382 réponses à ce sujet

[daft inquisitor]

Nizaris1 wrote...

"dear bioware, i have problem with blah blah blah...could you please clarify this blah blah blah...?

Bioware respond, "blah blah blah....end of line!"

That what make fans angry...

Just take a look at SWTOR forum, on You Tube, on blogs...how many fans turn into enemies?

I would like to see some specific examples of this, because I've never seen it anywhere on the forums. At least, not on the Dragon Age forums, which we should be focusing on here.

If there are cases of this? Post the links. I'll gladly say you're right, if that's the case. I'm just saying I've never seen it, and everything I have seen has been far more professional.

[Wulfram]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

The Dev's aren't perfect, no, but blaming them for things like the mass marketing and everything the media promises for the game is just missing the mark. The Devs don't control that.

They control what they themselves say.  They control what they post on the forums.

(I've tried to keep things general to avoid making what could be considered a personal attack, but I should probably say that I've never felt Mr Gaider was dishonest)

[Iakus]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Nobody is playing "holier-than-thou". Gaider even said in the blog post that it isn't everyone in the forums, that there are a lot of people here that are even-minded and worth listening to.

Not all critisism is toxic, and he knows that. It's about how it's presented. As an earlier poster said, if you have an issue with the (for example) repeated maps in DA2, then say that you thought it was a poor way to handle what they were trying to do. Calling them incompetent for it? Saying people should lose their jobs or die in a fire over the idea? That's extreme. Too extreme. THAT is the toxic that he's talking about.

You're allowed to disagree, but not take it to hateful, awful measures.

I didn't say anyone was.  But people can and will use this as ammunition for how "haters" are ruining the forums.  And anyone who disagrees with them is a hater.

[daft inquisitor]

Wulfram wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

The Dev's aren't perfect, no, but blaming them for things like the mass marketing and everything the media promises for the game is just missing the mark. The Devs don't control that.

They control what they themselves say.  They control what they post on the forums.

(I've tried to keep things general to avoid making what could be considered a personal attack, but I should probably say that I've never felt Mr Gaider was dishonest)

I'm actually curious about some cases of this myself. If you know of some specific cases, could you send me a PM about them? I'll respect that you don't want to make a huge public case of this, but I must admit I'm curious as to where things have been mistold by Bioware devs.

[Emzamination]

I just read this in the news. Gaider hates us?  

[rapscallioness]

There is one thing I wanted to note here abt. the Romance threads. The romance threads are so many pages not because it's all abt whatever LI. Rather it's more because they're a safe place to be.

The romance threads will swoon and have fun abt a LI, but really it's just an environment that is not adversarial. Ppl go out of their way to be polite to each other for the sake of keeping the peace in the thread.

So, it becomes a safe and comfortable place to talk abt the game; recent news; ideas/theories without having to worry abt backlash for every lil thing you say.

Sometimes you just wanna talk abt the game--look at a nice pic of the LI, share fan art etc. without having to argue abt it all.

That's why the romance threads are so many pages.

[Fast Jimmy]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're going to criticise fans for accusing the Devs of lying - which Mr Gaider didn't, but the post I was replying to did - then you need to acknowledge that the fans have reasons for feeling mislead.

Aye, and the unfortunate thing from the pov of any dev willing to post here is that many will try to hold them accountable for things they had no part of!

I agree with this. Back when Allan first started getting involved here in the summer, he posted in the ME3 forums, post ending insanity. Which was the bravest thing I think I've ever seen a dev do here, to be honest.

People would yell and criticize him, saying he, personally, made a terrible game and lied to everyone. When he had never worked a day in his life on the ME team. 

As a side suggestion, you know what else I think would be cool? Coordinated dev BSN times. 

I'm sure devs have felt ganged up on, or like they are the baby sitter of the forums whenever they pop in and post, because people swarm on them like ants. I've noticed conversations, though, where Blair, Allan and Gaider were all posting in the same thread, replying to issues. And you know what? It really helped. Because people weren't going crazy at seeing "BIOWARE" in their name and laying all their angst, fear and hatred right at their feet. They had to actually pay attention to what name was attached to that Bioware label.

Which makes it more humanizing and suddenly you are talking to a person, you aren't talking to "Bioware."

If Bioware were to somehow coordinate times (once a month, once a week, whatever) where they can come out in large numbers for a few hours and just check stuff out and reply, I think that would be really cool. They wouldn't need to announce the schedule to the world or anything, they could just adhere to it internally. 

