300 réponses à ce sujet

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

- My Claymore Batarian Adept can't play with other biotics. Warp + Claymore with Warp Ammo IV + Cluster Nades = Dead Brute. However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus and the Brute will survive because the biotic explosion does pathetic damage compared to my Claymore.

- Try detonating a BE vs armor when someone is using disruptor ammo. Unless you have cluster grenades, it's impossible and you end up doing less damage because of it. Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

- Vorchas/Melee Krogans have to stay away from others because it's the only way they can reliably get kills to fuel their bloodlust/rage.

- You can't ever stay near a flamer spammer because yon won't be able to see a goddamn thing.

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets?

[BridgeBurner]

upinya slayin wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

- My Claymore Batarian Adept can't play with other biotics. Warp + Claymore with Warp Ammo IV + Cluster Nades = Dead Brute. However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus and the Brute will survive because the biotic explosion does pathetic damage compared to my Claymore.

- Try detonating a BE vs armor when someone is using disruptor ammo. Unless you have cluster grenades, it's impossible and you end up doing less damage because of it. Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

- Vorchas/Melee Krogans have to stay away from others because it's the only way they can reliably get kills to fuel their bloodlust/rage.

- You can't ever stay near a flamer spammer because yon won't be able to see a goddamn thing.

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets?

Ever watch Stentron's speedrun videos? You might see, that they are rarely working in tandem during the runs.

[HolyAvenger]

Annomander wrote...

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game? I fail to see how my character having trouble detonating BEs with a team mate using disruptor ammo is enjoyable, co-operative or fun in the slightest.

Sounds like you want the upsides to co-op gameplay, but not the downsides. If you take a biotic charater into an all-tech game, there should be a downside imo.

[lastofthefive0s]

Feneckus wrote...

How does it make sense that I can usually kill stuff faster on my own than when someone is trying to help ?

Battlefield 3 is more of a co-op game than ME3. Hell, even an Unreal Tournament Team Deathmatch game has more of a co-op feel 

Then by all means, set up your own private lobby and have at it.  No one will then get in your way of killing stuff as fast as you want.  And if you don't want to do that, then go play BF3, Unreal Tournament or whatever else you think has a better co-op feel to it and be done with it already.

[GallowsPole]

No one is saying someone's kit should be minimally effective. Just that the chief aspect of this MP is co-op. If you're readying up in a lobby with other kits you know are going to make yours ineffective, then speak up or move along. You're making the choice to cause yourself grief.

[Zero132132]

One solution is to do something bizarre, like take an adept on a team full of engineers. You can prime for an explosion, and since they'll prime over it, your warp ammo will still be effective. You can also set of their combo detonations with most adepts.

I guess I get your point, but my point is that you can use a lot of this stuff to your advantage. Having your priming basically be unavailable for detonation is fine; you just use your weapons more. You adjust your playstyle based on the party. It isn't the same as gimping yourself exactly; you're optimizing your performance within certain parameters. Most of the time, this won't actually be better or worse.

For instance, if there's a Paladin in your party and you don't want to lone wolf it, choose a Drell Adept with a good weapon, use Reave to prime, and occasionally chuck grenades to detonate cryo explosions (or fire explosions) as well as biotic explosions. It's definitely exploiting snap freeze's glitchiness, but cluster grenades offer a means of causing massive damage after reave and snap freeze have both activated, and you also have the option of using your weapon without worrying about warp ammo losing effectiveness.

If you want to play something else, you still can. I've used an Asari Adept with engineer teams and it's fine; just throw twice to detonate both tech and biotic combos. I actually run her with disruptor ammo sometimes, since I don't like the acolyte but want to have some shield stripping ability. You can do all sorts of weird **** to synergize with your team using almost any class available.

That's what's fun in the game; there's a wide diversity in playstyles even when adopting the same builds. If you WANT to play a specific way, you can always lone wolf it. Truthfully, I think most BSNers do just because it's more fun usually. But the point is that you don't have to to be effective.

[Fortack]

Thank the whiners who complained about ME2 gameplay which did reward good teamplay.

"MMOOAANN, my biotic powers do nothing against a dude with shields, MMOOAANN."

Hence why in ME3 pretty much all powers are effective against everything. A power such as ME2 Overload - which was exceptional for removing shields, but sucked at everything else - has become Overload + Area Reave + Arc Projector + Neural Shock that works through shields, barriers and even stuns armor, and sets up & detonates tech combos.

ME3 powers have been designed to be spammed without much thought following the "press a button and something awesome happens" principal. The idea of specialists has been thrown overboard and without specialist real teamwork cannot exist.

[Feneckus]

Shezo wrote...

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.

The main point of the game is to extract.

