300 réponses à ce sujet

[Seifer006]

Deerber wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Deerber wrote...
Uh? I agree with what you guys said, but ME1 and 2 at insanity were not that hard at all 

That isn't the point. The thing is that selecting the proper squadmates in ME2 did make a huge difference. You could easily complete a mission twice as fast if you had some sort of a plan. In ME3 it is more or less irrelevant what squad is being used b/c it has (close to) zero impact on how well the team will perform. That means you don't have to work together in ME3 to get the best results and that goes against the most basic rule concerning teamwork.

I know, and I completely, wholeheartedly agree. That's one of the things I truly missed from the previous games in ME3. Especially ME2 had that, much more than ME1 even.

I just wanted to say that they were not that hard because the guy mentioned something like Brass Balls to do ME1 on insanity and that just wasn't the case for me 

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

[Dark Tlaloc]

Uh Cold wrote...

It's sad but you're right, at this point in the game it's safe to say BioWare really had no idea what they were getting into with the MP.

All we can do is bring it up and hope they take notes for ME4.

I don't really think it's so much "sad to say" as it is inevitable. Mass Effect's combat has always been a mixture of classic Bioware RPGs with Gears of War, and they had no way to gauge what to what levels players would be able to exploit said gameplay until now. Going from doing this SP only in ME1 and 2, to doing a full MP, and continually adding drastically different classes and weapons would be a lot of game-balancing work for any company, much less one who hasn't done it before.

I personally think they've had an awesome first attempt at it, but you're right, it's on us to point out the things Bioware needs to improve for the next one.

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

Shezo wrote...

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.

The main point of the game is to extract.

The more efficient you are, the more likely you are to extract.

So it IS the main the point of the game.

The faster your team as a whole kills stuff, the better it is. Against Cerberus for example, if you don't kill stuff quickly, you'll have to deal with a ton of turrets. Atlases will have time to catch up and be surrounded by other units, which makes them much more dangerous etc ... The game will become much harder and you might have to use consumables or even solo a wave. So it's in your team's best interest to stay away from them.

upinya slayin wrote...

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets? 

10:31

11:59

I hope these are good enough for you. 

don't take this the wrong way, cause it is impressive and all, but i don't count sniping on PC as a challenge. no auto aim, and using a mouse makes it way easier to spam headshots. and jay has it mastered. The idea was using powers together. take away the javelin Xs and do one with 4 different power classes but don't work in tandom. everyone stay to their own quarter of the map "lone wolfing " it as you say, then do it in tandom setting off each others explosions and you'll see your time is much better. which proves your point kinda pointless.

[HolyAvenger]

Seifer006 wrote...

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

I have done ME1 insanity from Level 1 multiple times. Apart from the fight outside Chora's Den, and maybe the Krogan BattleMaster on Therum (depending on team skills and composition), it is quite easy.

[Deerber]

Seifer006 wrote...

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

Level 1? You mean ME1 from lvl 1? Then yes, twice. And... It didn't feel difficult, honestly.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I ran the same character twice, and I still think that what I used is one of the best overall combination in that game.

Vanguard/Nemesis with electronics. Everything felt like a breeze...

Maybe with another character it would have been a lot harder, I don't know.

Modifié par Deerber, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:17 .

[whateverman7]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I don't really think it's so much "sad to say" as it is inevitable. Mass Effect's combat has always been a mixture of classic Bioware RPGs with Gears of War, and they had no way to gauge what to what levels players would be able to exploit said gameplay until now. Going from doing this SP only in ME1 and 2, to doing a full MP, and continually adding drastically different classes and weapons would be a lot of game-balancing work for any company, much less one who hasn't done it before.

I personally think they've had an awesome first attempt at it, but you're right, it's on us to point out the things Bioware needs to improve for the next one.

i agree with you about them having an awesome attempt the first time...this game has been fun as hell and kept me entertained plenty since its release

the only thing that worries me about bioware taking what we point out is people trying to mkae this game something it isnt....as long as people remember it's a co-op game and make suggestions to keep it true to that nature, suggest away....

