300 réponses à ce sujet

[Shezo]

Lots of forementioned problems are due to lack of communication and not the problem of the game itself.
You can't expect to player co-op game like singleplayer, expecting world to revolve around you.

[Sabbatine]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together.

That depends on the difficulty and whether you are in a premade team or not.  On silver and bronze what you have said is true.  On gold and platinum it is not.  When you solo queue more often than not you are correct, when you run with a premade more often than not you are wrong.

Feneckus wrote...

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

Good point, but this goes back to the whole solo queue versus premade team thing.

Feneckus wrote...

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

This is probably the best observation you make as this one more than any other harm the co-op nature of the game.  Screen shaking is perfectly valid if the cause is your own powers or the enemy, but when allies can cause your screen to shake it really does discourage you from being near them.

Feneckus wrote...

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

Is this honestly how you see the game?  Have you even played it these last few months?

[GallowsPole]

If the match isn't over in under 15 minutes, you're doing it wrong. End of story. Screw team play.

[tfoltz]

The game is still being played almost a year after release. There is no failure.

[Beerfish]

The big disconnect is between a well versed team of friends and a casual or pug game. A team that builds itself in the lobby so as to work as a team is going to be very effective. Fenekus is 100% correct about just about all other games. Most games are composed of either classes that do not act the best together or play styles that do not mesh.

[NavySEALCommand]

I think that part of the problem is that about 70% of the match is pretty much Team Deathmatch against bots, which encourages personal DPS for personal score, rather than trying to compliment your teammates' powers.

However, on objective waves (particularly hack circle or escort), a team with great synergy will often be able to clear those faster than those without it, which is why I agree with OP.

[Dark Tlaloc]

Sadly, this was one of the few good things about the golden days of FBW/G/G; it promoted working as a team (a camping team, yes, but a team).

Either way, this is a sad but true fact. I think there are notable exceptions (Biotic squads work really well together, for example), but yes, as a general rule, DPS killaz will rule all, and don’t need a team to back them up. In a lot of ways, the issue is a combination of kits, weapons and players; the elite players have found a way to eek every ounce of efficiency out of potentially powerful glasses, breaking (for lack of a better term) the classes. This is generally done by finding a weapon (usually UR, sometimes Rare) that has excellent synergy with the kit, although not always true (Harriers work pretty well all-around).

I guess the best way to look at it is this: The best players in the game work best by themselves, because they’re efficient enough that having a second person killing things next to them doesn’t add much. However, your average player benefits from team play, which I guess is the point.

[NavySEALCommand]

Sabbatine wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

Is this honestly how you see the game?  Have you even played it these last few months?

That is honestly how the game should be played, not trying to Rambo it.

[Boog_89]

Its co-op in the sense that is is 4 players against the enemy, there are some great opportunites for classes to sync well together but its doesn't mean you should always travel round in a pack of 4.
4 lone wolfs killing the enemy is still a team effort.

[tonnactus]

There is synergy,but only with similar classes. One thing Dragon Age 2 was really good at were devasting cross-class-combos.Only fireexplosions are decent. Tech bursts and Cyro explosion are lacking.Especially if ammo is the primer.

[CrutchCricket]

Feneckus wrote...
4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together.

This was your initial claim but your points don't really support it.

Rather, the rest of your post just seems to say "it is inefficient to chooses classes/powers that are at odds with each other", something which seems fairly obvious.

But to support your initial claim you'd have to show how a team of four DPS monsters running around on their own are more efficient than 4 biotics or whatever, that mesh their powers. And what measure would you use to define efficiency? Speed? Kills per second?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:24 .

[nicola_nibhroin]

I don't know that I'd go as high as 95% with regards it often being more effective (in terms of DPS) to play by yourself but I do agree that there are a lot of things about ME that, as a co-op game, is counterproductive in encouraging actual cooperation and overall team effectiveness/synergy.

A lot of the problems can, in theory, be negated by communication/playing with friends and choosing complimentary kits/weapons (or being aware of common issues like the requirements of Rage/Bloodlust, of using screen-shake powers near shooters, of double-detonating when using overlapping powers to make sure you get your explosion etc.) but if you don't have the luxury to do that, or choose not to, PUGs can quickly become very aggravating.

I think, for power users at least, the situation was vastly improved by the changes to the various tech combos (love triggering FEs with Warp)- previously it was very unpleasant to have a team of mixed Biotic/TEch power spammers, but it would be fantastic if, as mentioned, DPS wasn't the be-all and end-all.

