224 réponses à ce sujet

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

If the Indoctrination Theory is holding back post-breath scene content they would have otherwise included...that theory is gonna break when ME4 comes out anyway. It broke when no IT DLC came out for 10 months. Might as well make the ending to the game somewhat better by expanding upon the unsatisfying breath scene.

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

You have to blame the voters as well. Had they just been honest and said "No, I don't believe in IT", there wouldn't be this problem. And we would've seen Shep getting out of tbe rubble or possibly even him getting picked up by the Normandy (not that I need such a scene)

I'd blame Bioware for not being thorough enough and asking the right questions.

[Kais Endac]

crimzontearz wrote...
yeah they confirmed it
 
Although right now they are being ultra tight lipped about Cortana

Cortana is one of my favorite characters (Halo really got me into sci fi games, start wars started my disent but halo finished it) so I wasnt pleased when I heard she died. But I suspect that she has a greater role to play and will probably return in some form. 343 being tight lipped about it is also suspicious but we will have to wait and see. 

I should probably get back on topic so....... The breath scene is not really questionable it is a fact that shepard breathes. Players can interpret that in any number of ways, though I think bioware intended it to mean he surivevd. My problem is that the scene is too short and lacks sufficent closure to a 90+ hour trilogy. I have no problems with the other endings but at the end of the day would love to see bioware add some more closure to destroy Shepard (however unlikly that may be).

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:47 .

[crimzontearz]

Dude....really, there is a huge thread about her on waypoint. The just of it tho is that ultimately John is never EVER shown recovering her from the Librarian who is still undamaged on requiem...which leads people to believe that she is still there at least a good chunk of her neural net.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Yes, you don't end a game with such a huge amount of investment with a tease and what would be in any other medium a cliffhanger ending. Of course there will never be a sequel to ME3, so it's less like a cliffhanger and more of an unsatisfying non-ending, hours and hours of build up leading to disappointment. There's lots wrong with the final ME3 sequence but it would make it better and I would appreciate it as a fan if a brief minute or so long scene was added after the rubble in the next DLC or something.

It would just be easier to imagine from and think about what happened next. Going from the rubble is unsatisfying because that scene doesn't imply to me that he made it out OK, but more so that he's dying on a rock world barely breathing. And dead bodies do twitch and move. To not show him on his feet or with his friends - when I think of what he does next, it doesn't feel "real" to me, like as if I'm convincing myself of a lie or trying to believe fan-fiction is real.

"The breath scene is not questionable it is a fact that shepard breathes. Players can interpret that in any number of ways though I think bioware intended it to mean he surivevd. My problem is that the scene is too short and lacks sufficent closure to a 90+ hour trilogy."

Modifié par PKchu, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:39 .

[Kais Endac]

crimzontearz wrote...

Dude....really, there is a huge thread about her on waypoint. The just of it tho is that ultimately John is never EVER shown recovering her from the Librarian who is still undamaged on requiem...which leads people to believe that she is still there at least a good chunk of her neural net.

Ok now you've got me curious I'm gonna have to replay that level to see for myself.


The "dude really" was that because I liked cortana or halo as a sci fi. In my defence I was 13 at the time so halo was a good starting point for me. As for cortana I just like her personality and humanity compared to the machine John is.
edit: misread post

I don't really visit waypoint so havn't seen the threads though I suspect there are many conspircay theories on how she could have survived. 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:48 .

[crimzontearz]

Kais Endac wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Dude....really, there is a huge thread about her on waypoint. The just of it tho is that ultimately John is never EVER shown recovering her from the Librarian who is still undamaged on requiem...which leads people to believe that she is still there at least a good chunk of her neural net.

Ok now you've got me curious I'm gonna have to replay that level to see for myself.


The "dude really" was that because I liked cortana or halo as a sci fi. In my defence I was 13 at the time so halo was a good starting point for me. As for cortana I just like her personality and humanity compared to the machine John is.
edit: misread post

I don't really visit waypoint so havn't seen the threads though I suspect there are many conspircay theories on how she could have survived. 

well, as long as a shard big enough of her is alive and well she can be recompiled. Thing is as I said you are never shown recovering her thus the thought that she could be alive still. On top of that The librarian said Cortana was part of het evolutionary endpoint for humans to attain the mantle, the didact goes as far as assuming Cortana is what the Lubrarian kept secret from him.