[N7Kopper]

The problem with the lack of co-op in co-op is that the game itself was never designed for it, even in ME1. The game was always designed so that, unlike other BioWare offerings like Dragon Age, Shepard would always take the lead, and would be the only one capable of standing up for his/herself in a straight-up fight. In Baldurs Gate, it's highly possible to play as Minsc, and he's not only very effective at tanking, he's also effective at dishing out the pain, like you'd expect from a DnD fighter type. (Even though he's a Ranger/Barbarian cross-class)

Compare Grunt in ME2. He does far less damage than you'd expect from an uberkrogan, and enemies smartly ignore his pathetic attempts at gathering aggro to attack Shepard all the way on the other side of the map - who's sniper rifle is actually doing noticable damage. Grunt's concussive shots may lay enemies out - but they don't really hurt very much. The multiplayer was a "can we do this" type of experiment - the mechanics aren't horribly different from single player, the only differences are "no time-dilation or freezing, three powers only, everyone does 100% damage and has weight-based cooldowns" - this leaves a game still oriented toward lone wolves, even with efforts to bring teamplay to the fore. ME4 will hopefully be different.

Deerber wrote...

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I ran the same character twice, and I still think that what I used is one of the best overall combination in that game.

Vanguard/Nemesis with electronics. Everything felt like a breeze.

Everything's broken in ME1. Biotics are broken because you can ragdoll bosses without limit and just wail on them - combat is broken because you can become permanently invincible, tech is broken because there are just so many synthetics to hack...

Modifié par N7Kopper, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:20 .

[Seifer006]

Deerber wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

Level 1? You mean ME1 from lvl 1? Then yes, twice. And... It didn't feel difficult, honestly.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I ran the same character twice, and I still think that what I used is one of the best overall combination in that game.

Vanguard/Nemesis with electronics. Everything felt like a breeze...

Maybe with another character it would have been a lot harder, I don't know.

I did it once... can't remember what I used... the VI mission IMO was damn difficult

[Seifer006]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Seifer006 wrote...

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

I have done ME1 insanity from Level 1 multiple times. Apart from the fight outside Chora's Den, and maybe the Krogan BattleMaster on Therum (depending on team skills and composition), it is quite easy.

Congrats

I only did it once it was very hard (well maybe more very Long) then hard. Time Consuming...but I wanted to try it

[Dark Tlaloc]

whateverman7 wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

I don't really think it's so much "sad to say" as it is inevitable. Mass Effect's combat has always been a mixture of classic Bioware RPGs with Gears of War, and they had no way to gauge what to what levels players would be able to exploit said gameplay until now. Going from doing this SP only in ME1 and 2, to doing a full MP, and continually adding drastically different classes and weapons would be a lot of game-balancing work for any company, much less one who hasn't done it before.

I personally think they've had an awesome first attempt at it, but you're right, it's on us to point out the things Bioware needs to improve for the next one.

i agree with you about them having an awesome attempt the first time...this game has been fun as hell and kept me entertained plenty since its release

the only thing that worries me about bioware taking what we point out is people trying to mkae this game something it isnt....as long as people remember it's a co-op game and make suggestions to keep it true to that nature, suggest away....

I like to think the devs are smart enough to sift through all the whining, and only take the constructive criticism to heart. A lot of the complaining here on BSN is very obviously just sour grapes, with no good foundation to it.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

I agree with the majority of your OP, and have figured out the truth of the OP long ago. The best possible team is 4 lone wolves. It is now, in light of how ridiculous PUG gold has become, the only way I play. Poor players get me killed too much by association of relative distance. So, I stay away from them.

However, I quibble mightily with one portion...

Feneckus wrote...

Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

lolwut?

Incendiary Ammo + Overload = Win. Think ED does the same, although not as reliably as Overload. Fire Explosions do nice damage but do great double stagger.

[andrew688k]

To me, the biggest failure of this game is Weapon > power,
Biotics just need some loving.

[RoundedPlanet88]

Qui-Gon Glenn wrote...

I agree with the majority of your OP, and have figured out the truth of the OP long ago. The best possible team is 4 lone wolves. It is now, in light of how ridiculous PUG gold has become, the only way I play. Poor players get me killed too much by association of relative distance. So, I stay away from them.

However, I quibble mightily with one portion...

Feneckus wrote...

Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

lolwut?

