300 réponses à ce sujet

[TheCinC]

While I admit you have a point, it is always better to have others around. If you get into trouble, they can revive you and vice versa. An infiltrator with duration cloak to run the activation objectives is extremely useful. And bosses are taken down more easily when working together. Yes, teammates can screw up your BE's or whatever, but lately I've seen vanguards taking advantage of my primed target and creating a BE, with me getting the credit for the kill too, or fellow adepts detonating my primed target before my cooldown is back to 0, so the boss gets taken down a little quicker. Working together can be a lot of fun and there is nothing more embarrasing than going off on your own and dying in a corner of the map before your teammates can get to you.

Imho, a teammates actions should -never- completely negate your own efforts. It is too bad that tech powers cancel out a biotically primed target, that should just not happen. I'd rather have the enemies buffed a little and that game mechanic being taken out. As for the screen shake, that should only happen to the person using the power. With a few tweaks like that, cooperation could be even more effective.

Modifié par TheCinC, 11 janvier 2013 - 12:55 .

[KalilKareem]

In a MMO style game the healer-tank-dps trinity makes the team infinitely stronger than it's individual components (try running an MMO raid with only DPS). If Bioware wished to create such a game I assume they would have been able to do so. I actually think the lone wolf aspect of the game suits the mood and athmosphere of the Sp campaign fairly well.

For their next game I do hope that bioware put more thought into the collaborative aspect of the game, since it would make for a far more interesting game play.

[Jeeshan2]

Incendiary/flamer/cryo Rounds on a shielded enemy can be detonated but it depends on the detonator I think (can't remember) - not sure if it's overload or warp (probably warp), but it has happened during few matches.

[Grunt_Platform]

Complete agreement. There are so many more ways for the team to screw things up for each other than to synergize. Even though the easiest way to play is to move as a group and just watch each other's backs, even that can backfire as often as not.

I don't think most of it can be fixed with ME3, but I hope the next multiplayer Mass Effect is more conscious of co-op mechanics. Can't count on voice-chat for all team coordination.

[Deerber]

Knockingbr4in wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

Beeno4Life wrote...

You seem to be missing one little tidbit; Cryo Blast is considered one of the worst--if not THE worst--powers in the game for the very reason that it does absolutely nothing that SF does, beside making mooksicles.

Considered by whom? There are a lot of people - like me - that consider it a perfectly solid power, even excellent depending on the other powers available to the kit in question.

This has been discussed recently.

Thanks for saving me the hassle of finding the thread. Cryo blast is a debuff. Snap freeze is not.

Snap Freeze also has debuff properties. Hence, it is not a debuff. Wait..

It debuffs armor, which is pretty useless. Everyone and his mother is already around 100% armor reduction ignore. If he's not, then he doesn't care about the damage his weapon does.

I meant real debuff. 25% more damage. Like, cryo blast a ravager, shoot the claymore, ravager's gone. That is what I call a debuff.

[TODD 5184]

When I use flamer, I use, flame, dodge, reset my recharge and set fire prime for others.

Accomplishes 2 things, 1. It doesn't blind my team, 2. Sets up fire explosion bombs.

You're welcome.

[joker_jack]

KalilKareem wrote...

In a MMO style game the healer-tank-dps trinity makes the team infinitely stronger than it's individual components (try running an MMO raid with only DPS). If Bioware wished to create such a game I assume they would have been able to do so. I actually think the lone wolf aspect of the game suits the mood and athmosphere of the Sp campaign fairly well.

For their next game I do hope that bioware put more thought into the collaborative aspect of the game, since it would make for a far more interesting game play.

yet people like op will still complain. a big part of why we are seeing a slow crash the vg industry. bw i think will have learned about the type of audience they want to attract. the cod  crowd, though being a big market is also a very stupid and egotisticsl one. alot of the lone wolf attitude comes in this crowd. alot of similar coop games go threw this as well. 

[Fortack]

KalilKareem wrote...

