210 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

David7204 wrote...

No. The Catalyst tells Shepard what's going to happen. And as I said, the Catalyst has no reason to lie.

True, it's just an infodump like Vigil in ME1.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Does the old man have any reason to lie?

[David7204]

God damn do I hate that scene...

[Sajuro]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Again, it's very simple.

Option 1: kill yourself for certain
Option 2: possibly kill yourself

Refusing is choosing option 1.

Only from a metagaming perspective; from Shepard's perspective, all four are Option 2.

No, Synthesis control and Refuse are number 1, Destroy is number 2. Shepard has seen what the Reapers can do and that they are relentless now he just ups and gives up because he doesn't want to take a chance or he doesn't want to hurt any of his friends.
Where I'm from, we'd call that ****ing out

[_aLucidMind_]

David7204 wrote...

It has less to do with faith and more to do with logic. What reason would the Catalyst have to give Shepard false information?

All four options are logical, the order from most to least is subjective as it is different from person to person. A person's logic is based on how they percieve their past experiences, whether it is logical is determined by whether it is understandable as to why they would come to the conclusion they did.

If Shepard percieves the Reapers as pure evil, having no real reason for what they do and sees what they do as nothing more than brainwashing and murder then why would a Shepard so set on that opinion of the Reapers, and their creator by extension, actually trust the creator?

The Reapers' key tactic is manipulation and deception; it wouldn't be out of character for their creator to do the same. It is intangible, Shepard cannot destroy it; it knows that Shepard can't kill it if it lies but one could assume that it would be best to ensure Shepard dies to get rid of any possibility of him/her pulling the impossible like s/he has done twice before rather than just setting up a lawn chair and going to sleep while Shepard waits. Basically, try to kill Shepard itself, even if his/her death is ultimately irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things (this is an action done by many military and political leaders throughout world history).

The reason why he wouldn't would be because he truly believes what he did was necessary and that he is a shackled AI, as evidence of his lack of pulling off making or doing a new option after the Reapers. His goal is to preserve life, but this was the best way he knew how. If Shepard were to believe it is lying and disregard the possibility of it being truthful, then that is extremely closed-minded; if Shepard automatically believes it is 100% truthful (doesn't have a single doubt about electrocuting/disintegrating her/himself being what triggers the effects) then s/he is extremely naive. The doubts on both sides are logical.

[N7Keller]

Not really a middle-finger. They added it because people complained about the fact that there was no convectional victory. It's Bioware's way of saying conventional victory is not possible. And there right for saying that. The galaxy was not ready. Had they took the events that happened in ME1 seriously , then it might have been possible. They didn't. It's the hole plot of ME2. The Illusive man is the only one who sees the threat. Sure he wants to exploit it. but at least he understands

[Galbrant]

The player has no reason Shepard would do nothing when he/she chooses refuse.  We just reject the catalyst ultimatium it does not however mean we wouldn't use the crucible. Although it is arguebly better to do nothing because we don't know if the catalyst is telling the truth or trying to sabotage the battle outside. His honesty  was made into question when he reveals that he controls the Reapers. His explanations on these choices are poorly explain with faulty logic and are back up with no evidence and two of them requires Shepard death to use.  
Why start trusting the Reapers now? After all the death and chaos they cause for eons through manipulating and the haverst.... the only time we seen them attempt to bargain with us is in the last ten minutes of the game.  If I'm going to do what he says I'm certainly going to need more than just his word to hang on.

 I never wanted a refusal ending where the player outright lose. Well I would want them both one with victory either well anything is better than the three we got. From Harbringer being the central Reaper Intelligence or killing the Catalyst on the citadel from attacks from the Victory Fleet, Even a Engineer Shepard modifying the Crucible to send EMP burst that targets Reaper tech giving the edge the cycle needs to take out the Reapers.  All those are certainly much easier to digest than Control and Synthesis... especially Synthesis.

[His Name was HYR!!]

InvincibleHero wrote...

They gave people what they wanted that demanded not my Shepard I would refuse its choices. Too bad the catalyst spoke truth only Shepard could intiate the choices and reverted to reap em baby default mode. So refusing makes Shepard the galactic chump only no one knows about it.

[SpamBot2000]

I disagree. I think it's a very small, petty middle finger.

Still the best ending choice though.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:50 .