Incendiary Ammo + Overload = Win. Think ED does the same, although not as reliably as Overload. Fire Explosions do nice damage but do great double stagger.

energy drain DOES NOT DETONATE AGAISNT ONLY ARMOR. Energy drain detonates under the following conditions :
1.)the enemy has shields, AND IS NOT A COMBAT DRONE/TURRET
2.) the enemy has barriers
3.) the enemy is a synthetic (geth w/ exception of combatdrone and turret atlases, cerberus turrets, and I think thats it)
4.) the enemy is not in an "invlunibrity frame"
5.) Only if the RNG god decides to let you detonate, all prior condtions MUST BE MEET FIRST

EDIT: your using the harrier TGI is my guess. TGI with avenger and inferno rounds is one of my favorite pug trolling classes, it forces EVERYTHIONG FREAKING ELSE to support you as opposed to doing thier own thing, as you ammo overwrites everything, and overload is ......overload. Not sure why bioware decided to give him overload actually, never really heard a convincing argument for it.

Modifié par RoundedPlanet88, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:30 .

[Zero132132]

Seifer006 wrote...

so you did Level 1 on Insanity? it was easy for ya?

Every enemy scaled to your level in ME1. Truthfully, I had a lot of trouble with my insanity playthrough on ME2. ME3 was easy mode. I just used an adept and used double-pull and/or double-throw on everything that I could, and used warp+throw on stuff I couldn't. It was ridiculous, how easy it was. Only bothered to aim once I got my paladin ranked up.

Meanwhile, in ME2, I was always relying on adrenaline rush to get me through, and if you used power-heavy classes, you couldn't do a **** of a lot because every enemy (even husks) had some form of shielding, either shields/barriers, armor, or some combination of these before you reached health. I relied almost entirely on headshots.

[Dark Tlaloc]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Shezo wrote...

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.

The main point of the game is to extract.

The more efficient you are, the more likely you are to extract.

So it IS the main the point of the game.

The faster your team as a whole kills stuff, the better it is. Against Cerberus for example, if you don't kill stuff quickly, you'll have to deal with a ton of turrets. Atlases will have time to catch up and be surrounded by other units, which makes them much more dangerous etc ... The game will become much harder and you might have to use consumables or even solo a wave. So it's in your team's best interest to stay away from them.

upinya slayin wrote...

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets? 

10:31

11:59

I hope these are good enough for you. 

don't take this the wrong way, cause it is impressive and all, but i don't count sniping on PC as a challenge. no auto aim, and using a mouse makes it way easier to spam headshots. and jay has it mastered. The idea was using powers together. take away the javelin Xs and do one with 4 different power classes but don't work in tandom. everyone stay to their own quarter of the map "lone wolfing " it as you say, then do it in tandom setting off each others explosions and you'll see your time is much better. which proves your point kinda pointless.

I'm going to be nice and disregard the fact that most of your post is an astounding piece of ignorance. But just so you know, using a KBAM is not an instant "20 headshots" button. In fact, using the Javelin is probably easier on console because of the guaranteed body shot and the fact that you don't need to headshot to OSK any more.

Feneckus has done tons more no rocket speedruns than just those 2, some of these with power classes. The fact of the matter is that working as a team, even in pairs, in this game consitutes no more than simply controlling the spawns so that they are easy to group together.

But I'm also interested that you consider the Claymore a sniper rifle when used by a Human Soldier. :lol:

I think Upinya was just pointing out that snipers in general are much easier to use effectively on PC because the PC is much more precise, and snipers are precision weapons. With that being said, even on PC, I’d imagine
the Javelin takes quite a bit of skill to use, given the need to lead your shot. 

Modifié par Dark Tlaloc, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:30 .

[The Renegade Fem-Shep]

This thread is very interesting as I think it depends on play style and unless you get a private game going its uncommon for people to combo. They just never think about it.

The explosions/bursts all typically stagger enemies, deal massive damage, spill effects over to other enemies, and half the time can both detonate and begin another prime.

As a paladin or any warp character I can't tell you how many times I just run around the map making combos off anybody I can. Most people catch on and if you have a group of three power spammers making fire/cyro/biotic explosions you can practically camp in one defensible area. I think ever since farming went out the window people having been focusing on high damage classes over DPS, tanking, and combos. Still half the games I play people frequently make explosions with me. Two paladins with a flamer ally against geth is almost a joke and soooooo much fun.

Also for the record I don't get the hate for flamer/grenade spammers. I love them as allies as they deal obscene amounts of damage and make the games go so much faster.

I guess I'm just a huge fan of the power system as I prefer Adepts and Sentinels and the explosions and skill trees add much more strategy to the game that the second game failed to provide and the first one had no need for as it was all about spamming everything you had.

Modifié par Morugatu, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:33 .

