300 réponses à ce sujet

[LemurFromTheId]

Deerber wrote...

One little thing about the last example you provided: I think the real sinergy would be if together you could dish out 6200 damage in less than 2.5 seconds. Doing that in 2.5 seconds would be pretty much the same as doing that both by yourselves. It would be amazing if you could do better than is you both were by yourselves. Am I being clear?

That is, in fact, the very definition of synergy: that elements combined together are more than the simple sum of the individual elements.

However, in this game you often have to choose your class, your power evolutions, your loadout, your ammo and your playstyle very carefully just to make sure you're not stepping on anyone's toes. That's the opposite of synergy.

[TheThirdRace]

Deerber wrote...

I think you summed things pretty well. I completely agree on what you said.

One little thing about the last example you provided: I think the real sinergy would be if together you could dish out 6200 damage in less than 2.5 seconds. Doing that in 2.5 seconds would be pretty much the same as doing that both by yourselves. It would be amazing if you could do better than is you both were by yourselves. Am I being clear?

It would be awesome if, say, there were certain power evolutions (hopefully a good lot of them) that boosted the effectiveness of the whole team. Right now, the only things that do that are debuffs. But it's not that they really boost the team's effectiveness, they rather make the enemies take more damage. One could argue that they're the same things, but what I'd really love to see are power evolutions which give, say, "+15% recharge speed to all biotic powers of teammates in 5 m". Stuff like that. A lot of those evolutions. That would change things.


Think about it: in the end, almost every power evolution in this game only does something for the power/player himself. Not for teammates. What the next ME effort needs are all those wonderful team-wide evolutions from SP (miranda in ME2, anyone? Liara in ME3? Stuff like that) added to multiplayer as well. That's what we need. That's what I call teamplay. 

I agree with your take too.

I think though that damage shouldn't be better than if we were both doing damage by ourselves. Playing as a team means you dispatch the same enemy faster, like focus fire, meaning it's easier to control spawn, easier to control your flanks, the enemies dies faster and thus hit you less, you die much less and it's overall easier for everyone. You already gain a huge advantage by playing as a team, you don't need extra damage from your combos.

But your idea about evolutions that gives bonus to your teammates are spot on. This doesn't change your base output damage, but it does help the team in a sensible way.

[Tybo]

Cyonan wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Reave is a biotic power. It's supposed to prime everything. And BEs do little damage to shields/health.

Snap freeze is a tech power. The closest power in the game can only prime health. Other tech powers can prime everything but tech bursts do pitiful damage vs armor and health and you can't trigger fire explosions vs shields/barriers. But snap freeze + chain overload annihilates everything.

Two very different things.

Going for damage numbers eh? I do love my numbers.

Biotic Explosion Base Damage: 100-250. Does 2x damage to barriers and armour, and 1x to shields/health.

Cryo Explosion Base Damage: 75-200. Does 1x to everything.

Snap Freeze appears to annihilate everything because you're doing 3 Cryo Explosions at 200% damage, not because Cryo Explosions actually have any semblance of being overpowered.

If Reave had a 100% increased BE bug or evo, it would be doing the same thing.

Cryo Explosions got buffed to 100-250 as well.  With 2 rank 6 powers on gold and the built in double damage, this does 1687.5 damage per explosion.

In addition, unlike all biotic powers (except cluster grenades), overload hits like a truck to shields and barriers, which it will be hitting most of the time.  In addition, unlike biotic exploders, overload can actually consistently set off multiple explosions.

To say it appears to annihilate everything is a bit facetious.  It does annihilate everything, and whether that is because of 3 explosions or 1 super powerful one doesn't make a huge difference.

Even if Reave had a 100% increased BE bug, it would not do the same because you can't do multiple BEs like you can do multiple FE/CE/TB

Modifié par tyhw, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:11 .

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...
Cryo Explosions got buffed to 100-250 as well. With 2 rank 6 powers on gold and the built in double damage, this does 1687.5 damage per explosion.

In addition, unlike all biotic powers (except cluster grenades), overload hits like a truck to shields and barriers, which it will be hitting most of the time. In addition, unlike biotic exploders, overload can actually consistently set off multiple explosions.

