never went anywhere but a burning thread. Some of the criticisms about these games are totally retarded. I mean. For every legit post about the ME3 ending and the DA2 combat, there are 12k posts about how Miranda's boobs are crooked or the colour of Hawkes 137.257th beard-strand is wrong.

Just look at the ****ing about elves, romances and so forth. I mean. I'd understand it if anyone ever mentioned the gripes with ruleset documentation, gameplay or visuals in general. But it's always some obscure bull**** and if they're proven wrong they pull it back into either Subjective VS objective and which definition is objectively correct to apply in this context and whether that subjectively applies for every forumite.

If that didn't troll the thread beyond recognision, they drag it into the horribly stupid argument of wether every game ever is an RPG of if the mainstream definition that has always counted counts and if this didn't destroy all hope of civilized conduct, they combine it to the objective/subjective and throw in a bit of Coloured endings and redesigned elves to invalidate this whole forums entire existence.

I seriously can't see why this place exists anymore. It was a place to discuss the games, but we're never disgussing the games. We're just picking a fragment of a game, then cut away the game around it and violently lynch that bit out of context and claim that it'd never work in any context. This place is the troll-capital of the wannabe-high-society of the internet. Every time i read one of these troll posts, i picture the poster with a top-hat and a cigar, pretending to understand the subjective effects of dividing Socrates with the 0th square of time and space.

This is a ****ty place and i hope to GOD something big happens to clean this place up. The people here aren't even fans as much as trolls any more. If i ever go on to develop ANYTHING, i hope i never get my forums in such a state. This is way beyond the deserved.

[daft inquisitor]

BomimoDK wrote...

*snip*

That... is almost worse than a lot of the legitimate awful posts I've seen here. That's just as much of a toxic attitude. Calm down, man. This place is bad, but ranting around like that and sounding like a petulant child isn't helping either.

Tirades like that never helped anybody.

EDIT: This exhibits exactly what Yankee's following post says. "It's due to the fact that the fans treat each other like sh!t."

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:45 .

[Yankee23]

Although it plays a role, the biggest reason these forums have become "toxic" isn't because of the hostility and criticism directed at the devs and Bioware. It's due to the fact that the fans treat each other like sh!t. I remember a time when, for the most part, these forums were a fun place to discuss, debate, gush, etc... That is not the case anymore, the threads are full of disrespectful responses and personal attacks because someone doesn't share an opinion. It's pretty sad and juvenile, imo.

[daft inquisitor]

Nizaris1 wrote...

*snip*

Only one issue with that. It's not fear that keeps them away, it's disgust. And yes, it does make all the difference.

Every Bioware employee I've seen enter the forums to a tirade of rants and accusations have always met them professionally, have always kept their cool, but you can tell that they don't want to spend days arguing over petty points. It's tiresome, and they leave because it no longer becomes worth the effort, if they feel it's like trying to beat back a tsunami with a flyswatter, which it really is.

They leave because they feel they'll never make any progress, no matter how much time they try to spend placating the masses. And, because of a lot of the posters here, that's completely true.

[Wulfram]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Oh, come on. When have the devs ever blatantly blamed you for an issue?

Me, personally?  Never.  But I'm part of the BSN community.  And I haven't named any names, either.

Are you getting uppity about them calling the forum toxic? Guess what. It is. And if you start arguing about that, then you're not helping at all. If you argue that it isn't toxic, or that they shouldn't call it that, then you become part of the issue. The fact is, this is a terrible environment. I'm just asking that you try to help make it better, instead of slinging accusations that will get us nowhere.

Rise above, man. I believe you have it in you.

I'd rather engage in an honest discussion as to the problem and it's roots than take part in some self flagellation, wailing and pleas that the holy and perfect Devs should once more offer us the grace of their presence.

If you're going to criticise fans for accusing the Devs of lying - which Mr Gaider didn't, but the post I was replying to did - then you need to acknowledge that the fans have reasons for feeling mislead.

[Fast Jimmy]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

BomimoDK wrote...

*snip*

That... is almost worse than a lot of the legitimate awful posts I've seen here. That's just as much of a toxic attitude. Calm down, man. This place is bad, but ranting around like that and sounding like a petulant child isn't helping either.

Tirades like that never helped anybody.

Agreed. 

People who are aggitated and curse in defense of Bioware are just as much to blame as the people who are aggitated and curse AT Bioware here on the BSN. I've seen equal threads get stirred up into trouble by people who may view themselves as defenders of Bioware as people who post anger against them.

In fact, I think it is worse sometimes. Saying Bioware, a nameless, faceless company, did something wrong that you hate and yada yada yada isn't productive... but its certainly not going to incite any kind of fights (except, I suppose, with maybe a dev). However, the White Knights of Bioware who then swoop in and attack the people attacking Bioware turn it into a personal vendetta. 

And... as everyone knows... swooping is bad.

THAT'S when things become truly toxic - when the fans start attacking each other because one person can't articulate their complaints against a game well, then everyone who shares sentiment on that complaint is then labeled an idiot, or a troll, or told to leave if they hate things so much. Those standing in defense of Bioware have contributed just as much toxicity and personal attacks to the site as those who just moan and complain about Bioware in general.

[daft inquisitor]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd rather engage in an honest discussion as to the problem and it's roots than take part in some self flagellation, wailing and pleas that the holy and perfect Devs should once more offer us the grace of their presence.

If you're going to criticise fans for accusing the Devs of lying - which Mr Gaider didn't, but the post I was replying to did - then you need to acknowledge that the fans have reasons for feeling mislead.

I'm not against discussion. I'm also not saying we, as fans, should be "self-flagellating fanatics" [paraphrased]. There's middle ground here, just people don't think it will get anywhere.

The Dev's aren't perfect, no, but blaming them for things like the mass marketing and everything the media promises for the game is just missing the mark. The Devs don't control that. Any of that. It's part of a completely different department, mostly people who aren't gamers but just fish for thinks they think would make great catchphrases even out of context, and bandy them about to get some kind of recognition.

Seriously. Marketing departments ALWAYS **** everything up. Go and look at how many games there are where back-cover bullet-point "game features" never even existed in the game, because someone in marketing saw something and took it out of context, or looked at something in an old build that was removed, etc., etc.

Name-calling and blaming the Bioware devs for things like that will literally get you nowhere. That's the Gods-honest truth. 

And I'll say here that you might not even have been making a point on that. I could have gotten my reply to you mixed up with someone else. In which case, sorry, that's my fault. But it's a point that needs to be made, whether in reply to you, or someone else that's missing the mark on it.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:52 .