210 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

I felt like that too, at first, but I now know that I can't blame the writers on that one. The crucible was the only hope and the galaxy sacrificed just about all its strength in order to build it and bring it there, so if you just decide not to use it and throw all that away, you lose. There's not much more to it. The reapers crush the remains of your fleets and the harvest continues. What else should have happened?

[Clayless]

xsdob wrote...

People forget fans demanded to refuse the catalyst, even if it resulted in their losing the game.

I can find the post after post to prove it to, if you'd like.

Everyone, this is the most important post in this thread.

It honestly astounds me that people are blaming Bioware for implementing the very thing they asked for.

[HBC Dresden]

adam32867 wrote...

the middle finger is that the next cycle uses the crucible anyway. which means you might as well chose something. though i think a conventional victory could have been weighted to not seem better or worse than the others ie higher casualty rate over destruction but each species survives instead of one being wiped out (geth).

It is never stated in the game that the next cycle uses the Crucible, only the vague hint in the post credits scene that Liara's Box gave them the necessary information to succeed. (I don't count what one PR person says happened.)

[Bill Casey]

InvincibleHero wrote...

As if you can rewrite reality to be more to your liking if the ME3 ending were and actual occurance

...synthesis?

[Aaleel]

HBC Dresden wrote...

adam32867 wrote...

the middle finger is that the next cycle uses the crucible anyway. which means you might as well chose something. though i think a conventional victory could have been weighted to not seem better or worse than the others ie higher casualty rate over destruction but each species survives instead of one being wiped out (geth).

It is never stated in the game that the next cycle uses the Crucible, only the vague hint in the post credits scene that Liara's Box gave them the necessary information to succeed. (I don't count what one PR person says happened.)

PR person?  Mike Gamble is a producer, which means he has to work closely with the developers of the game.

[InvincibleHero]

Bill Casey wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

As if you can rewrite reality to be more to your liking if the ME3 ending were and actual occurance

...synthesis?

Well even though I don't like it that is presented as a viable option in the ME universe given by the devs in the original version of the game. I am unsure if anyone would have demanded it if the option was not available.

[MattFini]

I plan on closing out my third play through with refuse.

Getting tired of Destroy and I will never choose Synthesis or Control.

[deimosmasque]

Aaleel wrote...

HBC Dresden wrote...

adam32867 wrote...

the middle finger is that the next cycle uses the crucible anyway. which means you might as well chose something. though i think a conventional victory could have been weighted to not seem better or worse than the others ie higher casualty rate over destruction but each species survives instead of one being wiped out (geth).

It is never stated in the game that the next cycle uses the Crucible, only the vague hint in the post credits scene that Liara's Box gave them the necessary information to succeed. (I don't count what one PR person says happened.)

PR person?  Mike Gamble is a producer, which means he has to work closely with the developers of the game.

To my knowledge it was Jessica Merizan, not Mike Gamble who made the statement on twitter.  And she even took it back stating that is how she took it and not the official position of Bioware.

EDIT:  Though to be fair I might be misremembering myself.

Modifié par deimosmasque, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:35 .

[_aLucidMind_]

The middle finger isn't the Refuse ending, the middle finger was that tweet that was little more than "and the next cycle uses it instead because your Shepard was a ****" (not what was said, but the tone came off that way due to BioWare's seemingly disdainful stance towards criticism of the endings).

If you ignore that tweet, which is what I did, then it is easy to role-play and imagine your own ending. Mine was that our forces lost the war in what might as well have been a savage beat down but won the battle at Earth with significant losses but enough for us to have still felt confident. Due to all the information in the capsule (with a copy of Rosetta Stone to teach them English XP) as well as the number of losses and wasted resources the Reapers had to deal with from this cycle, the next cycle pulls off a conventional victory through thousands more years of preparation for the Reapers (but still barely pull it off, only managing to have just enough survive for a more than viable continuation of each species minus one or two).

Modifié par _aLucidMind_, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[andy6915]

Refuse Shepard's logic:

Shepard speaking to the Catalyst- See, here's the thing. You could be telling the truth, and shooting that pipe will end the Reaper's right here and now. But you could be lying, and shooting the pipe won't do anything. So I'm going to do the safe thing and not shoot the pipe at all. It's easier to assume it won't work then trying it out and knowing for sure. What do you mean "I'm a moron", Catalyst? That's not very nice

Modifié par andy69156915, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[DeinonSlayer]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

The middle finger isn't the Refuse ending, the middle finger was that tweet that was little more than "and the next cycle uses it instead because your Shepard was a ****" (not what was said, but the tone came off that way due to BioWare's seemingly disdainful stance towards criticism of the endings).