In a MMO style game the healer-tank-dps trinity makes the team infinitely stronger than it's individual components (try running an MMO raid with only DPS). If Bioware wished to create such a game I assume they would have been able to do so. I actually think the lone wolf aspect of the game suits the mood and athmosphere of the Sp campaign fairly well.

For their next game I do hope that bioware put more thought into the collaborative aspect of the game, since it would make for a far more interesting game play.

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack. Usually they seem to completely ignore a raging Krogan in their midst and continue shooting a glass-canon across the map. Hence why playing a tough character doesn't make things easier for the team as a whole but only for the one playing such a character

[HolyAvenger]

Fortack wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

In a MMO style game the healer-tank-dps trinity makes the team infinitely stronger than it's individual components (try running an MMO raid with only DPS). If Bioware wished to create such a game I assume they would have been able to do so. I actually think the lone wolf aspect of the game suits the mood and athmosphere of the Sp campaign fairly well.

For their next game I do hope that bioware put more thought into the collaborative aspect of the game, since it would make for a far more interesting game play.

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack. Usually they seem to completely ignore a raging Krogan in their midst and continue shooting a glass-canon across the map. Hence why playing a tough character doesn't make things easier for the team as a whole but only for the one playing such a character

This is something I actually like, as it makes the AI seem more intelligent. It never made much sense in DA2 for example that the enemy ignored my AoE nuker mage for Aveline turtling behind her shield doing barely any damage.

Plus once you start adding those sorts of mechanics, you begin to force players and kits into certain kinds of playstyles and compositions, taking away the freedom to build in a certain manner or experiments.

Basically, screw the MMO style healer-tank-DPS mechanics. They suck

[Deerber]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fortack wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

In a MMO style game the healer-tank-dps trinity makes the team infinitely stronger than it's individual components (try running an MMO raid with only DPS). If Bioware wished to create such a game I assume they would have been able to do so. I actually think the lone wolf aspect of the game suits the mood and athmosphere of the Sp campaign fairly well.

For their next game I do hope that bioware put more thought into the collaborative aspect of the game, since it would make for a far more interesting game play.

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack. Usually they seem to completely ignore a raging Krogan in their midst and continue shooting a glass-canon across the map. Hence why playing a tough character doesn't make things easier for the team as a whole but only for the one playing such a character

This is something I actually like, as it makes the AI seem more intelligent. It never made much sense in DA2 for example that the enemy ignored my AoE nuker mage for Aveline turtling behind her shield doing barely any damage.

Plus once you start adding those sorts of mechanics, you begin to force players and kits into certain kinds of playstyles and compositions, taking away the freedom to build in a certain manner or experiments.

Basically, screw the MMO style healer-tank-DPS mechanics. They suck

I agree with Djeck here. ME is no MMO. Don't try to turn it into one. Aggro is perfectly fine for me.

[BridgeBurner]

Fortack wrote...

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack.

Wrong, enemies favour attacking players which are closer. It's extremely easy to draw aggro simply by putting yourself closer to the enemy than their current target.

[Tronar]

Leland Gaunt wrote...

Which brings up another point: a lot of players don't know exactly how the game mechanics work. I realize that everytime when I'm pugging. Most people don't seem to know for example how a specific ammo-type behaves or that you can prime FE's with Incendiary Ammo. That is largely BioWare's fault, or more specifically the fault of those who made the tooltips. I've seldomly seen a game with more horrible and/or misleading/misinforming tooltips, not to mention the description of powers. And not everyone wants to inform himself for a couple of hours by searching answers to questions he might not even have or come across at that point. Some things you'll figure out by yourself, most things not and if no one tells you, you won't never know.

This!

At least now we have some kind of description what a certain ammo type is supposed to do and how big the damage bonus is. But still you are not told by the game itself, that armor piercing has two effects:
1. shooting through cover or shields like the Guardians are carrying
2. reducing the damage reducing effect of armor (yellow life bar)

Peddroelmz (I hope I spelled it correctly) posted some interesting examples showing that for some multi-projectile weapons (mostly shotguns) an armor-piercing mod is more effective than the 25% damage boost from the extended barrel.

