300 réponses à ce sujet

[V_Davion]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I get your point but some of this can be solved in the lobby by making sure teams have good synergy and complimentary powers.

this

[BridgeBurner]

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

Modifié par Annomander, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:42 .

[corporal doody]

tonnactus wrote...

There is synergy,but only with similar classes. One thing Dragon Age 2 was really good at were devasting cross-class-combos.Only fireexplosions are decent. Tech bursts and Cyro explosion are lacking.Especially if ammo is the primer.

wait wait wait!  Why you bring DA2 out of nowhere?  and ONe thing? perhaps the only thing!! if that is what you wanna call it.

As far as cryo explosions....they were upped at the sametime fire explosions were.....   Fire explosions are FAR FAR FAR EASIER to do than cryo...still.

Tech burst....well...with the whole frequency of cryo and fire explosions...TB are a rare animal indeed!

and though BEs arent as cool as they once were...they still rock the house....but not too many people wanna play as a biotic...cuz of the whole "if you aint rocking the DPS heavy classes with uber weaps....you wrong dawg...you wrong."

[whateverman7]

i agree the biggest failure is not sticking to the co-op theme, but not for the reasons you mentioned. All the things you mentioned just come off as irritations to personal play and not really problems.

The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.

These boards are the prime example of that. The majority of threads revolve around scoring. Whether it's about characters/weapons/builds that can help you score a lot, ones that cant, the game needing to be 'balanced' so everyone/thing has a chance to 'contribute', how much people outscored others, etc.; they all revolve around people's scores and placement on the scoreboard.

If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

[Deerber]

 

CrutchCricket wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. 

This was your initial claim but your points don't really support it.

Rather, the rest of your post just seems to say "it is inefficient to chooses classes/powers that are at odds with each other", something which seems fairly obvious.

But to support your initial claim you'd have to show how a team of four DPS monsters running around on their own are more efficient than 4 biotics or whatever, that mesh their powers. And what measure would you use to define efficiency? Speed? Kills per second?

Speed I guess. And he doesn't need to prove it, it's under everyone's eyes.

Sabbatine wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together.

That depends on the difficulty and whether you are in a premade team or not.  On silver and bronze what you have said is true.  On gold and platinum it is not.  When you solo queue more often than not you are correct, when you run with a premade more often than not you are wrong.

It's perfectly ture even on gold and platinum.

Sabbatine wrote...

Is this honestly how you see the game?  Have you even played it these last few months?

...

Next?

[tonnactus]

By the way,its Bioware fault that many not really know the game mechanics. THere are a lot of things,including the balance changes and bugs, a player only knows by visiting this forum

[NavySEALCommand]

Annomander wrote...

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

This. People can argue all day about which characters do really well together when set-up that way, but what about when that one person doesn't want to work together?

Should I be penalized for someone playing the way they want to while I am playing the way I want to?

[Miniditka77]

Beerfish wrote...

The big disconnect is between a well versed team of friends and a casual or pug game. A team that builds itself in the lobby so as to work as a team is going to be very effective. Fenekus is 100% correct about just about all other games. Most games are composed of either classes that do not act the best together or play styles that do not mesh.

Bingo - 100% true.  If you set the team up in the lobby the right way (e.g. "hey, we're doing a biotic death squad, nobody equip disruptor ammo" or "I'm using Snap Freeze, somebody else use a class with Chain Overload or Shockwave"), a lot of these issues could be avoided.  In a PUG game, you often get 4 players playing how they want to play - and if those play styles conflict with one another, you're gonna have a bad time.   This won't fix all of the issues (especially issues related to power-blocking bubbles), but it would make it a lot better.