Of course, this is all presupposing that efficiency/effectiveness if more important to you than just the general experience you're having while playing the game but I don't see why the two need to be exlusive.

[HolyAvenger]

tonnactus wrote...

There is synergy,but only with similar classes. One thing Dragon Age 2 was really good at were devasting cross-class-combos.Only fireexplosions are decent. Tech bursts and Cyro explosion are lacking.Especially if ammo is the primer.

Actually this is true. I wonder if they implemented mechanic where you couldn't detonate or prime for yourself would have infinitely improved the teamplay aspects.

[codsquallic]

I find that the best thing for pug games is matching up with someone with complimentary powers. For example if I'm a Geth Engineer, I'll hang around with the Flamer and make as many fire explosions as possible. Or I'll hang with the other Asari, and prime while they trigger. It's great when the other person gets what I'm doing and we start to duo the waves, but mostly I'm forcing myself upon them.

And who doesn't dream of having an Asari forced upon them (ardat yakshi not included)!

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

I'm sorry Feneckus, I like my Hawk Missile Launcher D:

[GallowsPole]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

Oh goody. Another e-peen and stooges thread. I especially like the stooges.

 

Only you could look at a thread that examines core gameplay mechanics and details the inherent problems in their design, and determine that the thread was about "e-peen".

I have a question, have you ever said ANYTHING that wasn't completely idiotic?

Core game mechanics? Really? See if teams were built around synergy and not around single kits, the co-op game would just play fine. Now look at the builds that float around BSN. All set for the most effective way to fight. Solo. Like tac cloak for example. Power bonuses over duration etc etc. I can't even mention smart use of game mechanics (ie reload cancelling) without hardcore nimrods getting on me. So I'll stick to 'cheap' and 'boring'. 

Game has its problems, but the players themselves are worse.

[Tahvi1]

I'd say that the game's biggest failure is the fact there are FAR TOO MANY subtle game and kit mechanics that the game itself doesn't tell you about. A player shouldn't have to read forums to find these things out.

For example:
http://social.biowar.../index/15533198

Modifié par Tahvi1, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[joker_jack]

GallowsPole wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

Oh goody. Another e-peen and stooges thread. I especially like the stooges.

 

Only you could look at a thread that examines core gameplay mechanics and details the inherent problems in their design, and determine that the thread was about "e-peen".

I have a question, have you ever said ANYTHING that wasn't completely idiotic?

Core game mechanics? Really? See if teams were built around synergy and not around single kits, the co-op game would just play fine. Now look at the builds that float around BSN. All set for the most effective way to fight. Solo. Like tac cloak for example. Power bonuses over duration etc etc. I can't even mention smart use of game mechanics (ie reload cancelling) without hardcore nimrods getting on me. So I'll stick to 'cheap' and 'boring'. 

Game has its problems, but the players themselves are worse.

[Theghostof_timmy]

HolyAvenger wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

There is synergy,but only with similar classes. One thing Dragon Age 2 was really good at were devasting cross-class-combos.Only fireexplosions are decent. Tech bursts and Cyro explosion are lacking.Especially if ammo is the primer.

Actually this is true. I wonder if they implemented mechanic where you couldn't detonate or prime for yourself would have infinitely improved the teamplay aspects.

It would definitely make power users worse...you would have to DRASTICALLY increase BE damage and radius to make that worthwhile. Which isn't a bad idea mind you.

[Josiah83]

Feneckus wrote...

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others...

...Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

You state that lone wolves are better than a team working together and then give examples of teams that don't work together.  IMO, A coordinated and communicating team can easily be more effective than lone wolves.  Finding that team is the hard part.

Part of that is unaviodable.  Some people don't want to communicate and strategize, they just want to go in and blow things up and not worry about whether they're interfering with other's play.

That said, I agree with your general premise.  Bioware could improve things by eliminating some penalties (interfereing with primed explosions) or obnoxious powers (shockwave).

Modifié par Josiah83, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:38 .

[NuclearTech76]

Blind2Society wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus

Doesn't any biotic power with an active effect count for warp ammo?

SIAP I believe it's just primed targets. Like a target with dark channel as a primer takes increased damage from warp ammo but if you BE it the DOT effect of DC still works but you lose the increased damage from warp ammo.

