382 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Rawgrim wrote...

If the DA2 haters gets what they want in DA3, the DA2 fanboys will turn into DA3 haters. Simple.

Fortunately this would be impossible at this stage, because they've already announced voiced protagonist and human-only protagonist.  Not that I think those are necessarily the best game features ever, but it's been my experience that people who complain rabidly about those two features in particular have basically nothing useful to say.  It's fine if you prefer a silent protagonist and to play an elf.  What is not fine is acting as if Bioware somehow owes it to you to only include features you prefer.

I suppose I'm glad I dropped out of the ME franchise after the first game if those forums really are that bad.

[Icesong]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Icesong wrote...

I meant changing the overall tone of the forum, not every single poster. And that guy said he's stopped hoping for change; if he actually got it, who knows?

Anyway, just ban that guy. No, don't close down the entire forum Priestly.

Honestly, that forum should never have been created (imo).

But to respond to your point, what change?

How YOU want them to change? That's what's meant by such a statement, isn't it. As far as I'm concerned, Bioware's never produced a bad game. ME3 was the most emotional Bioware game i've ever played. They finally made a protagonist that I could connect with.

When you say "change," you're speaking almost purely in a subjective area.

I'm rather speaking in an imaginary area where BioWare would actually do either of those things. I didn't bring it up to realistically discuss what would or could happen. My point in replying back was just that they aren't complaining with no basis and would continue to complain if they got their wish.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[Drone223]

EDIT: Nevermind

Modifié par Drone223, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:13 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Well, I would prefer it to not play as a human... that is, if possible. To be honest I got into the series because of different features that were promised, and now I find it kinda irritating, you know, to have something other than what was promised delivered.

So I would appreciate it if David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize. I think it would a long way for some members of the community because some us were kinda disappointed in the game (Dragon Age 2), right? If David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize, I would really appreciate it.

[Paul Sedgmore]

EntropicAngel wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 What is not fine is acting as if Bioware somehow owes it to you to only include features you prefer.

I'm tempted sometimes to tell people:

"Bioware does not owe you anything."

But I doubt it would help so I hold my tongue.

I think that would only make things worse, I'm always tempted to do that as well before I remind myself to think first and then the thread has more often than not moved on.

[DreGregoire]

It's really too bad the devs are (possibly) more active on non Bioware social forums than they are on this forum because to be honest I'm not going to create a new account or clog up an existing account on other media (forums, whatever) for bioware games. It is upsetting to know that I am missing bioware dev chat because they are doing it on social sites that I'm not a part of, that said I'm not going to baa or moo my way over to the sites just because the Bioware Social Network is alleged to be too "Toxic" for the devs to enjoy. It's all a bit sad. I can only hope that things will improve over time and I'll just continue my current course of rarely visiting and even more rarely posting, until the next title comes out anyways.

[eromelcm7]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

I think that would only make things worse, I'm always tempted to do that as well before I remind myself to think first and then the thread has more often than not moved on.

Yeah, there are a lot of times when I'll open up a thread, see something, open up a reply and reply, but before I hit "Submit" I really ask myself if I need to do that. I didn't used (sp?) to do that and I think it's helped make BSN less...stressful.

Half joking here: Maybe we need a timer on the submit button so people don't rush to post an emotionaly charge response.

[TheJediSaint]

eromelcm7 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

I think that would only make things worse, I'm always tempted to do that as well before I remind myself to think first and then the thread has more often than not moved on.

Yeah, there are a lot of times when I'll open up a thread, see something, open up a reply and reply, but before I hit "Submit" I really ask myself if I need to do that. I didn't used (sp?) to do that and I think it's helped make BSN less...stressful.

Half joking here: Maybe we need a timer on the submit button so people don't rush to post an emotionaly charge response.

Hiting the reply button should link the player to a randomly selected youtube video of a kitten.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

EntropicAngel wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 What is not fine is acting as if Bioware somehow owes it to you to only include features you prefer.

I'm tempted sometimes to tell people:

"Bioware does not owe you anything."

But I doubt it would help so I hold my tongue.

Icesong wrote...

I'm rather speaking in imaginary area where BioWare would actually do either of those things. I didn't bring it up to realistically discuss what would or could happen. My point in replying back was just that they aren't complaining with no basis and would continue to complain if they got their wish. 

Some. Not all. IMO.

Drone223 wrote...

That would also mean respecting other people's opinion's that means no "I'm right and your wrong" stuff.

Very true.

That's what reason why I like these forums (DA), people seem a lot more methodical and...just plodding, I could say. Not so caught up in the moment, not so determined to be right, not so opposed to being wrong.