 
AND remember both the Storm Covenant and Halsey are looking for the Librarian now

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You have to blame the voters as well. Had they just been honest and said "No, I don't believe in IT", there wouldn't be this problem. And we would've seen Shep getting out of tbe rubble or possibly even him getting picked up by the Normandy (not that I need such a scene)

I'd blame Bioware for not being thorough enough and asking the right questions.

the question was completely straight forward. It was a Yes or No question. You.can't expect Bioware to fully assume and know what motivates someone to vote yes or no....were they supposed to put a disclaimer at the top.of the poll saying: "Don't vote 'Yes' if you want an extended Breathe scene." ?

Modifié par Mcfly616, 10 janvier 2013 - 02:59 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Best way to put it, IMO:

Imagine if ME1's rubble scene was just ME3's. It would be less annoying because you'd know there would likely be a sequel, but at the same time it's not as emotionally uplifting/exciting a sequence. ME3's rubble scene should have paralleled ME1's. And it could have been very short, not even a minute long. What we currently get is just too abrupt and ends at a bad place to visualize from.

EDIT: @McFly: Asking "yes/no" questions when people have varying levels of interest/attachment to an idea is a bad idea. If you would have asked me that question, I would have put "No, but I would not mind an IT DLC." I'm sure some people who thought like me simply answered yes and gave an impression of being more attached to IT then they were. 

Modifié par PKchu, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:06 .

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

I paid 100+ for all three games (not to mention buying DLC) and I want a clear cut ending. I didn't spend all that money to speculate what MIGHT happen to Shepard and the rest of the galaxy. Yes, some ambiguity is nice in small doses as it lets people think about the series enough to intice them back into re-playing the trilogy, but because BioWare basically said "He's alive - now go watch the credits." is ridiculous. Many people became emotionally invested in the game (myself included) and want to know what happens to your LI and see the full impact of all the decisions you made throughout the trilogy.

The showed a bit of that in the EC, but not enough to make me go, "Yeah, I made the right choice on that one." or "I shouldn't have done that."

And the fact that they let a faction of the fanbase dictate what the endings are going to look like is appalling. I don't want the community's interpretation of game, I want BioWare's. You know, the people who I bought the game from.

Modifié par SneakyFox, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[Kais Endac]

PKchu wrote...

Best way to put it, IMO:

Imagine if ME1's rubble scene was just ME3's. It would be less annoying because you'd know there would likely be a sequel, but at the same time it's not as emotionally uplifting/exciting a sequence. ME3's rubble scene should have paralleled ME1's. And it could have been very short, not even a minute long. What we currently get is just too abrupt and ends at a bad place to visualize from.

EDIT: @McFly: Asking "yes/no" questions when people have varying levels of interest/attachment to an idea is a bad idea. If you would have asked me that question, I would have put "No, but I would not mind an IT DLC." I'm sure some people who thought like me simply answered yes and gave an impression of being more attached to IT then they were. 

I agree to both points ME1 comparison is approriate and I definatly feel the rubble scene is more inline with a cliffhanger ending leading to a sequel.
 
A poll is to vague to gain an appreciation of what people wanted yes/no answers leave too much unsaid. A detailed survey would have been better with a comments section uder each answer to allow people to explain. But quite simply Bioware did not have the time to issue such a survey or the logistics since ideally it would be given to each ME player to determine what they liked/hated. Also it would be impossible to implement such ideas due to the conflict between different answers.

IT theory to me will remain fanfiction but I probably would have answered yes to such the IT poll if I thought I would get a more satisfactory Shepard lives ending.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:27 .

[Mcfly616]

PKchu wrote...

Best way to put it, IMO:

Imagine if ME1's rubble scene was just ME3's. It would be less annoying because you'd know there would likely be a sequel, but at the same time it's not as emotionally uplifting/exciting a sequence. ME3's rubble scene should have paralleled ME1's. And it could have been very short, not even a minute long. What we currently get is just too abrupt and ends at a bad place to visualize from.