[clennon8]

It did feel like there was a bit of an eff-you quality to it. Like they were annoyed by all those videos of people repeatedly shooting CatKid in the face.

[Eclipse merc]

dreamgazer wrote...

I honestly don't. Fans wanted it, and they got a speech that easily bests the prep speech at the firebase.

Then everyone dies. Everytime, no matter what.

[Iakus]

Eclipse merc wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I honestly don't. Fans wanted it, and they got a speech that easily bests the prep speech at the firebase.

Then everyone dies. Everytime, no matter what.

Yeah pretty sure that's not what everyone wanted

[StoneSwords]

iakus wrote...

Eclipse merc wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I honestly don't. Fans wanted it, and they got a speech that easily bests the prep speech at the firebase.

Then everyone dies. Everytime, no matter what.

Yeah pretty sure that's not what everyone wanted

I'm pretty sure as we were all hearing that speech for the first time, we got all excited, thinking Shepard was about to pull off some bada** sh*t, and then.... "SO BE IT", stand there looking retarded for 3 seconds, then fade to black.  I don't think that's what anyone was asking for

[AlanC9]

_aLucidMind_ wrote...

If Shepard percieves the Reapers as pure evil, having no real reason for what they do and sees what they do as nothing more than brainwashing and murder then why would a Shepard so set on that opinion of the Reapers, and their creator by extension, actually trust the creator?

The standard response to this argument -- I'm sure you've heard it -- is that trust isn't relevant. Trust the Catalyst, don't trust it.... you still don't have any viable options besides using the Crucible.

[Liamv2]

People complain about lack of refusal
refusal ending added
people complain about refusal ending

[AlanC9]

StoneSwords wrote...

I'm pretty sure as we were all hearing that speech for the first time, we got all excited, thinking Shepard was about to pull off some bada** sh*t, and then.... "SO BE IT", stand there looking retarded for 3 seconds, then fade to black.  I don't think that's what anyone was asking for

Were "we"really expecting a win?

Actually, I can't say, since I'd already played before the EC came out, and I knew there wasn't going to be any change from Bio statements. My best guess is that if I had played the game with the EC first, I'd have been dreading a Refuse win, and pleasantly surprised when the Reapers won instead.

[StoneSwords]

AlanC9 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

I'm pretty sure as we were all hearing that speech for the first time, we got all excited, thinking Shepard was about to pull off some bada** sh*t, and then.... "SO BE IT", stand there looking retarded for 3 seconds, then fade to black.  I don't think that's what anyone was asking for

Were "we"really expecting a win?

Actually, I can't say, since I'd already played before the EC came out, and I knew there wasn't going to be any change from Bio statements. My best guess is that if I had played the game with the EC first, I'd have been dreading a Refuse win, and pleasantly surprised when the Reapers won instead.

Well, I didn't say it had to be a win, but certainly extended scenes showing our squad falling one by one, or our war assets in action against the Reapers would have gone a long way towards making refusal seem more complete I guess.  I would love it if it came with a win too, tho, I won't lie lol

[Outsider edge]

StoneSwords wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

I'm pretty sure as we were all hearing that speech for the first time, we got all excited, thinking Shepard was about to pull off some bada** sh*t, and then.... "SO BE IT", stand there looking retarded for 3 seconds, then fade to black.  I don't think that's what anyone was asking for

Were "we"really expecting a win?

Actually, I can't say, since I'd already played before the EC came out, and I knew there wasn't going to be any change from Bio statements. My best guess is that if I had played the game with the EC first, I'd have been dreading a Refuse win, and pleasantly surprised when the Reapers won instead.

Well, I didn't say it had to be a win, but certainly extended scenes showing our squad falling one by one, or our war assets in action against the Reapers would have gone a long way towards making refusal seem more complete I guess.  I would love it if it came with a win too, tho, I won't lie lol

If a full refuse option/conventional victory was indeed possible chances are it would have been BY FAR the most popular ending. So much so it would render the Crucible's choices too sideshows. Ofcourse there would not be a full refuse ending it would have been far too risky. Had they done it then EA/Bioware ran the risk of being exposed too the tripe they originally tried too sell with the vanilla endings.

A comparison is a fruit vendor who has three overripe apples too sell. Eventhough the quality might be subpar customers will choose one of the three if they want fruit but don't have an alternative even if in fact they want an orange. Now imagine that the vendor adds a fresh orange too the other three options. It's obvious which one will be the most attractive of the options available.