To say it appears to annihilate everything is a bit facetious. It does annihilate everything, and whether that is because of 3 explosions or 1 super powerful one doesn't make a huge difference.

In sum, even if Reave had a 100% increased BE bug, it would not do the same because you can't do multiple BEs like you can do multiple FE/CE/TB

Ah, I missed the additional buff. Point still stands about base damage though.

Nova is often considered the best detonator in the game and it detonates multiple BEs. You can spam it so quickly that it hardly matters if one doesn't trigger all 3. Thanks to Pierce it actually does pretty damn good damage to shields and especially barriers too. There is also the Cluster Grenades you mention.

Saying that it woouldn't do what SF is currently doing is ignoring what the Drell Adept can already do with Area Reave -> Cluster Grenade =P

Modifié par Cyonan, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:18 .

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

If Reave had a 100% increased BE bug or evo, it would be doing the same thing.

I can't argue with that "logic".

Besides, as loonyspectre said, basically every single power can detonate Snap Freeze. Even most biotic powers will do the trick.

[FlowCytometry]

HolyAvenger wrote...

The main problem is DPS trumps all. Lets make CC, survivability etc. more important...


...no medigelling.

interesting, and I kinda agree w/ this and the OP.

The grenade system w/ ammo crates is the same way. Wish it were better designed.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 10 janvier 2013 - 10:21 .

[HolyAvenger]

The problem with ONLY positive synergy and no negative synergy is that, in my opinion, its not enough of a carrot to make people change their kit or adjust their playstyle to suit their teammates.

On the other hand, if you employ the carrot and the stick (i.e. using disruptor ammo on a biotically primed target does LESS damage), then I think you'd see people start being a lot more considerate and employ better synergy.





....and no medigels.

[Tybo]

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...
Cryo Explosions got buffed to 100-250 as well. With 2 rank 6 powers on gold and the built in double damage, this does 1687.5 damage per explosion.

In addition, unlike all biotic powers (except cluster grenades), overload hits like a truck to shields and barriers, which it will be hitting most of the time. In addition, unlike biotic exploders, overload can actually consistently set off multiple explosions.

To say it appears to annihilate everything is a bit facetious. It does annihilate everything, and whether that is because of 3 explosions or 1 super powerful one doesn't make a huge difference.

In sum, even if Reave had a 100% increased BE bug, it would not do the same because you can't do multiple BEs like you can do multiple FE/CE/TB

Ah, I missed the additional buff. Point still stands about base damage though.

Nova is often considered the best detonator in the game and it detonates multiple BEs. You can spam it so quickly that it hardly matters if one doesn't trigger all 3. Thanks to Pierce it actually does pretty damn good damage to shields and especially barriers too. There is also the Cluster Grenades you mention.

Saying that it woouldn't do what SF is currently doing is ignoring what the Drell Adept can already do with Area Reave -> Cluster Grenade =P

I can't argue against cluster grenades, they are clearly a match for SF>overload.  But that's more because cluster grenades are awesome than because you do multiple detonations (fairly uncommon in practice)However, I would definitely call Nova an inferior detonator to overload.  You can only detonate 1 per nova.  You can do them fairly quickly, but not as fast as chain overload.  And against shields/barriers (which you will usually be hitting), nova does less damage.  It can only hit as many targets as overload too, though it does do more damage to the secondary targets, it will do less overall with an aoe primer due to less explosions.

[Iclonic]

JLoco11 wrote...

There is a difference with playing with randoms and playing as a team with people you know. Playing with randoms, you get a group that has no synergy.

However, if you play with a group of friends who understand teamwork, then you get a solid team. When I team up, we decide in lobby if we're going biotic, tech, melee etc. We don't have 3 biotics and 1 person with energy drain. We don't have 2 snipers and then 2 melee krogans, things like that don't work.

The exact reasons of why randoms fail, is why co-op is also successful. If you don't strive to work as a team, it becomes harder. When your team works at synergy, then you reap the benefits.

^ THIS.

