224 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Yeah it's beating a dead horse, but let me have the bat for a change. I haven't had my turn yet.

Like I said, i knew it was bad, but i never really sat down and thought about it. What blows my mind about this is that Bioware had a gaping wide opportunity to expand on this scene. To set the record straight that Shepard is alive and rescued. But they didn't. And that there is just something I don't understand. Because they knew people complained about that scene. They knew people wanted a reunion. And when they were working on the EC, and they got to that scene, they had the chance right then and there to fix it.

And they decided not to. They decided to not let their loyal fans, have that satisfying ending where their hero gets to live.

I don't think I understand this scene anymore. I mean what is the point? All the other endings set the record straight with what happens next, but Destroy just leaves you hanging. Every ending seems to have one major perk to it. Synthesis creates a perfect utopia. Arguable but that was the message it was trying to get across. And then Control turns Shepard into a Reaper god. But then the perk for the Destroy ending was Shepard living. So then why do we get this ambiguous 10 second clip of him taking a breath, and then have guys like Priestly and Gamble say it could be his last breath.

Bioware claims that they listen, and I understand they can't always be beholden to us. But this is something that really should've been properly addressed in the EC. Without question. And it's one of the reasons I feel that there's still a disconnect between Bioware and the fan community.

It's not a breath.

It was a chestbuster.

Bioware are setting up an Alien/Mass Effect crossover.

[Priss Blackburne]

Hmm in both control and synthesis they burn away Shepard leaving his/her cybernetics. In Destroy the opposite happens, your left with original Shepard...who probably needs a good doctor however.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[The Geth Spectre]

If they faded to black after ,and you heard your LI or even like a soldier yell out " we got a body over here". Then you hear " it's Shepard and he/she is breathing". Or if it was your LI saying " stay with me, we'll fix you up" that would go miles.

[Senenzon]

The Geth Spectre wrote...

If they faded to black after ,and you heard your LI or even like a soldier yell out " we got a body over here". Then you hear " it's Shepard and he/she is breathing". Or if it was your LI saying " stay with me, we'll fix you up" that would go miles.

That would do more than save the whole game for me!

[almondroy]

Archonsg wrote...

Those observant enough or with medical knowledge and logic will deduce that Shepard dying and if no immediate medical attention is given he's likely dead in a matter of minutes.

...I don't know how well this line of reasoning works in a series where the same individual was dead/not breathing for two years and was revived...

For my two bits, I think this was intended to be part of the original idea where IT was the direction Bioware was going and got relegated to Easter Egg status when the story was revised. In its current placement in the official storyline, it's either a speculation-introducing red herring or a opportunity that was never capitalized on. EC's modified Destroy ending is an attempt to capitalize on this scene due to fan reaction. Simply cutting this scene when the game was originally released probably would have saved a lot of people, both fans and Bioware employees, a lot of stress and angst (seeing it with the benefit of hindsight).

Modifié par almondroy, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:48 .

[AlanC9]

almondroy wrote...
Simply cutting this scene when the game was originally released probably would have saved a lot of people, both fans and Bioware employees, a lot of stress and angst (seeing it with the benefit of hindsight).

Meaning that if they'd just killed Shepard outright things would have gone better?

[Archonsg]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


I imagine Bio just figured that people would interpret that scene the way they'd interpret such a scene in a movie or TV show. In other media Shepard would be obviously alive.

Such scenes are generally reserved for monsters, axe-wielding psychopaths, and other unsavory beings the protagonist spends much of the story trying to put in the ground in the first place.  This doesn't speak highly of Shepard.

Lacking exposition, any media that has such a scene are essentially catering to the lowest denominator in terms of expectation, intelligence or observation. 

Summer teen horror flicks comes to mind.

There is also the real difference between other media and a game. Not necessarily a RPG game but any game, has the player play an active role as opposed to a movie or TV show. On the one hand you are told what would happen throughout your experience with zero input from you. On the other hand, in a game you are an active participant, forming the story, playing it out with investment in how that story turns out.
Just a "You are now dead. Opps, not really, you are *mostly* dead." won't cut it as the player being invested wants to know how / why / what happens next.