[Deerber]

Seifer006 wrote...

Congrats

I only did it once it was very hard (well maybe more very Long) then hard. Time Consuming...but I wanted to try it

Indeed, it was a lot time consuming. But not hard, overall, for me. Also, using heavy biotics cut the time in half. No more pesky krogans becoming immune to damage, hehe...

Seifer006 wrote...

I did it once... can't remember what I used... the VI mission IMO was damn difficult

The VI mission was a bit hard, yes. To me the worst were the ones with rachni... My electronis was useless. You know, when melee still bypassed shields like it should do by lore... :innocent:

N7Kopper wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I ran the same character twice, and I still think that what I used is one of the best overall combination in that game.

Vanguard/Nemesis with electronics. Everything felt like a breeze.

Everything's broken in ME1. Biotics are broken because you can ragdoll bosses without limit and just wail on them - combat is broken because you can become permanently invincible, tech is broken because there are just so many synthetics to hack...

Agreed, that was kind of my point 

Qui-Gon Glenn wrote...

Incendiary Ammo + Overload = Win. Think ED does the same, although not as reliably as Overload. Fire Explosions do nice damage but do great double stagger.

ED does not detonate on armor unless it's an Atlas/Geth.

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

To be honest I kind of like that teamwork isn't necessary. Would make playing PuGs nearly impossible. Plus when you play with friends you still can use synergy in classes and really annihilate the enemy.

e.g. was playing with 3 BSNers the other day and we were all biotics. U/U/G runs were taking 15-16 minutes w/o spamming missiles or using any strategy besides running around like maniacs.

Not that I hope they don't improve MP for ME4, but I think they did a gosh dern good job with this.

*forget to address the bit about teammates making it harder by cancelling biotics etc.
This is the one aspect that is kind of annoying. So often puggers cancel DoT,explosions or cause screenshake etc. Not that it's necessarily their fault and I'm sure I do the same to other people. I hope they make Biotic/Tech etc not interfere with eachother and for the love of god take out screenshake or vastly reduce its presence.

Modifié par BACON4BREAKFIST, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:38 .

[The Renegade Fem-Shep]

Deerber wrote...
ED does not detonate on armor unless it's an Atlas/Geth.

Interesting, must test this as I swore I did it on a Dragoon....

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

To be honest I kind of like that
teamwork isn't necessary. Would make playing PuGs nearly impossible.
Plus when you play with friends you still can use synergy in classes and
really annihilate the enemy.

e.g. was playing with 3 BSNers the
other day and we were all biotics. U/U/G runs were taking 15-16 minutes
w/o spamming missiles or using any strategy besides running around like
maniacs.

Not that I hope they don't improve MP for ME4, but I think they did a gosh dern good job with this.

Agreed. Its still doable on your own but having teammates to strategize with is the reason private games go much faster and more smoothly.

Modifié par Morugatu, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:38 .

[massef2]

I think .. Balance ....

new difficuly .. Diamond
this difficuly ..(Weak character >> buff 50%)
(Strong character >> nerf 50%)
wave Increase (20~30wave)
it's naver solo ..
new enemy list


Geth - Geth Colossus

Reaper - Harvester

Cerberus - A-61 Mantis Gunship

Modifié par massef2, 10 janvier 2013 - 06:42 .

[Zero132132]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

I'm going to be nice and disregard the fact that most of your post is an astounding piece of ignorance. But just so you know, using a KBAM is not an instant "20 headshots" button. In fact, using the Javelin is probably easier on console because of the guaranteed body shot and the fact that you don't need to headshot to OSK any more.

Feneckus has done tons more no rocket speedruns than just those 2, some of these with power classes. The fact of the matter is that working as a team, even in pairs, in this game consitutes no more than simply controlling the spawns so that they are easy to group together.

But I'm also interested that you consider the Claymore a sniper rifle when used by a Human Soldier. :lol:

It's still much easier to get headshots on PC. The lack of auto-aim and the sensitivity of the mouse makes it a sensible proposition to go for headshots every time. On console, if you aim, which increases accuracy on most weapons and damage on sniper rifles, you have to take time to correct to aim for the head. Auto-aim doesn't actually keep you on the target, either, so with decreased sensitivity, moving targets are actually kind of a pain in the ass. If you're using a Javelin and a Ravager is present, you'll also end up wasting a lot of time when aim set you to a damned swarmer. People claim it snaps to whatever you're targetting, but that definitely isn't the case.