[Deerber]

tyhw wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...
Cryo Explosions got buffed to 100-250 as well. With 2 rank 6 powers on gold and the built in double damage, this does 1687.5 damage per explosion.

In addition, unlike all biotic powers (except cluster grenades), overload hits like a truck to shields and barriers, which it will be hitting most of the time. In addition, unlike biotic exploders, overload can actually consistently set off multiple explosions.

To say it appears to annihilate everything is a bit facetious. It does annihilate everything, and whether that is because of 3 explosions or 1 super powerful one doesn't make a huge difference.

In sum, even if Reave had a 100% increased BE bug, it would not do the same because you can't do multiple BEs like you can do multiple FE/CE/TB

Ah, I missed the additional buff. Point still stands about base damage though.

Nova is often considered the best detonator in the game and it detonates multiple BEs. You can spam it so quickly that it hardly matters if one doesn't trigger all 3. Thanks to Pierce it actually does pretty damn good damage to shields and especially barriers too. There is also the Cluster Grenades you mention.

Saying that it woouldn't do what SF is currently doing is ignoring what the Drell Adept can already do with Area Reave -> Cluster Grenade =P

I can't argue against cluster grenades, they are clearly a match for SF>overload.  But that's more because cluster grenades are awesome than because you do multiple detonations (fairly uncommon in practice)However, I would definitely call Nova an inferior detonator to overload.  You can only detonate 1 per nova.  You can do them fairly quickly, but not as fast as chain overload.  And against shields/barriers (which you will usually be hitting), nova does less damage.  It can only hit as many targets as overload too, though it does do more damage to the secondary targets, it will do less overall with an aoe primer due to less explosions.

Let's also not forget the fact that it's pretty hard to set off multiple BEs with clusters, as if the first shrapnel hits more than one target the other shrapnel won't detonate.

On tho other side, chain overload always detonates up to 3 CEs. That's a huge difference.

[bunnylover]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

A lot of your complaints sound like, "Other players mess up me killing things, and I don't like that." You have classes that are built better to be by themselves, it's not inherent to those classes. You choose to run a Javelin when there are Shockwave classes in the lobby. That's a team choosing not to synergize well. At the end of the day, people choose how much or little cooperation they want in a match.

This thread should have ended here on page 2.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

If Reave had a 100% increased BE bug or evo, it would be doing the same thing.

I can't argue with that "logic".

Besides, as loonyspectre said, basically every single power can detonate Snap Freeze. Even most biotic powers will do the trick.

The only non biotic AoE detonate that gets mentioned is Overload, which I can probably blame Overload almost as much as I can blame Snap Freeze, honestly with the really screwed up modifiers it gets from evolutions.

tyhw wrote...

I can't argue against cluster grenades, they are clearly a match for SF>overload.  But that's more because cluster grenades are awesome than because you do multiple detonations (fairly uncommon in practice)However, I would definitely call Nova an inferior detonator to overload.  You can only detonate 1 per nova.  You can do them fairly quickly, but not as fast as chain overload.  And against shields/barriers (which you will usually be hitting), nova does less damage.  It can only hit as many targets as overload too, though it does do more damage to the secondary targets, it will do less overall with an aoe primer due to less explosions.

1 Nova Half-Blast will do 2835 damage to barriers with consumables or 1890 to shields which is hardly a small number. The damage also does not drop across each target like Chain Overload does, even though it will hit the first target harder(due in part to some odd multiplier mechanics).

It also does something that resembles damage against armour and health, which again is not a negligible thing.

Even at 1 per cast I can still get 3 off within the duration of a single GCD due to 2x Nova + Biotic Charge.

I also did a quick test but I should probably double check with you: Incinerate and Inferno Grenades can prime shielded targets for FEs, yes? I'm noticing the sound/visual, but I didn't have the memory reader running so I didn't check for damage all that accurately.

[LemurFromTheId]

I find it interesting that while in ME2 and especially in ME1 you generally wanted to have a balanced squad that had both tech and biotic capabilities, in ME3 synergy seems to require a team that's either all biotic or all tech.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to have a team where the members complement each other?

Unfortunately that's not how the game works. Hopefully the next one will be different.