Okay, okay, they don't owe us anything. But what about trust? I feel like can't trust BIoWare anymore, you know? It's not so much that I dislike BioWare that I am afraid they are going to screw up Dragon Age 3. Where's the insurance that they won't?


edit: sorry, I didn't see your post.

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[billy the squid]

5 pages and no one's gone nuts yet, how interesting.

Is it the topic or the person which creates the inflammatory threads? Some reasons for locking topics in the off topic forums have been politics,socio economics and law, likely to cause flame wars, yet this one did very much so when it came up previously. So is it the topic or the poster? Particularly when RedArmyShogun, myself and others have talked about things, while despite our differing views on aspects, did so very well, with little hint of discord yet it was still locked, simply because it existed.

Perhaps a little more moderator discretion can be used, regarding the tone and quality of the conversation in off topic forums, not just the topic of discussion.

Now I think it's quite evident from when I entered the previous thread that I can easily exacerbate things to the point where the thread implodes and is locked or deleted. Yet, I've felt no inclination to do so here, despite the topic and the potential inflammatory nature, given what happened previously, so topic or poster? Food for thought.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Well, I would prefer it to not play as a human... that is, if possible. To be honest I got into the series because of different features that were promised, and now I find it kinda irritating, you know, to have something other than what was promised delivered.

So I would appreciate it if David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize. I think it would a long way for some members of the community because some us were kinda disappointed in the game (Dragon Age 2), right? If David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize, I would really appreciate it.

Nothing is a promise.

Go with that, ^, and you won't be disappointed. Treat the promises of a company like you would those of a politician, as in "we'll see when we get there," and don't commit yourself to things you don't know. I can tell you you'll always, always be disappointed if you hold companies (just like politicians) to their promises. People lie, and not just that, but people promise things they simply may not be able to deliver on.

Case in point, ME. It was simply impossible to deliver on the whole "choices & consequences" thing. I don't fault Bioware for trying, and i think they did an admirable job. But they simply reached too far, no doubt about it.

I didn't commit myself to them "coming true" on that promise, so I didn't feel hurt when they didn't. There HAVE been things I have commited myself to, and I DID get hurt. So I determined not to get so emotiionally caught up in it again.

I understand. It's not like I can't deal with one game I don't like, but the thing David Gaider and the others don't realize is that they'd clear up much of the fuss and controversy by facing it instead of hiding from it. Just a few thoughts, just saying.

[Paul Sedgmore]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Well, I would prefer it to not play as a human... that is, if possible. To be honest I got into the series because of different features that were promised, and now I find it kinda irritating, you know, to have something other than what was promised delivered.

So I would appreciate it if David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize. I think it would a long way for some members of the community because some us were kinda disappointed in the game (Dragon Age 2), right? If David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize, I would really appreciate it.

Nothing is a promise.

Go with that, ^, and you won't be disappointed. Treat the promises of a company like you would those of a politician, as in "we'll see when we get there," and don't commit yourself to things you don't know. I can tell you you'll always, always be disappointed if you hold companies (just like politicians) to their promises. People lie, and not just that, but people promise things they simply may not be able to deliver on.

Case in point, ME. It was simply impossible to deliver on the whole "choices & consequences" thing. I don't fault Bioware for trying, and i think they did an admirable job. But they simply reached too far, no doubt about it.

I didn't commit myself to them "coming true" on that promise, so I didn't feel hurt when they didn't. There HAVE been things I have commited myself to, and I DID get hurt. So I determined not to get so emotiionally caught up in it again.

That is a good way of looking at it, personally I have always looked at developer "promises" as "This is what we are trying to do" rather than "this is what the final product will be like" especially after working in the industry and seeing what making a game really entails.

[Fast Jimmy]

DreGregoire wrote...

It's really too bad the devs are (possibly) more active on non Bioware social forums than they are on this forum because to be honest I'm not going to create a new account or clog up an existing account on other media (forums, whatever) for bioware games. It is upsetting to know that I am missing bioware dev chat because they are doing it on social sites that I'm not a part of, that said I'm not going to baa or moo my way over to the sites just because the Bioware Social Network is alleged to be too "Toxic" for the devs to enjoy. It's all a bit sad. I can only hope that things will improve over time and I'll just continue my current course of rarely visiting and even more rarely posting, until the next title comes out anyways. 

I do think it is a bit silly that the devs do this. I would understand it if they had started this trend after things became toxic here, but it started pre-DA2 release, when everyone was pretty excited and hopeful here on the BSN. Sure, there were those who were pains (I, myself was rather quiet for a long time here on these boards and hasn't emerged as the pain in the side I am viewed as today) but most people were content with what Bioware was doing and the direction they were going. I wouldn't say things around here became dark, depressing and frustrating until around 2011. 