The more efficient you are, the more likely you are to extract.

So it IS the main the point of the game.

The faster your team as a whole kills stuff, the better it is. Against Cerberus for example, if you don't kill stuff quickly, you'll have to deal with a ton of turrets. Atlases will have time to catch up and be surrounded by other units, which makes them much more dangerous etc ... The game will become much harder and you might have to use consumables or even solo a wave. So it's in your team's best interest to stay away from them.

upinya slayin wrote...

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets? 

10:31

11:59

I hope these are good enough for you. 

[BridgeBurner]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game? I fail to see how my character having trouble detonating BEs with a team mate using disruptor ammo is enjoyable, co-operative or fun in the slightest.

Sounds like you want the upsides to co-op gameplay, but not the downsides. If you take a biotic charater into an all-tech game, there should be a downside imo.

Or perhaps I should learn to check the loadouts, so if the public player w/ fury has taken disruptor ammo, I can leave....

<_<

[kipac]

That's what teamwork is about.
Being considerate to others and thinking of minimalizing penalties while synerzyzing with teammates:
Not spamming shockwave in sniper's face
Not using tech power on biotic primed target
Not killing target Batarian is falcon punching
Tech works with tech, biotic works with biotic
and so on.

If there was no such penalties in the game, there's not much need for strategy or teamwork.

[HolyAvenger]

Annomander wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game? I fail to see how my character having trouble detonating BEs with a team mate using disruptor ammo is enjoyable, co-operative or fun in the slightest.

Sounds like you want the upsides to co-op gameplay, but not the downsides. If you take a biotic charater into an all-tech game, there should be a downside imo.

Or perhaps I should learn to check the loadouts, so if the public player w/ fury has taken disruptor ammo, I can leave....

<_<

I'd probably start by asking them switch ammo types. Never know what might happen if you try to communicate. I was sitting in a plat lobby with a friend the other day, a couple of players came in and readied up without consumables. We asked them to put some one, which they did. A couple of smooth plat games followed.

[Gylukios]

whateverman7 wrote...

that's the case for most friends that play together, but not randoms....cause most of the people that do speed runs/wanna finish games as fast as possible, are usually on teams with friends, not with unknowns....i might be mistaken but i took what fenek was talking about was how teams and gameplay mesh together with just a group of unknowns...

This.

People who play with full squads of friends have a game experience that is necessarily irregular, the baseline "average" game being one with 3 random teammates. A full squad of friends can usually tear through anything on this game with little effort. Four randoms have a far more difficult time due to the problems Feneckus mentioned.

Trying to communicate with randoms usually ends in a failure, they either aren't listening, won't change their setup, or think you're lying, especially when trying to explain complicated mechanics like power detonation priority. You might as well be speaking in tongues to most randoms, and most will never believe that you know something they don't about the game you're both playing, people are arrogant that way. There's also no way to hang a sign up on your profile exclaiming "I know what I am doing, listen to me!"

The end result is a self-fuffiling prophecy wherein every PUG player must assume for their own well-being that the three other players have no idea what they are doing, and leads to everyone going for classes/strategies that are independant of other classes/strategies and lone wolfing it rather than picking a power/team synergy class and risk their time/consumables on the possibility that their teammates will screw up.

[DeadeyeCYclops]

whats really sad about this thread, if none of the things feneckus mentioned exsisted in the game, the l33ts would just be ****ing about the game being too easy

[megawug]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

IMHO, it boils down to what is "fun" to you.  There are (a few) people whose first priority is not to acquire stuff as fast as possible, nor to prove how "skilled" they are.  Yes, that is hard to believe.

So then what's the point of playing?  For the laughs, chats, theme games, etc.  The social aspect has certainly enhanced the game.  Isn't that the point of playing a co-op game?

[Serker31]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...
Agree. While I've learned to play even Gold for fun (used to play it only for credits), the ultimate motivator is definitely still credits, which is definitely against the team-play idea of MP. It's a shame too, because working as a team CAN be a lot of fun.

Makes me think that adding a difficulty level above Platinum will make Platinum a cakewalk and it will be used only for fun. Only jumping above your head makes you better, after all.

About OP thread. There is no "teamplay" word in "cooperative game"; so it is not exactly fail. This game is more casual-oriented, and it has positive and negative sides. Positive side is, you don't need competent group all the time and therefore may play with random people without worriyng about screwing your game entirely and community is not as elitistic and unforgiving as it could be. Negative side - there no big challenge for above-decent players and that's what make people a little sad.

[Seifer006]

Fortack wrote...

Thank the whiners who complained about ME2 gameplay which did reward good teamplay.

"MMOOAANN, my biotic powers do nothing against a dude with shields, MMOOAANN."