There is NO WAY TO KNOW THAT without being a regular reader on the forum.

I've recently seen three PUGs on three different occasions featuring the stability mod on the Harrier. I told them to try out the Harrier with another mod like armor piercing or ext. barrel instead and they were amazed that the Harrier didn't show any significant recoil without the stability mod. But that is stuff you could at least easily find out just by trying by yourself.

But how on earth will you - new to the game - find out that shooting Disruptor Ammo onto a primed target is killing the Biotic Detonation. Certainly not from the in-game description for Disruptor Ammo.


To come back to OP's original issue:
I agree that the opportunities to kill someones synergies and combos are as plentifold as the opportunities to have good team synergies. If you feature three Paladins with one Novaguard or Chain-Overloader, you will see tons of nice cryo explosions, no matter what. But at the same time one Disruptor Ammo featuring Energy-Drainer is enough to ruin it for the other three Biotics on the team.

That is another huge factor why PUG games are harder than games with friends.

My advice to Bioware to remedy some of the issues is:

1. enhance the in-game descriptions for Ammo Types and other equipment

2. block out at least the completely pointless mods for certain weapons. Like the Smart Choke for the Geth Plasma Shotgut or the Armor Piercing Mod for the Kishok or the Cranial Trauma Mod for the Acolyte.

3. Provide a FAQ explaining the Biotic Detonation and Tech/Fire/Cryo Explosions mechanics IN-GAME like this thread tries to accomplish:
http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

(Though I am not sure, if everything is still up to date in this thread after several Patches, DLCs and Balance Changes).

I think it is important to know that a Level 6 primer and a Level 6 detonator make a lot more damage than a Level 4 with a Level 4, even if the "biotic detonation +xx%"-evolution had been chosen.

To avoid stupid mistakes, you either have to read a lot of stuff here on BSN or need to find a group of experienced players sharing their acquired wisdom with you on a regular basis.

[Dark Tlaloc]

Tronar wrote...

Leland Gaunt wrote...

Which brings up another point: a lot of players don't know exactly how the game mechanics work. I realize that everytime when I'm pugging. Most people don't seem to know for example how a specific ammo-type behaves or that you can prime FE's with Incendiary Ammo. That is largely BioWare's fault, or more specifically the fault of those who made the tooltips. I've seldomly seen a game with more horrible and/or misleading/misinforming tooltips, not to mention the description of powers. And not everyone wants to inform himself for a couple of hours by searching answers to questions he might not even have or come across at that point. Some things you'll figure out by yourself, most things not and if no one tells you, you won't never know.

This!

At least now we have some kind of description what a certain ammo type is supposed to do and how big the damage bonus is. But still you are not told by the game itself, that armor piercing has two effects:
1. shooting through cover or shields like the Guardians are carrying
2. reducing the damage reducing effect of armor (yellow life bar)

Peddroelmz (I hope I spelled it correctly) posted some interesting examples showing that for some multi-projectile weapons (mostly shotguns) an armor-piercing mod is more effective than the 25% damage boost from the extended barrel.

There is NO WAY TO KNOW THAT without being a regular reader on the forum.

I've recently seen three PUGs on three different occasions featuring the stability mod on the Harrier. I told them to try out the Harrier with another mod like armor piercing or ext. barrel instead and they were amazed that the Harrier didn't show any significant recoil without the stability mod. But that is stuff you could at least easily find out just by trying by yourself.

But how on earth will you - new to the game - find out that shooting Disruptor Ammo onto a primed target is killing the Biotic Detonation. Certainly not from the in-game description for Disruptor Ammo.


To come back to OP's original issue:
I agree that the opportunities to kill someones synergies and combos are as plentifold as the opportunities to have good team synergies. If you feature three Paladins with one Novaguard or Chain-Overloader, you will see tons of nice cryo explosions, no matter what. But at the same time one Disruptor Ammo featuring Energy-Drainer is enough to ruin it for the other three Biotics on the team.

That is another huge factor why PUG games are harder than games with friends.