But all that aside, the devs were posting info on Twitter instead of the BSN long before that. Which is fine, if there were a concurrent blend of info here. But there's not. It's sad that the biggest collection of data about an upcoming Bioware game can only be found on their site in the thread that collects Tweets. 

When questions get asked here, they are ignored or we are told they aren't talking about the game at all, if we do get a dev response. But often the same questions asked on Twitter or Tumblr get direct responses, with lots of info and reason to actually GET EXCITED for a new release. It's not even a preferred method of transmitting data... it's preferred treatement, period. I'd not want to stomp my feet and demand a developer talk to the fans if they didn't want to. I wouldn't even begrudge them if they did, but felt like the BSN had become unproductive. But to parse out information through social media like Twitter and give no tie-in or follow up to the players here on the BSN who have proven to A) buy Bioware's games and be extremely passionate about them, seems very counter-intuitive to me. 

Just my two cents. When I read Gaider's comments a week or two ago, I wasn't offended, but I did know they would be discussed often here. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:48 .

[eromelcm7]

Anyone think a reputation system on BSN would be beneficial?

Hell, even Xbox Live has that. I may pass over posts that I see are posted by a poorly rated user by the community. It may help those who wish a nice discussion avoid those who have a hateful reputation. Also the very implementation may discourage future hateful users, knowing some of their anonymity from thread to thread is gone.

[Rawgrim]

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Well, I would prefer it to not play as a human... that is, if possible. To be honest I got into the series because of different features that were promised, and now I find it kinda irritating, you know, to have something other than what was promised delivered.

So I would appreciate it if David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize. I think it would a long way for some members of the community because some us were kinda disappointed in the game (Dragon Age 2), right? If David Gaider could come into this thread and apologize, I would really appreciate it.

Nothing is a promise.

Go with that, ^, and you won't be disappointed. Treat the promises of a company like you would those of a politician, as in "we'll see when we get there," and don't commit yourself to things you don't know. I can tell you you'll always, always be disappointed if you hold companies (just like politicians) to their promises. People lie, and not just that, but people promise things they simply may not be able to deliver on.

Case in point, ME. It was simply impossible to deliver on the whole "choices & consequences" thing. I don't fault Bioware for trying, and i think they did an admirable job. But they simply reached too far, no doubt about it.

I didn't commit myself to them "coming true" on that promise, so I didn't feel hurt when they didn't. There HAVE been things I have commited myself to, and I DID get hurt. So I determined not to get so emotiionally caught up in it again.

That is a good way of looking at it, personally I have always looked at developer "promises" as "This is what we are trying to do" rather than "this is what the final product will be like" especially after working in the industry and seeing what making a game really entails.

Quite right. But I do remember some downright lies from the marketing as well. The Witch Hunt DLC, for example. Said we would learn Morrigan`s big secret if we played it. It said so all the way through when it got sold. Even after the release. That just wasn`t true. if someone goes haywire from things like that, I can certainly see where they are coming from.

I remember when Neverwinter Nights came out, it was stated loads of times that it would let me import my bg2 character, and the story would continue from there. This wasn`t true either.

When things like this keeps happening, people are bound to get disapointed\\pissed. So Bioware should shoulder some of the blame for this unpleasant atmosphere as well.

[Dhiro]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

I understand. It's not like I can't deal with one game I don't like, but the thing David Gaider and the others don't realize is that they'd clear up much of the fuss and controversy by facing it instead of hiding from it. Just a few thoughts, just saying.

The thing is, there's not much they can say.

Take DA ]|[ and races, for example.

Now, I am not a fan of this. At all. I argue that it inhibits roleplaying, because it prevents certain types of characters from being made. Elves, Dwarves, that kind of thing. The thing is, though--the DA team didn't exclude races because they have a sadistic streak. They didn't exclude them because they WANT to alienate their fanbase. They have a reason for their choices.

BUT, the other thing is--no matter what their reason is, no matter how valid it is--it likely won't satisfy me in the sense that I say "okay, I like no races." My point is also valid--it's just not what they were going for with DA ]|[. Them coming and explaining won't change that.

Pretty much. And while some people will respect their decision - even if they really don't agree with it - other will just keep arguing to the point of being obnoxious. And while arguing for what you'd like to see in a game isn't inherently bad or anything, the BSN has been slipping into a very vicious territory where the devs apparently are a bunch of idiots who can't do their jobs and are the cancer destroying RPGs.

[WhiteKnyght]

I hang around BSN for these reasons.