Meanwhile, the hitbox for enemy heads are, at almost any range on the maps we have, larger than the emoticon faces below the text box I'm typing in. If I can make a :innocent:, I can't imagine that I couldn't hit the head of an enemy on a stationary target with extreme ease, and with the higher sensitivity and responsiveness of a mouse, account for a target's movement seems like it'd be easier too.

Not wanted to incite console wars here, just saying that realistically, it's easier to get headshots on PC than console. This affects the damage output of all weapons, so no-rockets runs with weapon focussed classes are going to be faster on PC than Xbox just because there's a big disparity in potential damage output, and to reach that same damage output on xbox requires that you correct for the aim snapping to the center of an enemy when you're going to take a shot.

Seriously, not trying to disrespect you, but being completely honest, can you say that it's harder to headshot a stationary enemy than it is to do this: ?

[RoundedPlanet88]

Morugatu wrote...

Deerber wrote...
ED does not detonate on armor unless it's an Atlas/Geth.

Interesting, must test this as I swore I did it on a Dragoon....

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

To be honest I kind of like that
teamwork isn't necessary. Would make playing PuGs nearly impossible.
Plus when you play with friends you still can use synergy in classes and
really annihilate the enemy.

e.g. was playing with 3 BSNers the
other day and we were all biotics. U/U/G runs were taking 15-16 minutes
w/o spamming missiles or using any strategy besides running around like
maniacs.

Not that I hope they don't improve MP for ME4, but I think they did a gosh dern good job with this.

Agreed. Its still doable on your own but having teammates to strategize with is the reason private games go much faster and more smoothly.

Had a praetorian detonate my overload once. Dosn`t mean it`ll happen consistenly

[Stardusk]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

- Power classes can't stay close to Destroyers / Geth or Sentry Turrets / Combat Drones because those things will make phantoms/praetorians/banshees bubble up. Let's say you're a MQE with a Power Amp IV. You can kill phantoms with Arc grenade -> incinerate. It takes litteraly two seconds. But if you're close to a Destroyer with Hawk Missile Launchers, you won't be able to use your powers, so you have to use your weapon on those two phantoms, which even with the Destroyer's help will take significantly longer than 2s. Which of course means more time for dragoons to flank you or something like that.

- Weapon users can't stay near someone with a screen shaking power. It is so frustrating to be swarmed by phantoms during a hack because you missed 3 Javelin headshots thanks to that Batarian Sentinel spamming shockwave. Again, you would have been much more efficient on your own.

- My Claymore Batarian Adept can't play with other biotics. Warp + Claymore with Warp Ammo IV + Cluster Nades = Dead Brute. However, if someones uses reave or any other biotic power before my Claymore shot, I won't get warp ammo's damage bonus and the Brute will survive because the biotic explosion does pathetic damage compared to my Claymore.

- Try detonating a BE vs armor when someone is using disruptor ammo. Unless you have cluster grenades, it's impossible and you end up doing less damage because of it. Same thing if some genius decides to use energy drain or overload vs armor.

- Vorchas/Melee Krogans have to stay away from others because it's the only way they can reliably get kills to fuel their bloodlust/rage.

- You can't ever stay near a flamer spammer because yon won't be able to see a goddamn thing.

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

Ta prose anglaise est assez imposante.

[Imperator_Prime]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.
[...]
Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. But the truth is, 95% of the time you're better off on your own, away from the rest of your team. That doesn't make sense in a co-op game.

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

I partly agree and- obviously- partly disagree.  Four lone wolves, running around far apart and doing their own thing is great right up until one of them gets dropped and no one can reach them in time to avert a stomp/consumption of a medigel.  Or until you prime a target with Power X and you want a detonator but you don't have a suitable power yourself.  And while you don't want to be clustered up so tight that one grenade can mess up the whole team, it's smart to at least maintain lines of sight to each other so that you may be able to coordinate fire on hardened targets.

I find the most effective strategy most of the time is to run like a wolf pack.  If you're on the move across the map, hunting the enemy down, space out a bit so you can isolate and flank targets and so that the team as a whole is harder to surround.  Maybe break into teams of two if there are four of you and go with whoever has the power set that complements yours best.  But the guy who runs off completely on his own when I'm in a good groove with a team usually gets ganked and the rest of us are like "{sigh} wanna-be-hero is down again, who's reviving his dumb ass this time?"