Hence why in ME3 pretty much all powers are effective against everything. A power such as ME2 Overload - which was exceptional for removing shields, but sucked at everything else - has become Overload + Area Reave + Arc Projector + Neural Shock that works through shields, barriers and even stuns armor, and sets up & detonates tech combos.

ME3 powers have been designed to be spammed without much thought following the "press a button and something awesome happens" principal. The idea of specialists has been thrown overboard and without specialist real teamwork cannot exist.

Everything said here: I Agree.

I rememer the days of ME2 where I would have to bring Miranda or Archangel on my squad since It was necessary to remove the Blue Suns Shields.

Or when fighting the Collectors it was a Grand idea to bring Grunt (awesome Kroganess) & either Samara or someone who peneterate through barriers/armor quickly. This was called: RPG. Something ME3 does NOT have in relation to what ME1 & 2.

Ahh those days where I could do: Project Rho on Insanity being a Psychotic Vanguard equipped with ME2 (version) of the Claymore bad**** gun

or when ME1 had Deep RPG elements where it took Brass Balls to do Insanity on Level 1 and ME2 Insanity was an Actual Challenge

yes the "press a button and watch something cool happen" is for brainless pyjacks. We need a Real-Ground-Pounder DLC

[GallowsPole]

Hehe I'm sorry. Using the store as an argument is just ludicrous when a lot of us can play just fine with the weapons we got.

[CrutchCricket]

Feneckus wrote...
4 GIs being better than 4 biotics is not what I wanted to talk about.

But that was what your "main point" was saying (though without naming GIs in particular). You started off by saying 4 lone wolves > 4-man team. Not something I'm necessarily disputing knowing your reputation and the rep of the other "pros". Hell if you said Jay > 4-man team I'd probably believe you. But that's a function of player skill, not just game mechanics. On average that may not be as clear.

I wanted to talk about synergy.

How does it make sense that I can usually kill stuff faster on my own than when someone is trying to help ?

Because as several of your points mention there is someone working at cross-purposes to you, albeit unintentionally. This, by itself does not prove soloing or Rambo'ing is more efficient. They are instances of non-synergy, but they do not rule out synergy.

Also I don't think Bioware intended everything to synergize to everything else. So it is possible to "mess up" another player's game if you pick something which impedes their own powers.

Hell, even an Unreal Tournament Team Deathmatch game has more of a co-op feel 

I don't see how. The only difference there is there's no powers so it's harder to impede your teammates (though not impossible). Otherwise it's still "kill all the things".

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:25 .

[Deerber]

Seifer006 wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Thank the whiners who complained about ME2 gameplay which did reward good teamplay.

"MMOOAANN, my biotic powers do nothing against a dude with shields, MMOOAANN."

Hence why in ME3 pretty much all powers are effective against everything. A power such as ME2 Overload - which was exceptional for removing shields, but sucked at everything else - has become Overload + Area Reave + Arc Projector + Neural Shock that works through shields, barriers and even stuns armor, and sets up & detonates tech combos.

ME3 powers have been designed to be spammed without much thought following the "press a button and something awesome happens" principal. The idea of specialists has been thrown overboard and without specialist real teamwork cannot exist.

Everything said here: I Agree.

I rememer the days of ME2 where I would have to bring Miranda or Archangel on my squad since It was necessary to remove the Blue Suns Shields.

Or when fighting the Collectors it was a Grand idea to bring Grunt (awesome Kroganess) & either Samara or someone who peneterate through barriers/armor quickly. This was called: RPG. Something ME3 does NOT have in relation to what ME1 & 2.

Ahh those days where I could do: Project Rho on Insanity being a Psychotic Vanguard equipped with ME2 (version) of the Claymore bad**** gun

or when ME1 had Deep RPG elements where it took Brass Balls to do Insanity on Level 1 and ME2 Insanity was an Actual Challenge

yes the "press a button and watch something cool happen" is for brainless pyjacks. We need a Real-Ground-Pounder DLC

Uh? I agree with what you guys said, but ME1 and 2 at insanity were not that hard at all 

[Fortack]

DeadeyeCYclops78 wrote...

whats really sad about this thread, if none of the things feneckus mentioned exsisted in the game, the l33ts would just be ****ing about the game being too easy

Not really. The whiners would be all over the place b/c they refuse to accept the fact that teamwork requires specialists. And being a specialist means you're good at one thing, but totally suck at the other(s). Such characters do not exist in ME3. Everyone is good at everything which defeats the point of anything resembling proper teamwork by default.

If ME3 MP was a strategy game all factions would have only one and the same unit to chose from. That's pretty sad

[Shezo]

Annomander wrote...