[DeadeyeCYclops]

every games biggest failure is the playerbases overinflated sense of entitlement : everything they don't like should be changed, so i vote for balance changes every day and each bsn member gets a random number between 1-10k, random drawing every morning so you can get your personal changes implemented into the game for 22 hours( need time to "reset the game" ) after your changes expire... lol

Modifié par DeadeyeCYclops78, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[HolyAvenger]

Deerber wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

The only difficulty I find in SP mode these days is that Shepard cannot gel, and cannot be rez'd. All of a sudden, rushing spawns becomes a trickier notion, CC using biotic powers becomes a heckuva lot more useful and I start thinking a lot more about survivability as opposed to pure DPS in order to take a little longer and finish successfully as opposed to trying to finish faster and dying.

I would really be interested in just how the balance of the game would change if they took away the ability to gel, and maybe even rez your teammates.

About SP, that is true... Until you go Vanguard. Then you just... Kill stuff and don't notice you did 

I would like to see the gels reduced as well, but not taken. I think the number of gels might be difficulty-dependant, like... 2 on gold, 1 on platinum, let's say. Would be nice.

I haven't done my SP Vanguard playthrough yet, but unfortunately the fact they gave Nova to vanguards in SP has broken that kit. Easily fixed. ME2 style vanguard was perfect. High-risk, high-reward.

Yeah that works for me as well. Increase in consumables has certainly changed how the game is played. I would love to see attempts at gold and plat that involve no-gelling, and for hardcore mode, no rezzing. I bet that all of a sudden, you might find teams incorporate a gethgineer or two instead of 4 GIs or something...

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:48 .

[whateverman7]

Annomander wrote...

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

you dont have to be less effective though....despite popular belief, everything in this game does flow together...yes, somethings better than others, but everything works together to achieve the goal: extracting....things you and feneckus describe just sound like you're irritated that people arent allowing you to do what you want to do, how you want to do it, when you want to do it; control everything basically....but they dont really sound like problems with the game itself...

[GallowsPole]

Therein lies the problem. Not all of us care about the store, care about speeding through matches or care how fast you kill something. I know some of you will find this really really hard to fathom, but some of us just simply have fun playing co-op matches and why should we have to listen to belly aching because others feel differently. The only people that really bi*tch and moan about co-op and especially pugs, are the ones who demand faster play.

Modifié par GallowsPole, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:54 .

[Dark Tlaloc]

whateverman7 wrote...

i agree the biggest failure is not sticking to the co-op theme, but not for the reasons you mentioned. All the things you mentioned just come off as irritations to personal play and not really problems.

The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.

These boards are the prime example of that. The majority of threads revolve around scoring. Whether it's about characters/weapons/builds that can help you score a lot, ones that cant, the game needing to be 'balanced' so everyone/thing has a chance to 'contribute', how much people outscored others, etc.; they all revolve around people's scores and placement on the scoreboard.

If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

I have hated the scoreboard since the beginning, and totally agree that it hurts team play much more than it helps. I recently played a Giant/R/G game with 3 relatively low N7-ranked players, and outscored the rest of the team by the end. What purpose does showing that serve? They all tried hard; they simply weren’t as experienced (and in some cases, well-equipped) as I was, so now they stare at this big, crooked number on the screen, which implies that my contribution was so much higher than theirs. Was it? Sure; I was reviving constantly the whole game, completing objectives, etc., but it’s a team game, we were working as a team, and we won as a team (it’s much easier to be an Infiltrator when you have 3 living teammates). I like the idea of a team score, because if you carried the game it’s obvious to everyone on your team; you don’t need score to tell you that.

Modifié par Dark Tlaloc, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:52 .

[Feneckus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together.

This was your initial claim but your points don't really support it.

Rather, the rest of your post just seems to say "it is inefficient to chooses classes/powers that are at odds with each other", something which seems fairly obvious.

But to support your initial claim you'd have to show how a team of four DPS monsters running around on their own are more efficient than 4 biotics or whatever, that mesh their powers. And what measure would you use to define efficiency? Speed? Kills per second?

4 GIs being better than 4 biotics is not what I wanted to talk about.

I wanted to talk about synergy.