[tfoltz]

When the game first came out people would often switch to tech or biotic players depending on the lobby. As time went on people got fed up having to rely on other players for success, particularly in random lobbies, and started using whatever is best/fun for them (or whatever would get them the most points). If Bioware made it so you would HAVE to use team cohesiveness to win, then there would be a lot more failure in pug lobbies and people would complain about randoms not knowing the mechanics of the game (which we already see). This would lead to people suggesting that the game should provide cohesive game play or the ability to lone wolf at the discretion of the players...which is what we have.

[Deerber]

Yes, I do agree fully with you, Feneckus. This game doesn't reward teamplay. I usually spend half of the time I pug thinking/asking politely on the mic why the hell does this guy always stick to my ass... It makes everything so much more difficult. And that should say everything.

genomandril wrote...

Agreed.

Objectives should have fortified the co-op aspect of the game. However, they failed at that. Pizza carrying? Sounds nice on paper. Implementation was rather... Comical.

Agreed. It would be nice if they required real coordination. I don't know, having to be in 4 places at the same time to press a button, something like that. It would be nice.

Still, objective waves are the only ones in which coordination means something. Not much, but a little bit. They're the only ones in which I don't find myself trying to stay as far away as my teammates (in pugs).

I think the (next) game would benefit a lot if teamplay was rewarded during non-objective waves as well, which means, simply put, that a good team working together should be able to put out more DPS than a team of 4 lone wolfs on the map. Or sticking as a team should be the only way to survive. But as ISHYGDDT said, it's probably a suggestion for ME4 at this point.

Feneckus wrote...

Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

I see this so much that I'm starting to lose faith in humanity... 

Madhouse46 wrote...

I already was aware of the immunity phantoms have, but still why try if the bubble is up, pick a different target , come back afterwards.

ok i stand corrected on the shotgun adept build, that work's very well, fair play. frist time I have ever seen that but i have also yet to unlock the batarian adept. 

on a side note wouldn't the flamer blocking visuals, shockwave making the screen shake, hunter mode hurting the players eyes, all full under the same caterogory of being indiviual based, i haven't add any issues with any of these myself. i just don't think that is a viable reasoning to use as point to say the game doesn't reward co-op play etc

OK at first I thought you were trolling... Now I just think you're new here. Well, you should know that Feneckus is one of the best players around, and has probably a better understanding of how the game behaves than you do 

No offense meant.

HolyAvenger wrote...

The only difficulty I find in SP mode these days is that Shepard cannot gel, and cannot be rez'd. All of a sudden, rushing spawns becomes a trickier notion, CC using biotic powers becomes a heckuva lot more useful and I start thinking a lot more about survivability as opposed to pure DPS in order to take a little longer and finish successfully as opposed to trying to finish faster and dying.

I would really be interested in just how the balance of the game would change if they took away the ability to gel, and maybe even rez your teammates.

About SP, that is true... Until you go Vanguard. Then you just... Kill stuff and don't notice you did 

I would like to see the gels reduced as well, but not taken. I think the number of gels might be difficulty-dependant, like... 2 on gold, 1 on platinum, let's say. Would be nice.

Harting-EN wrote...

of course the speedrun-recordsplayer are probably done by teams who aren't interested in true synergetic playing.

They should really give it a try, i bet they would break some records with an biotic squad.

sry, but infs are just the easy way more or less foolproof.

The only team of biotics which could challenge a 4 GI team on the time would be 4 furies... If they were all played by Link 

unclemonster wrote...

IMO Bioware did a FANTASTIC job. MP was just an added bonus to the SP that we purchased the game for.
Why have you all bothered to play the game 1,000 hours if you hate so much about it?
It is the best game I have played in a looong time.

I would say it was a HUGE WIN!!!

Noone's saying they didn't do a fantastic job. We're all here, arguing and playing the game, even after months, so they must have done an amazing job. But... That shouldn't stop us to express out opinion on how the game could be improved, right? 

[HolyAvenger]

herculeswill22 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

There is synergy,but only with similar classes. One thing Dragon Age 2 was really good at were devasting cross-class-combos.Only fireexplosions are decent. Tech bursts and Cyro explosion are lacking.Especially if ammo is the primer.

Actually this is true. I wonder if they implemented mechanic where you couldn't detonate or prime for yourself would have infinitely improved the teamplay aspects.

It would definitely make power users worse...you would have to DRASTICALLY increase BE damage and radius to make that worthwhile. Which isn't a bad idea mind you.

Or encourage cross-class combos. Like soldiers can't increase their own damage, but biotics can (i.e. AR would increase survivability, but the damage bonus gets tied to biotically primed targets). Or infiltrators get a small damage bonus from cloak, but a large one when the target has been hit by a specific power from an engineer etc.