[Beeno4Life]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

I'm fine with unique abilities. But snap freeze :

- Goes through walls
- Cannot be dodged
- Affects multiple enemies
- Does damage
- Primes absolutely everything
- Does double damage when detonated
- Freezes phantoms

Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

Arctican wrote...

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

If it could prime health and armor, no.

If it could primes shields and barriers as well, yes. Incendiary ammo can't do that.

You seem to be missing one little tidbit; Cryo Blast is considered one of the worst--if not THE worst--powers in the game for the very reason that it does absolutely nothing that SF does, beside making mooksicles.

[LemurFromTheId]

Beeno4Life wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

I'm fine with unique abilities. But snap freeze :

- Goes through walls
- Cannot be dodged
- Affects multiple enemies
- Does damage
- Primes absolutely everything
- Does double damage when detonated
- Freezes phantoms

Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

Arctican wrote...

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

If it could prime health and armor, no.

If it could primes shields and barriers as well, yes. Incendiary ammo can't do that.

You seem to be missing one little tidbit; Cryo Blast is considered one of the worst--if not THE worst--powers in the game for the very reason that it does absolutely nothing that SF does, beside making mooksicles.

Considered by whom? There are a lot of people - like me - that consider it a perfectly solid power, even excellent depending on the other powers available to the kit in question.

This has been discussed recently.

[2Shepards]

Harting-EN wrote...

Sorry cory, but a good biotic team will kill everything out of spawn. We often make gold in 14-16 minutes, just with biotics... nvm. In my oppinion there is nothing more effective on me3 mp than a synergetic playing biotic squad.

QFT

However if I notice that other powers and abilities are screwing with mine I spread out a tad.

[Deerber]

Aedolon wrote...

Beeno4Life wrote...

You seem to be missing one little tidbit; Cryo Blast is considered one of the worst--if not THE worst--powers in the game for the very reason that it does absolutely nothing that SF does, beside making mooksicles.

Considered by whom? There are a lot of people - like me - that consider it a perfectly solid power, even excellent depending on the other powers available to the kit in question.

This has been discussed recently.

Thanks for saving me the hassle of finding the thread. Cryo blast is a debuff. Snap freeze is not.

[Xeraphas]

If there were more support powers and points distributed for co op attacks that could work.

If BE's for example stacked with all 4 players pitching in with a power or bonus ammo attack and you all get beneficial points from a expertly executed full team power combo attacks, then teamwork could work alot better. There are other games that can and do have such things so it is not only possible it already exists. This co op biotic power attack with points distributed for all who contributed to the combo attack that would stack for each player pitching in so up to 4 times would be a great fun way to play the game and really add depth and a good motivation for teamwork.

Also for example, there are relatively few powers that have a team benefit or effect such as the supply pylon and shield boost.

I also wonder why combat powers are not really expressed here in bonus gear or in challenges.

Modifié par Xeraphas, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:29 .

[Untonic]

HolyAvenger wrote...

The main problem is DPS trumps all. Lets make CC, survivability etc. more important...


...no medigelling.

This completely, people go all-out COD on this... really annoying.

[LDStaredown]

Madhouse46 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

- My Claymore Batarian Adept can't play with other biotics. Warp + Claymore with Warp Ammo IV + Cluster Nades = Dead Brute. However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus and the Brute will survive because the biotic explosion does pathetic damage compared to my Claymore.

- Try detonating a BE vs armor when someone is using disruptor ammo. Unless you have cluster grenades, it's impossible and you end up doing less damage because of it. Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

- Vorchas/Melee Krogans have to stay away from others because it's the only way they can reliably get kills to fuel their bloodlust/rage.

- You can't ever stay near a flamer spammer because yon won't be able to see a goddamn thing.

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

Inbeforlearntoplay

1) what difficulty are you playing what setups are your team using?

2) and why can't a MQE blow **** up next to a destroyer with missles ? I can't see what would stop you, other than your own stupidity, prime ****, deal dmg, deal combined dmg as a team , watch the fireworks.

3) screen shaking powers? what screen shaking, I have yet to see a power than shakes the screen, shockwave does not shack the screen it sends stuff flying not preventing you from aiming but moving the distance between you and a target.