Simply put, I do understand what the devs intended that scene to depict. But without exposition and the "what happens next" scene required, both views, that Shepard is alive and that without help, Shepard took his last final breaths before bleeding to death, alone and forgotten are equally valid.

Modifié par Archonsg, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

In the same manner that everyone acknowledges George Bush Jr. wasn't the smartest President, I think it's more and more obvious (to more and more people) that Bioware really dropped the ball with ME3.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:58 .

[d-boy15]

they need to have an ending where shepard alive but shouldn't overshadow other ending.

you know... if they have something like shepard reunion with crews or rise from wreckage
like a boss, more peoples will go for it and it automatically make destroy as best ending.

so, by keep breath scene without expand it is win-win (for bioware), no need to spend more
resource and they can keep synthesis as best ending.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:03 .

[InvincibleHero]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

In the same manner that everyone acknowledges George Bush Jr. wasn't the smartest President, I think it's more and more obvious (to more and more people) that Bioware really dropped the ball with ME3.

By what dint of logic do you put those two things together? An insult about a former president presumably you don't like phrased in a way that could be accurate as just one president has to be smarter than him to make it true which is considered a near 100% probability paired with your opinion (unsupported) that BW dropped the ball. The word fallacy comes to mind.

[evilgummybear]

i figured it out
BIOWARE = REAPERS
PLAYERS = INDOCTRINATED!!

we have been fooled!!

[AlanC9]

Archonsg wrote...

Simply put, I do understand what the devs intended that scene to depict. But without exposition and the "what happens next" scene required, both views, that Shepard is alive and that without help, Shepard took his last final breaths before bleeding to death, alone and forgotten are equally valid.

Well, if someone really wants to interpret the scene as Shep dying a couple of seconds later, it's possible. It's still a bizarre interpretation, though, since it means that there's a whole scene that conveys no information.

I can't actually think of a cinematic equivalent.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:10 .

[almondroy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Meaning that if they'd just killed Shepard outright things would have gone better?

In the sense that there would be closure like the other two (three) endings, yes. The fact that Destroy is arguably the most ambiguous ending as currently written caused a lot of problems. We wouldn't have thousands of posts and angst over IT*, for example if the fate of Shepard was explicit in all of the endings. People would not be happy that Shepard gave his/her life in all of the endings, but at least Bioware's stance of "No Shepard in ME4" would make sense if Shepard doesn't survive and there's no Lazarus Project II happening.


(NOTE: I think IT would have been great if the company implemented/implements it, but that's not the game we currently have)

Modifié par almondroy, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:14 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

In the same manner that everyone acknowledges George Bush Jr. wasn't the smartest President, I think it's more and more obvious (to more and more people) that Bioware really dropped the ball with ME3.

By what dint of logic do you put those two things together? An insult about a former president presumably you don't like phrased in a way that could be accurate as just one president has to be smarter than him to make it true which is considered a near 100% probability paired with your opinion (unsupported) that BW dropped the ball. The word fallacy comes to mind.

I'm not sure if you missed the backlash Bioware received for ME3's endings, but the notion that Bioware dropped the ball on ME3 is quite supported.


I have no beef with George Bush Jr (which I used as the subject of a light-hearted analogy).  However, there was a time where you could not speak negatively about his oratory skills and capabilities (Dixie chicks come to mind).  As the 2nd term rolled around, the accusations against Bush became generally accepted and more openly permitted/acknowledged.  Hopefully that makes more sense to you.  If you still think it's fallacy after you've given it some thought, I'd be happy to break it down further.  Cheers.

[demersel]

Well it could mean that shepard was hallucinating the whole thing.... Just saying.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Simply put, I do understand what the devs intended that scene to depict. But without exposition and the "what happens next" scene required, both views, that Shepard is alive and that without help, Shepard took his last final breaths before bleeding to death, alone and forgotten are equally valid.

Well, if someone really wants to interpret the scene as Shep dying a couple of seconds later, it's possible. It's still a bizarre interpretation, though, since it means that there's a whole scene that conveys no information.

I can't actually think of a cinematic equivalent.

By any chance, have you ever seen the movie Shane?  How about The Thing ('80s version)?