EDIT: @McFly: Asking "yes/no" questions when people have varying levels of interest/attachment to an idea is a bad idea. If you would have asked me that question, I would have put "No, but I would not mind an IT DLC." I'm sure some people who thought like me simply answered yes and gave an impression of being more attached to IT then they were. 

they weren't asking in regards to a "DLC". They simply asked: Do you believe in IT, yes or no. And while I see what you're getting at, there's also a major problem with your way of doing things.....if give the entire Retake movement a yes or no question and then ask them "Why?" they voted yes or no, you're going to get thousands upon thousands of completely different reasons (and a bunch idiotic ones, I'm sure)....you can't cater to thousands of differing wants and needs. Putting them in 2 different categories, provides a better chance to cover atleast the majority of peoples concerns

They specifically stated that they didn't want to hear "Yes, because..." Or "No, because...."

They wanted it lumped into "yes I believe" or "No I don't." Had the majority of people just answered honestly, we'd be sitting here with an extended breathe scene and possibly a reunion. But, Bioware being the studio they are, listened to the overwhelming feedback, and decided that "extending" the breathe scene would alienate the overwhelming majority that voted "Yes". It's not their fault that people voted dishonestly.

They listened to the feedback. Not their fault the fans literally shot themselves in the foot.

[Mcfly616]

Kais Endac wrote...

PKchu wrote...

Best way to put it, IMO:

Imagine if ME1's rubble scene was just ME3's. It would be less annoying because you'd know there would likely be a sequel, but at the same time it's not as emotionally uplifting/exciting a sequence. ME3's rubble scene should have paralleled ME1's. And it could have been very short, not even a minute long. What we currently get is just too abrupt and ends at a bad place to visualize from.

EDIT: @McFly: Asking "yes/no" questions when people have varying levels of interest/attachment to an idea is a bad idea. If you would have asked me that question, I would have put "No, but I would not mind an IT DLC." I'm sure some people who thought like me simply answered yes and gave an impression of being more attached to IT then they were. 

I agree to both points 
A poll is to vague to gain an appreciation of what people wanted yes/no answers leave too much unsaid. A detailed survey would have been better with a comments section uder each answer to allow people to explain. But quite simply Bioware did not have the time to issue such a survey or the logistics since ideally it would be given to each ME player to determine what they liked/hated. Also it would be impossible to implement such ideas due to the conflict between pro and anti.

IT theory to me will remain fanfiction but I probably would have answered yes to such the IT poll if I thought I would get a more satisfactory Shepard lives ending.

as I said in my previous post. What you're asking for is essentially pointless and impossible. Asking 80,000 people to explain why they voted yes or no, gives you thousands of varying reasons, too many to wishes to fulfill. Better to lump it into yes or no, so that they can cover a broader amount of the concerns.

I should also add that the poll was conducted less than 2 weeks.before the EC released. Therefore, I'm under the assumption that they had an Extended Breathe Scene/Reunion completed and ready to go....and they were deciding whether to include it in the Extended Cut, based on whether the majority voted yes or no to IT. They would've put it in if the majority voted "No". Since 80% voted Yes (for some reason), they left it out because they didn't want to ****** off such a large group of people.

You cant really expect Bioware to know that mad amounts of people only Voted "Yes" because they thought it would get them an entirely new ending

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

There's a balance though: give five options instead of yes/no. You don't need a survey, but you get *much* more accurate and less misleading results.

Frankly, after such a disaster, failing to be precise in your market research is just poor form. If you as a developer are just unwilling to change elements of the ending (and as we saw, they are), don't ask questions about changing the ending on a grand scale you won't live up to.

And if they wanted to support the Indoctrination Theory with the breath scene, they should have actually just made "The Truth" DLC. If they weren't willing to do that they should have improved what existed.

...

" Therefore, I'm under the assumption that they had an Extended Breathe Scene/Reunion completed and ready to go....and they were deciding whether to include it in the Extended Cut, based on whether the majority voted yes or no to IT."