My advice to Bioware to remedy some of the issues is:

1. enhance the in-game descriptions for Ammo Types and other equipment

2. block out at least the completely pointless mods for certain weapons. Like the Smart Choke for the Geth Plasma Shotgut or the Armor Piercing Mod for the Kishok or the Cranial Trauma Mod for the Acolyte.

3. Provide a FAQ explaining the Biotic Detonation and Tech/Fire/Cryo Explosions mechanics IN-GAME like this thread tries to accomplish:
http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

(Though I am not sure, if everything is still up to date in this thread after several Patches, DLCs and Balance Changes).

I think it is important to know that a Level 6 primer and a Level 6 detonator make a lot more damage than a Level 4 with a Level 4, even if the "biotic detonation +xx%"-evolution had been chosen.

To avoid stupid mistakes, you either have to read a lot of stuff here on BSN or need to find a group of experienced players sharing their acquired wisdom with you on a regular basis.

This is 100% true. I've played MP since the first week or so the game came out, and I can honestly say that the majority of what I know about it came from BSN. ULM being bugged, skill tree evolutions not working, etc., all that comes from here, and while I noticed things like tech powers "unpriming" targets (when primed by biotics), it took trips to these threads to confirm everything. I like to think that I'm a relatively skilled player, but being informed has made me 100% better than I was, so I can't completely fault PUGs for sucking when so much of my effectiveness as a player has come from BSN.

[Schachmatt123]

Tronar wrote...

3. Provide a FAQ explaining the Biotic Detonation and Tech/Fire/Cryo Explosions mechanics IN-GAME like this thread tries to accomplish:
http://social.biowar...7/index/9822648

(Though I am not sure, if everything is still up to date in this thread after several Patches, DLCs and Balance Changes).

The thread has been updated several times. There need to be one as a sticky in the MP forum too, imo.

Modifié par Schachmatt, 11 janvier 2013 - 03:13 .

[bluenamelesswolf]

How is it the game's fault? It's up to the team on how they want to do with it and it's bad to be lone wolves regardless of class unless your super good.

Most of the PUGs I join are made up of tech/soldier classes but after the 1-2 round even without talking the average player will realize that he's more effective with one or the other if they so happen to be similar tech powers.

IE. I usually play paladin with snap freeze and incinerate but there are times when there's a Quarian with Incinerate or someone else with similar powers. As a result we follow each other around where I would just snap freeze and he/she would use energy drain/incinerate.

With biotics where I play an adept with Reave it doesn't take a PUG too long to start spamming warp on the targets that I reave.

If everybody is a soldier/infilitrator then we still stick together to maximize damage and prevent ourselves from being flanked.

[Knockingbr4in]

Deerber wrote...

Knockingbr4in wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

Beeno4Life wrote...

You seem to be missing one little tidbit; Cryo Blast is considered one of the worst--if not THE worst--powers in the game for the very reason that it does absolutely nothing that SF does, beside making mooksicles.

Considered by whom? There are a lot of people - like me - that consider it a perfectly solid power, even excellent depending on the other powers available to the kit in question.

This has been discussed recently.

Thanks for saving me the hassle of finding the thread. Cryo blast is a debuff. Snap freeze is not.

Snap Freeze also has debuff properties. Hence, it is not a debuff. Wait..

It debuffs armor, which is pretty useless. Everyone and his mother is already around 100% armor reduction ignore. If he's not, then he doesn't care about the damage his weapon does.

I meant real debuff. 25% more damage. Like, cryo blast a ravager, shoot the claymore, ravager's gone. That is what I call a debuff.

Cryo Explosion evolution sure isn't a debuff.

[LoboFH]

Sometimes a "second front" = teamwork

[Fortack]

Annomander wrote...

Fortack wrote...

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack.

Wrong, enemies favour attacking players which are closer. It's extremely easy to draw aggro simply by putting yourself closer to the enemy than their current target.