If, at any time, we could encounter a flood of dev input and responses that made the fans go nuts with excitement and that wouldn't make any one dev feel they are slogging through the swamps, but rather defuse some of the crazy out over multiple points of contact, then I think they could make a lot of headway in a very short amount of time.




Just doing my normal "pie in the sky" type of theorizing. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

I just read this in the news. Gaider hates us?  

I don't think he hates us as a whole. I just think he hates what we have become. 

[nightscrawl]

Emzamination wrote...

I just read this in the news. Gaider hates us?  

NO he doesn't "hate us," geez... Did you read his blog post?

Aside from the infamous BSN person here or there I'm sure the devs talk about amongst themselves, I highly doubt they care so much as to actively hate anyone. They're not obligated to come here, and as can be seen from the occasional dry spell, some of them choose to take breaks.

[Fast Jimmy]

rapscallioness wrote...

There is one thing I wanted to note here abt. the Romance threads. The romance threads are so many pages not because it's all abt whatever LI. Rather it's more because they're a safe place to be.

The romance threads will swoon and have fun abt a LI, but really it's just an environment that is not adversarial. Ppl go out of their way to be polite to each other for the sake of keeping the peace in the thread.

So, it becomes a safe and comfortable place to talk abt the game; recent news; ideas/theories without having to worry abt backlash for every lil thing you say.

Sometimes you just wanna talk abt the game--look at a nice pic of the LI, share fan art etc. without having to argue abt it all.

That's why the romance threads are so many pages.

Well, that's not entirely true, as can be seen from the Romance Forums that went nuclear for Mass Effect. Any topic, whether it is gameplay mechnaics, lore, story, strategy/builds, roleplaying opportunities or romances... all of it is subject to this little mad scientist psychology experiment we call the BSN. 

Not that there is anything wrong with romance threads in general. But if people can get into thrown down, drag out fights over a video game characters butt, then there is seriously something wrong with how things are working.

[daft inquisitor]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If, at any time, we could encounter a flood of dev input and responses that made the fans go nuts with excitement and that wouldn't make any one dev feel they are slogging through the swamps, but rather defuse some of the crazy out over multiple points of contact, then I think they could make a lot of headway in a very short amount of time. 

Yes, send in the SWAT team. 

Joking aside, I do like this idea. I don't know how much it would help, but it would be cool to see them at least try.

[OdanUrr]

Beat DG to it.

http://social.biowar.../index/15497665

[rapscallioness]

Emzamination wrote...

I just read this in the news. Gaider hates us?  

No. Gaider doesn't hate us. He also said in that blog post that there was no need to villify the BSN. And something abt--" just because you don't think they are responding in the "proper" way".

But the journo's are running with it a certain way. At least in their headlines.

[rapscallioness]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

There is one thing I wanted to note here abt. the Romance threads. The romance threads are so many pages not because it's all abt whatever LI. Rather it's more because they're a safe place to be.

The romance threads will swoon and have fun abt a LI, but really it's just an environment that is not adversarial. Ppl go out of their way to be polite to each other for the sake of keeping the peace in the thread.

So, it becomes a safe and comfortable place to talk abt the game; recent news; ideas/theories without having to worry abt backlash for every lil thing you say.

Sometimes you just wanna talk abt the game--look at a nice pic of the LI, share fan art etc. without having to argue abt it all.

That's why the romance threads are so many pages.

Well, that's not entirely true, as can be seen from the Romance Forums that went nuclear for Mass Effect. Any topic, whether it is gameplay mechnaics, lore, story, strategy/builds, roleplaying opportunities or romances... all of it is subject to this little mad scientist psychology experiment we call the BSN. 

Not that there is anything wrong with romance threads in general. But if people can get into thrown down, drag out fights over a video game characters butt, then there is seriously something wrong with how things are working.

yeah, idk what happned there. I didn't even see that. But my experience w/the romance threads has been an exceptional level of cooperation. Maybe it's a chick thing.

[Fast Jimmy]

OdanUrr wrote...

Beat DG to it.

http://social.biowar.../index/15497665

To be fair, the VLOG came out January 5th. Gaider's post came out January 2nd.

Not that its a race or anything.

[frankf43]

I must admit I sometimes come on here read a thread and think, "if you hate the game that much why are you here?"