If this is true and it's just sitting on a server somewhere, oh man...tragic. : (

Modifié par PKchu, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[Kais Endac]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

PKchu wrote...

Best way to put it, IMO:

Imagine if ME1's rubble scene was just ME3's. It would be less annoying because you'd know there would likely be a sequel, but at the same time it's not as emotionally uplifting/exciting a sequence. ME3's rubble scene should have paralleled ME1's. And it could have been very short, not even a minute long. What we currently get is just too abrupt and ends at a bad place to visualize from.

EDIT: @McFly: Asking "yes/no" questions when people have varying levels of interest/attachment to an idea is a bad idea. If you would have asked me that question, I would have put "No, but I would not mind an IT DLC." I'm sure some people who thought like me simply answered yes and gave an impression of being more attached to IT then they were. 

I agree to both points 
A poll is to vague to gain an appreciation of what people wanted yes/no answers leave too much unsaid. A detailed survey would have been better with a comments section uder each answer to allow people to explain. But quite simply Bioware did not have the time to issue such a survey or the logistics since ideally it would be given to each ME player to determine what they liked/hated. Also it would be impossible to implement such ideas due to the conflict between pro and anti.

IT theory to me will remain fanfiction but I probably would have answered yes to such the IT poll if I thought I would get a more satisfactory Shepard lives ending.

as I said in my previous post. What you're asking for is essentially pointless and impossible. Asking 80,000 people to explain why they voted yes or no, gives you thousands of varying reasons, too many to wishes to fulfill. Better to lump it into yes or no, so that they can cover a broader amount of the concerns.

I should also add that the poll was conducted less than 2 weeks.before the EC released. Therefore, I'm under the assumption that they had an Extended Breathe Scene/Reunion completed and ready to go....and they were deciding whether to include it in the Extended Cut, based on whether the majority voted yes or no to IT. They would've put it in if the majority voted "No". Since 80% voted Yes (for some reason), they left it out because they didn't want to ****** off such a large group of people.

You cant really expect Bioware to know that mad amounts of people only Voted "Yes" because they thought it would get them an entirely new ending

err..... I did say It was impossible. I said that ideally you would issue a survey but given the time and nature of the problem it was impractical. I agree with the sentiments behind the poll and the problem it presents.

Suveys and polls both present probems both with the reliabiltiy of the information and the thousands of different answers to each question. While a yes or no poll dilutes the issue. I mean do I say no in which case I could be stuck with the current endings or say yes and hope for the best, when in actual fact I could care less about IT and just want my happy ending, closure or more clarity of information.  I could not answer and be left unheard or even rant on the forums.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:41 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You have to blame the voters as well. Had they just been honest and said "No, I don't believe in IT", there wouldn't be this problem. And we would've seen Shep getting out of tbe rubble or possibly even him getting picked up by the Normandy (not that I need such a scene)

I'd blame Bioware for not being thorough enough and asking the right questions.

the question was completely straight forward. It was a Yes or No question. You.can't expect Bioware to fully assume and know what motivates someone to vote yes or no....were they supposed to put a disclaimer at the top.of the poll saying: "Don't vote 'Yes' if you want an extended Breathe scene." ?

I can and I do.  Yes/no  is a stupid way to ask a question like that, as there are varying degrees of that answer.  Heck there's varying Indoctrination Theories!

What motivates them is as important, maybe even more so, than simple belief.

[Mcfly616]

PKchu wrote...

There's a balance though: give five options instead of yes/no. You don't need a survey, but you get *much* more accurate and less misleading results.

Frankly, after such a disaster, failing to be precise in your market research is just poor form. If you as a developer are just unwilling to change elements of the ending (and as we saw, they are), don't ask questions about changing the ending on a grand scale you won't live up to.

And if they wanted to support the Indoctrination Theory with the breath scene, they should have actually just made "The Truth" DLC. If they weren't willing to do that they should have improved what existed.

...

" Therefore, I'm under the assumption that they had an Extended Breathe Scene/Reunion completed and ready to go....and they were deciding whether to include it in the Extended Cut, based on whether the majority voted yes or no to IT."