1. I'm a stubborn bastard. It'll take more than a pack of trolls to scare me off. Though my activity has admittedly waned lately.

2. There are a few diamonds in the rough where I can find real opinions and good discussion, not just blind hate.

3. I'm not looking to make friends. I know my opinions ****** people off, but that doesn't matter.

4. Too much negativity on these boards for the reasons D-Gai states. Somebody's gotta post some positive things.

5. Good source of information. Anything I might have missed by not checking Twitter or Bioware's blog at the right times can pop up here.

6. I still hope for a return to the forums' more peaceful days. Or for the day when Bioware takes back their forum from the trolls.

[Foolsfolly]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

StElmo wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I don't disagree with him, and it's sad to see--really, has been sad to see BSN descend into insanity basically in this year alone. i mean, the ME3 romance forums completely closed because people--well, it's just unbelievable.

Also, this really isn't DA related. this would be off-topic material.

So what were people doing on the romance forums?

Was it homophobia or something>

BioWare is always really good at their ability ro be colorblind and sexuality blind - i imagine that is provocative to conservative people.

No, it wasn't homophobic. It was fans of one romance attacking fans of another romance. It got RIDICULOUSLY out of control. I am talking full on hate and personal attacks for days and weeks on end. They wound up closing the entire romance section of the forums. 

That's why that section is closed off? I'd always wondered why... but never had the actual desire to delve into the threads and see what was so wrong with the entire forum. Too much work sifting through stuff I wouldn't care about even if discussions were still on-going. Nice to know why now though.

eromelcm7 wrote...

So what can we do to change it? How did
it get this way? Serious question: How can we improve the BSN to a
friendly place of discussion and avoid future toxification?

I feel I can help shed a bit of light on some of this.

I originally came to this site because of my crazy probably less than healthy love for Mass Effect 2. And after boring my real friends and family members to death about the game decided to come here to talk to other fans. Because I'd been playing BioWare games since KOTOR rocked my then Middle School mind I expanded throughout the forums.

At first while I was here there was a lot of positivity for ME2 just as sure as there was a very vocal group talking all about how ME2 sucked because it abandoned its RPG core (which is, by and large, the single largest argument that causes me to exit out of a thread these days. I'm sick to death of that statement.) But overall it was still positive.

I feel the aura of negativity has risen because DA2, ME3, and SWOR were disappoints at least to those that freqent these forums. Disappointment gets aired by multiple users and eventually turns into complete raging.

And here's the important bit --- raging feels good. It's actually addictive. And since this is the internet and the internet is the land of "Love it or Burn it Publically" it all starts to feed itself. And so what started off as "It's not as good as I hoped" devolves into "EAWare should be charged with war crimes for releasing this game" and quickly devolves into far worse.

There's also a growing Negativity Bias happening throughout the forums. In general I get the feeling that users here actually want to see the next BioWare games fail. Because then they'll be right.

I've been trying to lay off the negativity. And I've been trying to avoid the ME3 boards (mostly I'm successful in that but I've given in a few times in the last half year). I've also been trying to hold back on these boards until there is actual news about the game to discuss. I also feel the departure of Allan Schumacher from the BSN has soured me more than a little. The guy was here all the time always engaging the fans and even starting threads in the Off-Topic forums and just talking about video games and other media like a normal human being is wont to do.

And he felt the need to take a break.

Maybe things will calm down. But it would have to be because we the users decide to tone down the hyperbole and vitriol. That we all agree and maintain that we can disagree with each other without threats and name calling. That we can state what we disliked about a game without berating BioWare and making demands that they change everything according to our personal whims.

Maybe it will happen. Maybe it starts here.

[addiction21]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

I understand. It's not like I can't deal with one game I don't like, but the thing David Gaider and the others don't realize is that they'd clear up much of the fuss and controversy by facing it instead of hiding from it. Just a few thoughts, just saying.

They face it and then they get dogpiled on by people demanding they "admit their mistakes"  in other words "I disagree with what X BioWare developer said so I will continue to gnash my teeth and spew vitriol everywhere"
Posters who seem to just lurk waiting for one of them to post so they can try to bait them into a fight then cry foul when the hammer comes down. Then cry abuse.
So many who maliciously twist anything they say to throw back in their face.
Those posters who know what their intents and reason were better then the actual developers.
And then they cry about how the developers do not come around anymore.


And I absolutely agree with Moonsong from the last page. Its up to the community to help out as much as any moderator or developer and that also includes not giving such people a free pass on the childish and insulting actions because you happen to agree with their point.
It is possible to still not like DA2, ME3, the endings, DLC's etc etc etc... and point out someone being a jerk and not defend them.