300 réponses à ce sujet

[longgamma]

Couldnt agree more, it only makes sense to gang up with biotic squadmates. I mostly look out for my own in pug games and it had served me well so far.

[upinya slayin]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Shezo wrote...

Because your own effectivness (and e-peen) is not the main point of the game.

The main point of the game is to extract.

The more efficient you are, the more likely you are to extract.

So it IS the main the point of the game.

The faster your team as a whole kills stuff, the better it is. Against Cerberus for example, if you don't kill stuff quickly, you'll have to deal with a ton of turrets. Atlases will have time to catch up and be surrounded by other units, which makes them much more dangerous etc ... The game will become much harder and you might have to use consumables or even solo a wave. So it's in your team's best interest to stay away from them.

upinya slayin wrote...

False. ever do a speed run w/o using rockets? 

10:31

11:59

I hope these are good enough for you. 

don't take this the wrong way, cause it is impressive and all, but i don't count sniping on PC as a challenge. no auto aim, and using a mouse makes it way easier to spam headshots. and jay has it mastered. The idea was using powers together. take away the javelin Xs and do one with 4 different power classes but don't work in tandom. everyone stay to their own quarter of the map "lone wolfing " it as you say, then do it in tandom setting off each others explosions and you'll see your time is much better. which proves your point kinda pointless.

I'm going to be nice and disregard the fact that most of your post is an astounding piece of ignorance. But just so you know, using a KBAM is not an instant "20 headshots" button. In fact, using the Javelin is probably easier on console because of the guaranteed body shot and the fact that you don't need to headshot to OSK any more.

Feneckus has done tons more no rocket speedruns than just those 2, some of these with power classes. The fact of the matter is that working as a team, even in pairs, in this game consitutes no more than simply controlling the spawns so that they are easy to group together.

But I'm also interested that you consider the Claymore a sniper rifle when used by a Human Soldier. :lol:

like i said , don't take it the wrong way. It wasn't an insult by any means. I was just pointing out that sniping on the PC is way easier then on console. You can move the curser quicker and more precise and it also zooms in on the cursor. no auto aim to adjust to.

And i only looked at the 1 hence the reason i said 4 javelins. The point was OP stated taht lone wolfing is more effective but on power classes I think its way false. I think traveling as a team or even pairs is more effective. That was my only point.

[heybigmoney]

I agree with op's points, but he is also holding the game to way too high standards. Its already the best coop shooter out there and it did it on it's first try. There's room for improvement, but overall the game is still fun over a year later.

It was a tacked on multiplayer to a primarily single player based franchise that turned out to be a hit. I'm pretty optimistic for the future. Its not like we're playing diablo 3 here.

[LemurFromTheId]

I'm a little late to the party but I have to say I agree completely with Feneckus' OP.

To put it all in a nutshell: this game doesn't as much reward teamwork as it just penalizes for bad teamwork.

For example, many have raised the point that you should adjust your class and loadout in the lobby so that it works well with the others. The problem is that most of the incentives for this are negative. The game punishes you or your teammates if you choose a particular class or loadout, but all classes are so self-sufficient anyway that there's rarely an actual benefit - as opposed to just lack of penalty - for choosing something specific. Besides, half of the time the "Quick Match" throws you into a game already in progress, so it's impossible to take your teammates into account anyway.

That being said, I still love this game. But it could be so much more...

Modifié par Aedolon, 10 janvier 2013 - 07:10 .

[Feneckus]

upinya slayin wrote...

i don't count sniping on PC as a challenge. no auto aim, and using a mouse makes it way easier to spam headshots

The idea was using powers together. take away the javelin Xs and do one with 4 different power classes but don't work in tandom. everyone stay to their own quarter of the map "lone wolfing " it as you say, then do it in tandom setting off each others explosions and you'll see your time is much better. which proves your point kinda pointless.

Problem is, you'll **** up the spawns. But once the wave starts, everybody is much better off doing their own thing. We did an All Biotic speed run and I remember being frustrated because someone, or even myself, would detonate a BE before I could use my Claymore, which meant I had to reload and shoot again when I wouldn't have had to on my own.