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Simply put, I do understand what the devs intended that scene to depict. But without exposition and the "what happens next" scene required, both views, that Shepard is alive and that without help, Shepard took his last final breaths before bleeding to death, alone and forgotten are equally valid.

Well, if someone really wants to interpret the scene as Shep dying a couple of seconds later, it's possible. It's still a bizarre interpretation, though, since it means that there's a whole scene that conveys no information.

I can't actually think of a cinematic equivalent.

I do respect and in fact understand the breath scene = Shepard is alive at that point and will live regardless of what is known, what is shown prior.

All I am asking is, looked from my perspective, you have a Shepard who was already in shock, bleeding out, you have a situation where the explosion that Shepard set off tore up and badly damaged the citadel, without a helmet, or fully functioning armor. Even with all his enhancements, he is still of flesh and bone.
I was a combat enginner, so yeah, I *know* exactly what an explosion can do to a hunan body.

Then we have the ambiguity of whether or not Shepard is on the Citadel or on Earth, visual evidence says Earth London, but it could be shoddy lazy work depicting broken concrete / tarmac.

Though whether or not Shepard is on the Citadel, Bioware needs to at least give the player a reasonable premise to work on as to hiw he could survive, blast and space.

So, even if I can accept that Shepard somehow lived through that explosion, and that is a big if, why his head and limbs aren't shorn off at the expose points, my experience and logic tells me he needs help, more so now that his implants were supposed to be destroyed.

Please understand that just that 10 secs and a gasp, and it was a gasp and not constant breathing, paints a very poor picture of Shepard's survival. Since we aren't shown that he received help of any kind. To jump from gasp to "he's alive and well!" is illogical.

[DeinonSlayer]

Guy was still healthy enough to sprint. That says something.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Guy was still healthy enough to sprint. That says something.

There were a lot of inconsistencies in those final moments.  He was also healthy enough to potentially take 2 consecutive explosions at point-blank range.

[Meltemph]

Ya, trying to get an idea of the writers/directors/ect intent, with showing shep alive(sorta) in a pile of rubble is near impossible with the information given before that scene(both pre and post EC). You can come up with a ton of theories as to why, but essentially just that. And it isn't like there is going to be another game that explains this intent, so it is essentially an "almost but not quite" easter egg.

Showing that he lived(as in standing on a pile of rubble looking around) is one thing, but showing a quick breath scene, then fading to the credits is something quite different. The intentions with that scens, is nothing short of ambiguity and obfuscation, imo. That is the only conceivable intent of that scene, to me.  The big question that, I think, should be answered(only because with out the answer the scene is nonsensical, in context) is WHY they decided to show that scene(unless the really did write the script that "simple minded" and just wanted speculation for speculations sake).

Modifié par Meltemph, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:10 .

[Monster_user]

Finally, I can post,... Jumping through hoops just to get access,...

I think the breath scene was supposed to show what the "Refuse" ending has a speech for, Shepard dying free. Just play Shepard's Refuse speech while looking at that last shot of Shepard from the Destroy ending, when Harbi says "So be it", Shepard breathes his last.

I'm of the viewpoint that the destroy, and refuse endings are essentially the exact same ending. Still haven't quite figured out what "synthesis" or "control" are exactly,... What will happen to Shepard after those two?

Modifié par Monster_user, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:26 .

[jfeth713]

For some reason I get the feeling that if Bioware adds a scene with Shepard up and walking about a lot of people will suddenly stop caring about how he survived the explosion.

[Cecilia L]

but but but the Real Ending Expansion? It was setting us up for that, right, RIGHT??

[Meltemph]

jfeth713 wrote...

For some reason I get the feeling that if Bioware adds a scene with Shepard up and walking about a lot of people will suddenly stop caring about how he survived the explosion.

Well, the idea would be that if they showed him up and walking around, they would have to explain it.  The way it is handled here, for whatever reason, they dont think they need to explain themselves as to why or how the breath scene is even possible.

[Fnork]

There's nothing to get. It's an easter egg they stuck in there when they started wondering if perhaps they made things in general or just destroy a little too bleak, I don't remember which. This was mentioned somewhere, think someone asked that question at some convention and it was reported here later on.