I came to the boards when I heard about DA:I trying to find the odd snippet of infomation about the game that I am so looking forward to only to run into hundreds of posts from people who obviously hate the Game and Bioware intensely.

I know I have upset David once by making a glib comment about two of his posts Something along the lines of saying that DA:I be prepared to be disapointed was the new advertising campaign.

I told him that I meant it as a joke. It was not long after I started posting on the site and didn't realise the negativity of much the forum before I posted the comment. I didn't mean anything bad by the statement as i've said a bad sense of humour after all I love the Da series.

[Bfler]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, that's not entirely true, as can be seen from the Romance Forums that went nuclear for Mass Effect. 

It was only the Miranda Lawson sub-forum, which was the cause for closing of the romance section. 

[Icesong]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're going to criticise fans for accusing the Devs of lying - which Mr Gaider didn't, but the post I was replying to did - then you need to acknowledge that the fans have reasons for feeling mislead.

Aye, and the unfortunate thing from the pov of any dev willing to post here is that many will try to hold them accountable for things they had no part of!

I agree with this. Back when Allan first started getting involved here in the summer, he posted in the ME3 forums, post ending insanity. Which was the bravest thing I think I've ever seen a dev do here, to be honest.

People would yell and criticize him, saying he, personally, made a terrible game and lied to everyone. When he had never worked a day in his life on the ME team. 

As I said earlier, there's a difference in the forum culture when a developer posts once in a while and continued interaction. Schumacher did initially get a lot of people jumping on him but over time, once people understood who he was and got used to his presence, it died down.

[Addai]

renjility wrote...

I feel that Bioware plays the victim a bit too easily in all of this. You reap what you sow. Unfair behavior lead to unfair behavior in return, and outright lying to your customers I certainly consider unfair. "Shaping the city around you", "choices and consequences", and when the game is out they act very, very surprised that the game is not received as well as they thought it would be.

Agreed.  You treat your fanbase cynically and expect their internet psyche to react well?  Not going to happen.

Not that this is the fault of every dev who posts here, rather than directives coming from above them over which they had no control.  It also doesn't excuse bad behavior.  I don't read the ME forums, but overall I'd say the venom at BSN is on a lower level than you'll find in any other game forum where Bioware's name comes up.  The company's name is mud and that's not only the fault of fans.

[daft inquisitor]

frankf43 wrote...

I came to the boards when I heard about DA:I trying to find the odd snippet of infomation about the game that I am so looking forward to only to run into hundreds of posts from people who obviously hate the Game and Bioware intensely.

Same here. As I said earlier, I remember these boards back when they were on the OLD Bioware site, circa NWN. They still had their fare share of disagreements and competetive posters and all, but I never would have thought it had become this bad if I hadn't seen it myself. 

[Uccio]

renjility wrote...

 I could have gritted my teeth and waded through all the waves in all the recycled dungeons if the story was worth it. But is wasn't, and I still have not encountered a comment by Mr Gaider or somebody else that admitted that the writing has fallen short too.

I thought this too. Had the storyline/choise-consequense/interaction-companions-npc been on higher level than Origins I probably would have just waved my hand at the other issues.

[daft inquisitor]

Addai67 wrote...

renjility wrote...

I feel that Bioware plays the victim a bit too easily in all of this. You reap what you sow. Unfair behavior lead to unfair behavior in return, and outright lying to your customers I certainly consider unfair. "Shaping the city around you", "choices and consequences", and when the game is out they act very, very surprised that the game is not received as well as they thought it would be.

Agreed.  You treat your fanbase cynically and expect their internet psyche to react well?  Not going to happen.

Not that this is the fault of every dev who posts here, rather than directives coming from above them over which they had no control.  It also doesn't excuse bad behavior.  I don't read the ME forums, but overall I'd say the venom at BSN is on a lower level than you'll find in any other game forum where Bioware's name comes up.  The company's name is mud and that's not only the fault of fans.

I think there's a great point to be had here.

To the Devs and outsiders, the BSN is toxic. To the people of BSN and a lot of outsiders, the Devs are cynical and glib.

Blanket statements aren't going to fix this. There are crap people on both sides, and there are also people on both sides trying to make it better.

I understand you're not trying to make it a point of calling **** on Bioware, but it has to be said that a lot of people have the same hatred to Bioware overall as to what a lot of other people/Bioware have towards the BSN overall. People on BOTH sides need to learn to overcome all the **** and try to make this into a great community again.