A refuse/conventional victory option was the most popular on this board and likely outside it. If Bioware had added a full option into the game with an epilogue and such it would have called them out on the lack of quality presented in the original endings. This is something that was never gonna happen. So it's not a middlefinger it's just inevitable they went with the "so be it" response.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:51 .

[in it for the lolz]

Which is way (back when I used to play ME 3) I picked Red. That’s my middle finger to Starkid.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Without restating the silliness of no conventional victory (As in, it removes all the tension of ME1 and ME2), bioware throws together the money to actually add new ending material and makes it a glorified game over. It's really hard to not be insulted like that. Fallout 3's broken steel didn't add an ending where the purifier just blew up and nuked the washington area, now did it?

[Kataphrut94]

Of course it's a middle finger. That's what makes it so funny.

As for the scene itself, I laugh when I hear people try to justify how that could have gone better. "Oh, Shepard will just do a heroic speech that inspires everyone to win" is a common one. Yes, because apparently all the soldiers and starfighters in Sol were just half-assing it until they hear a few words of encouragement from the galaxy's biggest show-pony that suddenly inspires them to knuckle down, grit those teeth and fight like real men! I'm sure all those engineers and ships brought in to deploy the Crucible are going to be pumped now that they realise all their hard work and planning was a big waste of time.

If you have Refuse available, that means you have the Extended Cut. If you have the Extended Cut, the endings don't suck anymore and you can be perfectly justified in picking one of 3 perfectly valid options for giving the galactic cycle a nice hard flogging. There's no need to worry about it.

[AlanC9]

StoneSwords wrote...


Well, I didn't say it had to be a win, but certainly extended scenes showing our squad falling one by one, or our war assets in action against the Reapers would have gone a long way towards making refusal seem more complete I guess.  I would love it if it came with a win too, tho, I won't lie lol

Oh, yeah, watching the extermination of the Citadel races, your squadmates, and the Normandy would have been great. Wing Commander 3 had an excellent fail ending in a similar vein. Especially since you've got two losing path missions where you're facing inevitable defeat.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:04 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

AlanC9 wrote...

Oh, yeah, watching the extermination of the Citadel races, your squadmates, and the Normandy would have been great. Wing Commander 3 had an excellent fail ending in a similar vein. Especially since you've got two losing path missions where you're facing inevitable defeat.

My personal favorite fail ending would be the fail DLC, the darkspawn chronicles of DA:O. It's a fail ending for the heroes with you playing as the villains, and it is glorious.

[Outsider edge]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Of course it's a middle finger. That's what makes it so funny.

As for the scene itself, I laugh when I hear people try to justify how that could have gone better. "Oh, Shepard will just do a heroic speech that inspires everyone to win" is a common one. Yes, because apparently all the soldiers and starfighters in Sol were just half-assing it until they hear a few words of encouragement from the galaxy's biggest show-pony that suddenly inspires them to knuckle down, grit those teeth and fight like real men! I'm sure all those engineers and ships brought in to deploy the Crucible are going to be pumped now that they realise all their hard work and planning was a big waste of time.

If you have Refuse available, that means you have the Extended Cut. If you have the Extended Cut, the endings don't suck anymore and you can be perfectly justified in picking one of 3 perfectly valid options for giving the galactic cycle a nice hard flogging. There's no need to worry about it.

Semantics. The extended cut only cleans up the original endings. If you have issues with it's actual content it doesn't change a thing. Synthesis will still be absurd hippy nonsense, destroy will still show Shepard running into an exploding device. The Catalyst just circlejerks more etc etc.

So yes even with the extended cut i'm not surprised scores of people still hate the endings with a passion.

Sure the extended cut improved the endings i'm not debating that considering that wasn't really hard too do with the state of the vanilla endings. But did it fix the narrative of the endings? Not really it just clears up most of the headcannon that had spawned eventhough that headcannon was more in line with what the writers actually wanted (galactic wasteland anyone?...).

Modifié par Outsider edge, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:18 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Just my two cents, but I don't think it was a middle finger. That is exactly what happens when you don't use the one and only chance to win. And given that BW was not going to alter the ending drastically in the EC, I'm not sure why people were expecting a refusal victory? I certainly didn't.

Also, someone mentioned this, the last achievement doesn't unlock on picking refusal. In that light, refusal is indeed a glorified game over screen more than anything.