If this is true and it's just sitting on a server somewhere, oh man...tragic. : (

umm they didn't want.the breathe scene to.support IT at all. They simply decided against adding to it because it would ****** off IT fans. We all know BW didn't intend for IT at all. They don't.support it in any way whatsoever. They just chose not to utterly destroy it because they didn't want another backlash

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The Extended Cut existing at all and not being a Truth DLC is pretty much killing IT. I'm sure it pissed them off anyway.

I'm sure a lot of IT fans would have been happy to see the ending improved in at least one area, IT persists partly because of ending dissatisfication. And while it would have not erased all major problems, it would have been at least more enjoyable in some respects. As is the ending feels very unfinished and unfulfilling.

I just don't really grasp/agree their values in constructing the ending, I suppose.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

You have to blame the voters as well. Had they just been honest and said "No, I don't believe in IT", there wouldn't be this problem. And we would've seen Shep getting out of tbe rubble or possibly even him getting picked up by the Normandy (not that I need such a scene)

I'd blame Bioware for not being thorough enough and asking the right questions.

the question was completely straight forward. It was a Yes or No question. You.can't expect Bioware to fully assume and know what motivates someone to vote yes or no....were they supposed to put a disclaimer at the top.of the poll saying: "Don't vote 'Yes' if you want an extended Breathe scene." ?

I can and I do.  Yes/no  is a stupid way to ask a question like that, as there are varying degrees of that answer.  Heck there's varying Indoctrination Theories!

What motivates them is as important, maybe even more so, than simple belief.

sifting through 60,000+ completely different reasons, in less than 2 weeks, simply to decide whether or not to include the extended breathe scene.....well that's not.realistic at all. Not enough time. They had the scene ready to go. Since people seemingly.didnt.want IT ruined, BW didn't include the extension

Edit: and it seems you're just unrealistic all together....you expect someone (BW) to know that someone was lying when they voted "Yes I believe in IT"??

Sure, they should absolutely see that you voted "Yes" because you actually want an all new ending, so you voted Yes for IT....but in your.mind.you don't really believe in it.....Bioware should.totally be capable of.reading thousands of.peoples minds and know that they really dont believe in IT. They just lied and said they did because they have ulterior motives.... (Sarcasm....obviously)

Modifié par Mcfly616, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:46 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Well, whatever. At this point I think they have enough feedback to understand people's opinions.

Hopefully they add something at the end of the final DLC. That would be pleasant.

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

I can and I do.  Yes/no  is a stupid way to ask a question like that, as there are varying degrees of that answer.  Heck there's varying Indoctrination Theories!

What motivates them is as important, maybe even more so, than simple belief.

sifting through 60,000+ completely different reasons, in less than 2 weeks, simply to decide whether or not to include the extended breathe scene.....well that's not.realistic at all. Not enough time. They had the scene ready to go. Since people seemingly.didnt.want IT ruined, BW didn't include the extension

Then asking the question at all was a waste of everyone's time. 

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

If the point of the question was to ask if a reunion should have been implemented or not, the question should have just been "Is it important for you to see Shepard reunite with his crew?"

I guarantee you if they asked it that way it would have been an overwhelming "yes" to "no" ratio. A lot of times your answers are based on how you are asked questions.

If that truly was what Bioware was trying to do, they screwed up their research.

And if you are somehow right and they really just have it put together on their hard drive, they should just release it at this point. They could do with a little fanservice.

Modifié par PKchu, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:52 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I think it's alright, to be honest. It's an old well known trick, showing the main dude/villain waking up after we thought they were dead.

Doesn't bother me, and destroy is my second favorite ending.

[crimzontearz]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I think it's alright, to be honest. It's an old well known trick, showing the main dude/villain waking up after we thought they were dead.

Doesn't bother me, and destroy is my second favorite ending.

wake up≠take a breath which bioware implied could be their last. At the very end of a trilogy and with THESE circumstances? Big no no.


 
Compare that to the "wake up" scene in Avatar...the context sets us up for much MUCH better outcomes

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

I think you could actually make it better with *5* more seconds.

Put triumphant music there instead and a hand pulling Shepard up. Just getting up. That would have even been OK, not great, but much better.