210 réponses à ce sujet

[Daniel_N7]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Of course it's a middle finger. That's what makes it so funny.

As for the scene itself, I laugh when I hear people try to justify how that could have gone better. "Oh, Shepard will just do a heroic speech that inspires everyone to win" is a common one. Yes, because apparently all the soldiers and starfighters in Sol were just half-assing it until they hear a few words of encouragement from the galaxy's biggest show-pony that suddenly inspires them to knuckle down, grit those teeth and fight like real men! I'm sure all those engineers and ships brought in to deploy the Crucible are going to be pumped now that they realise all their hard work and planning was a big waste of time.

If you have Refuse available, that means you have the Extended Cut. If you have the Extended Cut, the endings don't suck anymore and you can be perfectly justified in picking one of 3 perfectly valid options for giving the galactic cycle a nice hard flogging. There's no need to worry about it.

"If you have the Extended Cut, the endings don't suck anymore"... Oh, the endings don't suck anymore. I'm so happy now. Because in the original endings it felt like someone ripped my heart out from my chest. But now they "don't suck" anymore. And I'm supposed to be pleased with that and embrace my favorite sci-fi series with such lowered expectations.

Not "sucking" isn't good enough, it's unworthy of this universe and characters. It's still a big failure.

You laugh because people complain about the refusal ending? The ending where Shepard actually talks like Shepard and makes one of the best speeches of the trilogy?

«I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone’s. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I’ll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I’ll die free.»

And then Shepard just stands there, paralyzed, un-Shepard-like, because BioWare says so, because you're supposed to accept the force-feeding fact that "the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally". Something you didn't actually "know" from Mass Effect 1 and 2, something you are now forced to believe and told so, over and over, because you must accept it in order to the Mass Effect 3 Crucible plot to make sense?

Are you kidding me?

I refuse to engage Mass Effect with such low standards. I want more. I'll fight for it, and if I loose, I'll loose knowing that I fought till the end.

Shepard taught me that. kapow!

Modifié par Daniel_N7, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:29 .

[Dysjong]

Refuse is a good ending.

1: that speech is one of the best in the trilogy.

2: it shows that it is possible to fail, which i am a big fan of.

I myself would not Refuse, i won't call it bad or a big middle finger.

[M Hedonist]

This again? Really?
And I actually thought 6 months ago that, eventually, people would come to accept each other's choices. That it was just because the wounds were still fresh and everyone was a bit disappointed. Silly me - people still constantly refer to endings they don't like as 'insulting' or 'not fitting for Shepard/the Mass Effect series', or even in some cases just 'disgusting', etc.. The only thing I feel insulted by are threads like these.

Modifié par Sauruz, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:52 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Dysjong wrote...

Refuse is a good ending.

1: that speech is one of the best in the trilogy.

2: it shows that it is possible to fail, which i am a big fan of.

I myself would not Refuse, i won't call it bad or a big middle finger.

I agree with that.

[Phategod1]

 I kind of agree that it a middle finger, but I really think it's a middle finger that a lot of fans genuinely deserve.

[Daniel_N7]

Should I apologize for being saddened by this game's conclusion. Should I apologize for caring for this series? For owning Mass Effect 1, ME1 DLC's, Mass Effect 2, ME2 DLC's, including all weapon and alternate appearance packs, Mass Effect 3, and compulsively still buying its DLC's even though I'm not even playing them.

A lot of fans deserve a middle finger, you say? I'm sure there's a lot of resentment towards "a lot of fans" from BioWare's lead execs. What, we ruined their year? We got in the way of their stroll down the red carpet to the GOTYs?

[Dysjong]

Daniel_n7

No one deserves that kind of treatment, i will give you that, but when it comes to rpg, there has to be a chance for failure.