Maybe there's a slightly bigger chance they will target you when you're close. Yet I've played plenty of games in which hardly any enemy seemed to notice I was blasting them into oblivion at point blank range and others in which pretty much all enemies decided to shoot me ignoring the rest of the team (even though I was on the other side of the map). Heck, the times I got shot while lying on the ground / getting back up are beyond count. Getting hit by a couple atlas rockets while you're in the middle of the rezzing proces is lame.

[Dark Tlaloc]

Fortack wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Fortack wrote...

That's another thing the makes no sense in ME3. You cannot deliberately draw aggro, it's completely random who or what the AI is going to attack.

Wrong, enemies favour attacking players which are closer. It's extremely easy to draw aggro simply by putting yourself closer to the enemy than their current target.

Maybe there's a slightly bigger chance they will target you when you're close. Yet I've played plenty of games in which hardly any enemy seemed to notice I was blasting them into oblivion at point blank range and others in which pretty much all enemies decided to shoot me ignoring the rest of the team (even though I was on the other side of the map). Heck, the times I got shot while lying on the ground / getting back up are beyond count. Getting hit by a couple atlas rockets while you're in the middle of the rezzing proces is lame.

I read somewhere that one of the devs said (I think) that the AI does do some sort of prioritization (possibly based on which players are dealing the most damage) in picking out targets. I think the gist was that it didn't 100% prioritize that way, but that that was at least part of the decision-making process.

Again, this is just what I recall reading, so I could be wrong.

[corporal doody]

everytime i see the topic title...i just wanna say..Your mama was a biggest failure!

and so i will

YOUR MAMA WAS A BIGGEST FAILURE! (and she has a peg leg with a kickstand)

edit: my point being that thread is silly...and it is full of pomp and circumstance..... 
It aint the game...it is the players.....

Modifié par corporal doody, 11 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[LemurFromTheId]

Tronar wrote...

2. block out at least the completely pointless mods for certain weapons. Like the Smart Choke for the Geth Plasma Shotgut or the Armor Piercing Mod for the Kishok or the Cranial Trauma Mod for the Acolyte.

Smart Choke on Geth Plasma Shotgun is not pointless! Smart Choke makes it black so it looks cool.

[Abraham_uk]

cory257383 wrote...

DPS is almost always the most important thing in a game that has HP. The more DPS the quicker the enemy dies.

So in games like this their isnt much to do about it. buff the biotic classes so the DPS isnt all in the hands of weapon users.

This is a fair point.
But this would have to be a very small buff since if the buff is large, then players will complain.

I really don't envy Eric Fagnan.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 11 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[GallowsPole]

Personally I cant see how they can possibly balance this game across four difficulties, multiple weapons and weapon platforms, multiple biotic and biotic platforms, and tech platforms. I say it cant be done the way the MP is now.

[Abraham_uk]

Too many variables to balance.


Also. Being perfectly balanced isn't always a good thing.

Refeering to weapons

Promotionals and Ultra Rares should be Better than Rares.
Rares should be better than uncommons.
Uncommons should be better than commons.

[Fortack]

GallowsPole wrote...

Personally I cant see how they can possibly balance this game across four difficulties, multiple weapons and weapon platforms, multiple biotic and biotic platforms, and tech platforms. I say it cant be done the way the MP is now.

You can achieve that by creating true specialists. But BW have chosen to make all characters effective against everything and all weapons effective (or utterly useless) against everything.

In ME2 Tali and Legion made fighting Geth a (good) joke with their AI Hacking skill, but that didn't have any effect when you were fighting Collectors. Miranda was good at everything, but other squadmates were significantly better at doing one thing but lacked her versatility.
ME2 also used powerful modifiers for weapons (and powers), some were great to strip shields, but lackluster against heavily armored foes etc. There is nothing like that in ME3.

I suppose BW was afraid that some people would complain that their favorite characters sucked against some enemies / factions so they made everything equally effective thus killing anything hinting towards specialization. And with specialization there is little to no room to design simple tactics that would make working in tandem a lot more effective than going at it alone. Unfortunately, the only "teamwork" you can find in ME3 is that 4 people kill faster than 1-3 and that you can revive fallen teammates (which is kinda redundant when everyone also has 6 medigels per match anyway).