But I might as well not bother playing say, the slasher, when all 3 team mates are using abilities which make it problematic for me to perform well.

That's co-op game, world doesn't revolve around you.
Co-op game with tons of abilites, that hard to cross-balance.
But that's not gamebreaking and not even hampering the ability to enjoy this game.

Feeling my kit is performing well = fun.
Being unable to prime a BE because of some fool spamming snap freeze, or using disruptor ammo = frustration

That's singleplayer mindset in multiplayer co-op game.
It's not the problem of this game.

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game?

If someone snapfreezing stuff, not letting you to do BE, you're are less effective and paladin is more effective, but overall, the effectivness of the team (that seems doesn't bother you much) is not affected.
That's true in a lot of cases.
Wub-wub-wub screenshaking is a problem, tho.

[unclemonster]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...



The reason i say they didnt stick to the co-op theme pretty much boils down to human nature and people wanting to compete. Once people saw there was a scoreboard, it become people's mission to top that scoreboard. It made them throw the notion of working together out the window, and to run off on their own to get as many points as possible.
If bw really wanted to stick to the co-op theme, they shouldnt have included the scoreboard how it currently is presented. They couldve included one showing medals, team score, etc., but it shouldnt have placements and individual scores. That way people would care more about finishing games instead of being 1st.

That's not the problem. The problem is the store which 'forces' us to be efficient if we want to unlock stuff at a decent rate.

To do that, people want to finish their matches fast. Being the most efficient = finishing matches fast.

Doing combos and other coop stuff = being slower (in most cases).

But the efficiency stage is over for alot of us here as we have maxed manifests.
So, what does time matter at this stage?

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

GallowsPole wrote...

Hehe I'm sorry. Using the store as an argument is just ludicrous when a lot of us can play just fine with the weapons we got.

I can play just fine with an Avenger I. But that doesn't mean I don't want to unlock a PPR X or a Black Widow X.

unclemonster wrote...

But the efficiency stage is over for alot of us here as we have maxed manifests.
So, what does time matter at this stage?

It doesn't matter for me anymore at least. I've truly started doing stupid setups with bleh weapons after I maxed my manifest. I did do a few runs with meh weapons before I maxed out my manifest, but those were far and few between.

megawug wrote...
IMHO, it boils down to what is "fun" to you.  There are (a few) people whose first priority is not to acquire stuff as fast as possible, nor to prove how "skilled" they are.  Yes, that is hard to believe.

So then what's the point of playing?  For the laughs, chats, theme games, etc.  The social aspect has certainly enhanced the game.  Isn't that the point of playing a co-op game?
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]

You can have fun games, chat with friends and be efficient credit wise. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

I had fun unlocking stuff and joking around with friends.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 10 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .

[RoundedPlanet88]

Annomander wrote...

Shezo wrote...

Annomander wrote...

The question nobody has answered yet, that Feneckus raised is...

Why should I have to be less effective, just because of my team mates?

Why are there so many things in the game that make ME less effective; preventing ME from using my character to its fullest...

If its a co-op game, surely the idea would be to ensure that everything works flawlessly together, so there are not situations like Feneckus described.

How powerful MY character is, is dictated primarily by my skill, and secondly; by what stuff my team mates do. Why should my shockwave spamming team mate disrupt my aim? Why should that stupid snap freeze spamming paladin overwrite MY combos? It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with other players messing YOUR playstyle up, and making it under achieve.... which has no place in a co-operative game.

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.
If you look at it this way, you ll see that there is no problem per se.
Also, you're saying it's not about e-peen and then proceed to say it's about e-peen (making it under achieve)
Way to go, hehe.

But I might as well not bother playing say, the slasher, when all 3 team mates are using abilities which make it problematic for me to perform well.

Feeling my kit is performing well = fun.

Being unable to prime a BE because of some fool spamming snap freeze, or using disruptor ammo = frustration

Not everyone plays this game for the credits at the end of the match, I play this game to kill stuff; its the "waves" which make me entertained, not the 80k/150k payout at the end of the match.

And if my biotic combos get screwed over by disruptor rounds, I am not having fun as a huge part of my kit's potential is being wasted.

It's nothing to do with epeen, its to do with enjoyment. I enjoy trying to make my characters as effective as possible, and other players impacting upon that reduces enjoyment.

Again, you haven't answered the question... what part about one character being less effective (and thus contributing less to the team as a whole) is a good element for a co-op game? I fail to see how my character having trouble detonating BEs with a team mate using disruptor ammo is enjoyable, co-operative or fun in the slightest.

Or casting a singularity to set up multiple BEs, only for that idiot to overload them. Because now instead of KILLING everything, we`ve just irritated them with his tickleburst.