This last weekend i lost a char in a wheel of time table-top rpg group. Why? Because of a critical hit. My friend who played my chars twin got killed one hour later. Why? He pissed off a NPC that threw a fireball at him. To make it worse, he was a warder for our aes sedai.
The funny thing was that the NPC was there to offer some help and plothooks but because my friend, did as he did under the circumstantions of mistrust towards the NPC and the group he represented, my friend paid the price for it.

So if you think that refuse a big middle finger, then you haven't played table-top rpg, invested hours, days and months, only to lose it because something happende.

Many RPG have lost that element of fear i feel.

[crimzontearz]

Dysjong wrote...

Daniel_n7

No one deserves that kind of treatment, i will give you that, but when it comes to rpg, there has to be a chance for failure.

This last weekend i lost a char in a wheel of time table-top rpg group. Why? Because of a critical hit. My friend who played my chars twin got killed one hour later. Why? He pissed off a NPC that threw a fireball at him. To make it worse, he was a warder for our aes sedai.
The funny thing was that the NPC was there to offer some help and plothooks but because my friend, did as he did under the circumstantions of mistrust towards the NPC and the group he represented, my friend paid the price for it.

So if you think that refuse a big middle finger, then you haven't played table-top rpg, invested hours, days and months, only to lose it because something happende.

Many RPG have lost that element of fear i feel.

I have ZERO problem with the possibility of failure in RPGs. As I said one of the best RPGs I played was vampire : the masquerade - redemption and one of the 3 ending was flat out failure, actually a fate WORSE than death


 
But I had also the possibility to succeed. Not just succeed but satisfyingly succeed in either the high humanity or low humanity path. Where is that in ME3. If failure is to be an option then so must be success


 
Now tell me, how would you react if your GM/DM/ST would tell you "oh and I am not gonna tell you if your character survives" had the end of a 5 years long campaign?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

You're only noticing it now?

[Dysjong]

Crimzontearz

In my eyes, refuse is a failure while the 3 other endings are a succes, different but none the less succes.

And about that with gm question, i have already tried that before, with a paladin. I didnt knew what happende to him after the divine group ended. Few years later he came to me and told me what happende. While i didnt agree with all the DM told me, i stil accepted the few parts i didn't like and i was satisfying with the rest.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

what did u expect op? Fans gave middlefinger so the devs did the same. Its all equal now

[crimzontearz]

Dysjong wrote...

Crimzontearz

In my eyes, refuse is a failure while the 3 other endings are a succes, different but none the less succes.

And about that with gm question, i have already tried that before, with a paladin. I didnt knew what happende to him after the divine group ended. Few years later he came to me and told me what happende. While i didnt agree with all the DM told me, i stil accepted the few parts i didn't like and i was satisfying with the rest.

I am sorry id I did that to my troupe I would hope and expect they would ask me never to host again


 
As for success, you are right, but to me, one of the people who pick destroy, thru went out of their way to make my success less impactful mainly because they did not want more imbalance...and I find that despicable especially since they said they would not change the endings yet they DID add refuse

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

Now tell me, how would you react if your GM/DM/ST would tell you "oh and I am not gonna tell you if your character survives" had the end of a 5 years long campaign?

There's a pretty significant difference between a narrative writer and a DM.

[Dysjong]

Crimzontearz

Would rather have it that you't couldn't say no to the catalyst, that you are forced to pick one of three choices then?

Me and some friends who completede the whole trilogy was in shock when we found about the refuse. But we all agreed that it was a nice touch.

Well, i actually like destroy ending. I just took synthesis.

[crimzontearz]

Dysjong wrote...

Crimzontearz

Would rather have it that you't couldn't say no to the catalyst, that you are forced to pick one of three choices then?

Me and some friends who completede the whole trilogy was in shock when we found about the refuse. But we all agreed that it was a nice touch.

Well, i actually like destroy ending. I just took synthesis.

I would not, to be fair all I want is the same amount of closure afforded to others

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Now tell me, how would you react if your GM/DM/ST would tell you "oh and I am not gonna tell you if your character survives" had the end of a 5 years long campaign?