If you ignore that tweet, which is what I did, then it is easy to role-play and imagine your own ending. Mine was that our forces lost the war in what might as well have been a savage beat down but won the battle at Earth with significant losses but enough for us to have still felt confident. Due to all the information in the capsule (with a copy of Rosetta Stone to teach them English XP) as well as the number of losses and wasted resources the Reapers had to deal with from this cycle, the next cycle pulls off a conventional victory through thousands more years of preparation for the Reapers (but still barely pull it off, only managing to have just enough survive for a more than viable continuation of each species minus one or two).

So how many (millions? Billions?) did Shepard condemn in the next cycle, in addition to everyone in this cycle, out of an unwillingness to act?

When your choices are "leap of faith" or "certain death," you go with "leap of faith." Denial that conventional warfare will lead to eventual, certain, total defeat is stupidity, plain and simple.

[andy6915]

DeinonSlayer, your "leap of faith or certain death" statement just summed up the thoughts I was trying to convey in my post before yours better then I did. There are 2 choices, certain death or leap of faith. Refusers decide that certain death is the better option because the leap of faith might kill them too. Personally, I can't even BEGIN to understand that terrible logic. Never let these people play and old-school platforming game...

[_aLucidMind_]

andy69156915 wrote...

Refuse Shepard's logic:

Shepard speaking to the Catalyst- See, here's the thing. You could be telling the truth, and shooting that pipe will end the Reaper's right here and now. But you could be lying, and shooting the pipe won't do anything. So I'm going to do the safe thing and not shoot the pipe at all. It's easier to assume it won't work then trying it out and knowing for sure. What do you mean "I'm a moron", Catalyst? That's not very nice

Blasting a massive hole in a pipe that is one of the three chambers where the laser comes out of is hardly a good idea anyway. All three options would make any sane person question them.

Destroy: "Shoot this pipe; it it connected to the part that is projecting the laser and destroying the pipe will destroy all Reapers and Geth." Would you plug the chambers of a rifle and try to fire it? Because any sane person would reason that this is a similar scenario.

Control: "Grab those electrodes; I know it likely is thousands of volts but grab them. It will let you control the Reapers". Who the hell is going believe electrocuting yourself is going to not kill you AND give you mind-control powers?

Synthesis: "Jump into the massive laser and disintegrate yourself; this will cause my Reapers to seek peace with you all". How the hell is me killing myself going to make the Reapers want to stop killing everyone and then help them rebuild?

Come on, Shepard is an idiot in all four endings

[andy6915]

_aLucidMind_

So your solution is to not do any of them? If shooting the pipe actually does nothing and you try it anyway, you at least know now that it was lying and you're left in the same position then if you hadn't tried it in the first place and have lost nothing. Same thing to the other 2 choices. If you do it and it doesn't work, you're in no worse a position then you started in. If you do nothing when it would have worked, you was just the biggest moron in the entire galaxy.

[_aLucidMind_]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

The middle finger isn't the Refuse ending, the middle finger was that tweet that was little more than "and the next cycle uses it instead because your Shepard was a ****" (not what was said, but the tone came off that way due to BioWare's seemingly disdainful stance towards criticism of the endings).

If you ignore that tweet, which is what I did, then it is easy to role-play and imagine your own ending. Mine was that our forces lost the war in what might as well have been a savage beat down but won the battle at Earth with significant losses but enough for us to have still felt confident. Due to all the information in the capsule (with a copy of Rosetta Stone to teach them English XP) as well as the number of losses and wasted resources the Reapers had to deal with from this cycle, the next cycle pulls off a conventional victory through thousands more years of preparation for the Reapers (but still barely pull it off, only managing to have just enough survive for a more than viable continuation of each species minus one or two).

So how many (millions? Billions?) did Shepard condemn in the next cycle, in addition to everyone in this cycle, out of an unwillingness to act?

When your choices are "leap of faith" or "certain death," you go with "leap of faith." Denial that conventional warfare will lead to eventual, certain, total defeat is stupidity, plain and simple.

It wasn't stupidity; in this case, Shepard had blind faith in her civilizations' combined forces. She figured because she pulled off the impossible before, she could again and didn't want to risk the Crucible using the reasoning I did in my previous post. If you really look at all the choices from Shepard's point of view, all four are leaps of faith because s/he doesn't KNOW the Crucible will work, just that it might and that there may also be a possibility of the Catalyst trying it's hand at manipulation and lying (what S/HE knows, not what we know).

You say it is an unwillingness to act, but standing there to say they feel their military is the best bet out of three other options they feel is more of a gamble (if none worked, then Shepard killed him/herself for nothing and it would have been the same outcome as the Refuse ending) than just standing your ground is not being unwilling to act as they are still acting on the issue. Whether the choice (regardless of which one the person picks) is the best is debatable, but claiming it is the cowards way out or an unwillingness to act is completely incorrect as none of them are.

andy69156915 wrote...