4) why are you playing an adept with a heavy shotgun .... more fail their than a blind man playing football. secondly BE combos are great for team work same as tech explosion you have 4 geth, i prime them with cyro spray on my n7 sentinel, someone uses tech grandes or flamer or i use my energy drain i set off a tech explosion doing **** loads of dmg because the dmg is based off the lvl of the two powers, both would be at max lvls respecivly. 

5) im 75% sure tech combos and biotic combos do not proc each other. and secondly wbwhy would you use a shield/barrier power on armour ....

6)actually know they don't as meleeing does far more dmg than shooting unless theres a shotgun/sniper person about. so yea your doing it wrong

7) What are you about not seeing a whole thing??? what are you doing rapping the guy up the ass , so you feel his breathing .... no but seriously that's just plain silly, i can see fine when someone is using flame. just move to a point where you can see better if you can't.

8) Actually no you are not better off on your own three reason's for this, 1) being the difficulty if everyone spreads out on platinum your likely to **** up the spawns and make it harder. 2) the teams setup and playstyles. 3) the wave your on. using team work for the pizza carry on higher difficults is a must. or being a distraction so the delivery can happen without interuption helps too.

9) some of my fastest runs on platinum have been without any inflitrators. we ran a turian havoc sentinel, a n7 sentinel, a volue adept + a geth solider. finish a platinum run in 20 mins by sticking togethor as a team.

[Deerber]

LDStaredown wrote...

Ooooh I haven't seen that in soooo long! 

[nicethugbert]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

- My Claymore Batarian Adept can't play with other biotics. Warp + Claymore with Warp Ammo IV + Cluster Nades = Dead Brute. However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus and the Brute will survive because the biotic explosion does pathetic damage compared to my Claymore.

- Try detonating a BE vs armor when someone is using disruptor ammo. Unless you have cluster grenades, it's impossible and you end up doing less damage because of it. Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

- Vorchas/Melee Krogans have to stay away from others because it's the only way they can reliably get kills to fuel their bloodlust/rage.

- You can't ever stay near a flamer spammer because yon won't be able to see a goddamn thing.

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

While I recognize all these aspects of the game as a fail, as you do, I would say that your points fall under the category of clunky or awkward game mechanics and that is the game's biggest failure.  ME3 MP is a clunky and awkward game.  In addition to the points you raised, the the game also fails on account of:
1)  Narrow, unadjustable FOV
2) Swervy movement controls
3) Character hogs up screen real estate
4) When enemies are in certain mundane animations, such as reload, they are immune to status effects because ME3 MP is a gentleman's sport and you must be sporting, gracious, and respectful towards your enemy and let the chap have a proper reload for ****s sakes.
5)  Troll Store
6) Etc.

In SP this is all manageable because of the pause button but, in realtime, ME mechanics are pure clunk.

But, Bioware has a history of clunky game play, DA:O for instance.  Although, ME3 MP is by far the worst of the lot in this regard.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 11 janvier 2013 - 01:07 .

[Zjarcal]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

I'm fine with unique abilities. But snap freeze :

- Goes through walls
- Cannot be dodged
- Affects multiple enemies
- Does damage
- Primes absolutely everything
- Does double damage when detonated
- Freezes phantoms

Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

Arctican wrote...

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

If it could prime health and armor, no.

If it could primes shields and barriers as well, yes. Incendiary ammo can't do that.

What if Incendiary could? 

But yeah, I guess you consider it cheap due to it being able to do something another power can't, rather than the power itself being too good?

[Derp88]

I think a lot of these habits stem from the scoreboard in my opinion. I don't really understand why it was implemented in the first place. Some players become obsessed with scoring 1st place that they focus less on teamwork, and more on just ramboing which can lead to some pretty sticky situations for the team. (e.g. messing up spawn points, become flanked, die in a very awkward position, hard to revive, etc)

I think if the scoreboard was removed, people would become less obsessed with kills and more likely to work as a team.

[Tyrannus00]

Interesting how long intelligent conversation has gone on in this thread.