There's a pretty significant difference between a narrative writer and a DM.

not in this particular frangent, no

[Samtheman63]

fans cried and said there should be an ending where you could refuse to even use the crucible, they got it, didn't like the outcome and cried even more

am i right?

[The Night Mammoth]

Samtheman63 wrote...

fans cried and said there should be an ending where you could refuse to even use the crucible, they got it, didn't like the outcome and cried even more

am i right?

No, unsurprisingly.

[Samtheman63]

what part is wrong?

[zyntifox]

I don't mind them having the refusal ending, in fact it is my main paragon Shepards preferred ending (obviously without meta-gaming) . I don't even mind that you will always loose in that particular ending. What i do mind is that Bioware clearly have not given it the same treatment as the other three endings in terms of content. If you want to add a new ending where the galaxy falls to the reapers then at least show it go down fighting.

Modifié par Cstaf, 10 janvier 2013 - 03:00 .

[crimzontearz]

Cstaf wrote...

I don't mind them having the refusal ending, in fact it is my main paragon Shepards preferred ending (obviously without meta-gaming) . I don't even mind that you will always loose in that particular ending. What i do mind is that Bioware clearly have not given it the same treatment as the other three endings in terms of content. If you want to add a new ending where the galaxy falls to the reapers then at least show it go down fighting.

dude


 
It

Is

NOT

An ending...

[moater boat]

What people seem to forget is that refuse, and everything else from the EC wasn't included to make the game better, or even to please fans. Though it may have had those effects to some extent, the main purpose of releasing it was for Bioware to cover their asses, so that someone looking at the situation from the outside, or someone who just isn't too concerned with the situation, will see a company that releases a FREE DLC to try and please their fans. The EC addresses some of the issues raised by fans in a point-by-point way that gives the appearance of trying to set things right, so that anyone who hasn't played through the entire series multiple times will look at the original complaints, and look at what the EC "fixed" and assume (wrongly of course) that the EC fixed the ending. Thereby absolving Bioware of any blame, and making unhappy fans look spoiled and fanatical.

It doesn't matter that refuse is just a big middle finger, because it isn't there for the fans, it is there so Bioware can tell the video game industry "look how we bend over backwards for customers". It was a PR masterstroke by Bioware that divided the opposition, and pulled the rug out from underneath them, while simultaneously giving the false impression that they actually cared and wanted to make a good ending.

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

I don't mind them having the refusal ending, in fact it is my main paragon Shepards preferred ending (obviously without meta-gaming) . I don't even mind that you will always loose in that particular ending. What i do mind is that Bioware clearly have not given it the same treatment as the other three endings in terms of content. If you want to add a new ending where the galaxy falls to the reapers then at least show it go down fighting.

dude


 
It

Is

NOT

An ending...

What's the definition of an ending? Because when you think about it, refuse offers the most finality: everyone dies, and someone else does the job for Shepard later on. 

[Dunabar]

This is why I select destroy ending 85% of the time.

Even if I prove star child correct, I still get to rest knowing I brought down the machines. I give him the middle finger laughing while his synthetic buds are all like "Uh oh, indoctrination failed..probability of being screwed has reached critical levels"

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

I don't mind them having the refusal ending, in fact it is my main paragon Shepards preferred ending (obviously without meta-gaming) . I don't even mind that you will always loose in that particular ending. What i do mind is that Bioware clearly have not given it the same treatment as the other three endings in terms of content. If you want to add a new ending where the galaxy falls to the reapers then at least show it go down fighting.

dude


 
It

Is

NOT

An ending...

What's the definition of an ending? Because when you think about it, refuse offers the most finality: everyone dies, and someone else does the job for Shepard later on. 

conceptually you are right


 
But in THIS feangent we have a clear cut line in a form of an achievement triggered by successfully completing the game. Refuse does not trigger the achievement, thus, de facto, it is not an ending