_aLucidMind_

So your solution is to not do any of them? If shooting the pipe actually does nothing and you try it anyway, you at least know now that it was lying and you're left in the same position then if you hadn't tried it in the first place and have lost nothing. Same thing to the other 2 choices. If you do it and it doesn't work, you're in no worse a position then you started in. If you do nothing when it would have worked, you was just the biggest moron in the entire galaxy.

I never said my solution was not to do any; I was saying that none of the ways in which triggering the effect make any real sense to any sane person. Now, if you metagame, you would know the Catalyst wasn't lying and that each one of the three works as he said they would; I was just pointing out how each ending makes Shepard look stupid since he is just believing what essentially boils down to "kill yourself and you will win" from the creator of the Reapers.

That said, I chose Destroy my first playthrough. I dislike Synthesis, mainly because I would have picked Synthesis to have essentially been to become a Reaper rather than the way Synthesis is right now and for the Catalyst to have actually tried to convince Shepard. I only refuse to pick Control because Shepard, not once, even entertains the thought of it being possible or what could happen if the Reapers were used for good; instead it is "F-U TIM! Reapers are evil so Control is evil AND IMPOSSIBLE". Choosing Control is just completely out of character due to the dialogue.

Refuse was just that one Shepard's option as I have many Shepards, each with different personalities and each with a different logic.

Modifié par _aLucidMind_, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:27 .

[David7204]

This has been discussed countless times. The Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard.

[andy6915]

Again, it's very simple.

Option 1: kill yourself for certain
Option 2: possibly kill yourself

Refusing is choosing option 1.

[_aLucidMind_]

andy69156915 wrote...

Again, it's very simple.

Option 1: kill yourself for certain
Option 2: possibly kill yourself

Refusing is choosing option 1.

Only from a metagaming perspective; from Shepard's perspective, all four are Option 2.

[David7204]

No. The Catalyst tells Shepard what's going to happen. And as I said, the Catalyst has no reason to lie.

[garrusfan1]

I always thought they did it for IT or something since the holo kid gets a reaper voice all of a sudden. I am not saying it confirms IT of anything but it was like throwing a rotten bone covered with lice and ticks filled with lime disease to the IT fans.

[_aLucidMind_]

David7204 wrote...

No. The Catalyst tells Shepard what's going to happen. And as I said, the Catalyst has no reason to lie.

Actually, yes; it is logical for Shepard to not trust the Catalyst, just as it would also be logical for another person's Shepard to trust it. It depends on how the person role-plays their Shepard and how their Shepard percieves these events. I had one Shepard who didn't trust anything involving the Reapers; I had one willing to parlay with them. Another I was planning on either wanting to join or control but the dialogue throughout the game kinda threw that out the window.

Like I said, WE know for certain the Catalyst isn't lying; but Shepard doesn't. From Shepard's perspective, all four options is made based on nothing more than faith that the option s/he picked will put an end to the Reaper threat one way or another.

[Monster_user]

xAmilli0n wrote...
My only problem with refusal is that the next cycle ends up using the Crucible anyways.

Other than that, I think it worked pretty well (once you add some headcanon anways).

My headcanon removes everything after the last choice, it also makes the Refusal ending the only Good ending. Destroy comes in a close second though,...

See, according to my headcanon, all four endings are a dying hallucination by Shepard. The choices are merely what happens to Shepard, after he dies. Refusal means that Shepard dies free, thus good ending.

Modifié par Monster_user, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:41 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Reapers lie, the Catalyst controls the Reapers... it has every reason to lie.

[David7204]

It has less to do with faith and more to do with logic. What reason would the Catalyst have to give Shepard false information?

[JamesFaith]

Mendelevosa wrote...
Though people who wanted a refusal option also were in favor of winning the war conventionally, but with larger casualties. I'm pretty sure none of them expected to flat out lose the war and cause every sentient race to become extinct.

And here we can see main problem with adding any new ending to ME3.

I was here since beginning, so I still remember there were basically three groups of Refusers.

1. We refused Catalyst, because we will surely win with first time united galaxy and all those Thanix cannons and such.
2. We refused Catalyst and we will win but with dreadfull losses, destroyed planets and so on.
3. We rather let this cycle die then live under Catalyst's conditions.

There were dozens threads from all three groups and many where they fought between themselves.

Then BW decided to use Refuse end and chose one of these three options, which they saw most fitting for them, and what happenned? "Suprisingly" both other groups are still complaining that they didn't get THEIR ending and that fullfilled wish of third group is insult to them.

classic.