How does it make sense that I can usually kill stuff faster on my own than when someone is trying to help ?

Battlefield 3 is more of a co-op game than ME3. Hell, even an Unreal Tournament Team Deathmatch game has more of a co-op feel 

[Shezo]

Annomander wrote...

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.
If you look at it this way, you ll see that there is no problem per se.
Also, you're saying it's not about e-peen and then proceed to say it's about e-peen (making it under achieve)
Way to go, hehe.

Modifié par Shezo, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[NavySEALCommand]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

The store has also led to just about all the 'easy mode' glitches and exploits that I can think of.

Missile Glitching? Credits
Rio Farming? Credits
Old White Farming? Credits
Hydra Glitching? Credits
Money Glitching? Credits
 

Modifié par NavySEALCommand, 10 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

GallowsPole wrote...

Therein lies the problem. Not all of us care about the store, care about speeding through matches or care how fast you kill something. I know some of you will find this really really hard to fathom, but some of us just simply have fun playing co-op matches and why should we have to listen to belly aching because others feel differently.

Well even without hard data/stats, I'd say you're in the minority. Look at all the 'RNG screwed me over threads', 'This is the best farming setup' threads, etc...

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

NavySEALCommand wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

The store has also led to just about all the glitches and exploits that I can think of.

Missile Glitching? Credits
Rio Farming? Credits
Old White Farming? Credits
Hydra Glitching? Credits
Money Glitching? Credits
 

Money is the problem. Even in a frigging game. Lol.

[GallowsPole]

Even if we are a minority, we still exist in your games. So to speak.

[NavySEALCommand]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

NavySEALCommand wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

The store has also led to just about all the glitches and exploits that I can think of.

Missile Glitching? Credits
Rio Farming? Credits
Old White Farming? Credits
Hydra Glitching? Credits
Money Glitching? Credits
 

EA is the problem. Lol.

Fixed

[whateverman7]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

that's the case for most friends that play together, but not randoms....cause most of the people that do speed runs/wanna finish games as fast as possible, are usually on teams with friends, not with unknowns....i might be mistaken but i took what fenek was talking about was how teams and gameplay mesh together with just a group of unknowns...

on a side note: i do agree with the store's current setup being a problem...that's why i dont understand when people complain about farming....this is a farming setup game cause of the store....

[Dark Tlaloc]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

NavySEALCommand wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

The store has also led to just about all the glitches and exploits that I can think of.

Missile Glitching? Credits
Rio Farming? Credits
Old White Farming? Credits
Hydra Glitching? Credits
Money Glitching? Credits
 

Money is the problem. Even in a frigging game. Lol.

Agree. While I've learned to play even Gold for fun (used to play it only for credits), the ultimate motivator is definitely still credits, which is definitely against the team-play idea of MP. It's a shame too, because working as a team CAN be a lot of fun.

[BridgeBurner]

Shezo wrote...

Annomander wrote...

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.
If you look at it this way, you ll see that there is no problem per se.
Also, you're saying it's not about e-peen and then proceed to say it's about e-peen (making it under achieve)
Way to go, hehe.

But I might as well not bother playing say, the slasher, when all 3 team mates are using abilities which make it problematic for me to perform well.

Feeling my kit is performing well = fun.

Being unable to prime a BE because of some fool spamming snap freeze, or using disruptor ammo = frustration

Not everyone plays this game for the credits at the end of the match, I play this game to kill stuff; its the "waves" which make me entertained, not the 80k/150k payout at the end of the match.

And if my biotic combos get screwed over by disruptor rounds, I am not having fun as a huge part of my kit's potential is being wasted.

It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with enjoyment. I enjoy trying to make my characters as effective as possible, and other players impacting upon that reduces enjoyment.

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game? I fail to see how my character having trouble detonating BEs with a team mate using disruptor ammo is enjoyable, co-operative or fun in the slightest.

[HolyAvenger]

The store is what is keeping the DLC free and game going. I prefer it to the alternative.