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

To be honest I kind of like that teamwork isn't necessary. 

There's a huge difference between teamwork being necessary and being much less effective when someone is by your side, to the point that you'd be better off on your own.

[Cyonan]

There was a time when the most efficient way of clearing Gold was to bring multiple Adepts and a Novaguard for detonations.

Then a bunch of us complained that "BioWare hates weapon users except the SI because casters are so much better".

Unfortunately for people who liked teamwork, shooting somebody in the head doesn't require a teammate which we quickly found out when the GI got released and had amazing damage output without the need for another player there.

You're not really going to fix this without redesigning a lot of characters(primarily Soldiers and Infiltrators) to actually benefit from working in a team once they've reached the skill level where they can stay alive on their own.

Or a lot of nerfing of weapons to the point where they're just as bad as the weapons we had at launch before half of us were rocking X level URs.

Modifié par Cyonan, 10 janvier 2013 - 07:39 .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I was expecting a thread about Infiltrators. But we got this & yes I agree with what Feneckus said. Most of the character lack synergy when working together. 

There are 5 solutions to this BW could do but they won't do it:-

- Fix the enemy's dodge & bubble deployment. This is one of the worst mechanic in the game.  Enemies must only dodge is they are in LOS of the power AND they are within a certain visible range....Puting up bubble of denial or rolling halfway across the map is just stupid & lame...  This is the main reason why power synergy is so hard to achieve in game...

-Fix the tracking ability of our powers especially biotics. Honestly you create a biotic power using your mind & will and all you can make it do it travel in a straight line most of the time ? I fail to see the logic here. A Biotic power's tracking should be somewhat like the one the Banshees have...

-Cross class combo. This was implemented in Dragon Age 2. Some powers & weapons can cause stagger, stun or some effects and other powers gain more damage or critical damage from the stagger , stun, etc. Why don't we have that in ME3 ? Some of you will say we have this in the form of : "Deal more damage if target is frozen or scanned"...But the one in DA2 is : "Deal 100% more damage is target is slowed, brittle or staggered".. DA2 system gives playes more reason to actually have a cross class combo...

- XP and credits. This should be more evenly distributed in the game..

-Challenges : Give us challenges that require team playing. Almost all the challenges can be done by soloing...

Modifié par The Sin, 10 janvier 2013 - 07:28 .

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Feneckus wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

To be honest I kind of like that teamwork isn't necessary. 

There's a huge difference between teamwork being necessary and being much less effective when someone is by your side, to the point that you'd be better off on your own.

I completely agree with you, I'm guilty of skimming your original post.

But I'm still glad that this game can be played more like a solo with randoms or with some teamwork/strategy with friends.

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

i don't count sniping on PC as a challenge. no auto aim, and using a mouse makes it way easier to spam headshots

The idea was using powers together. take away the javelin Xs and do one with 4 different power classes but don't work in tandom. everyone stay to their own quarter of the map "lone wolfing " it as you say, then do it in tandom setting off each others explosions and you'll see your time is much better. which proves your point kinda pointless.

Problem is, you'll **** up the spawns. But once the wave starts, everybody is much better off doing their own thing. We did an All Biotic speed run and I remember being frustrated because someone, or even myself, would detonate a BE before I could use my Claymore, which meant I had to reload and shoot again when I wouldn't have had to on my own.

only if all 4 players don't knw what they are doing. it seems to be a lack of map knowledge. on glacier eveyrone naturally flocks to the attic meaning if i stand on the LZ we know there will be a basement spawn. most players don't understand the map. experianced players understand most of the maps therefore the spawning shouldn't be an issue. If your just playing around for fun then yeah you are usually better off on your own, but it doens't mean its more effective. if you can get explosions w/o waiting for a cooldown how is it not effective?

for intance say you have a paladin. you can SF and Inc for an explosiosn but you need to wait fro the cooldown. now say you pair a GE with chain overload. all you do is SF and all he does is overload your frozen targets. you'll get CEs way quicker that way hence deal more damage. with raw firepower its not true since your just competing for kills with a good team. but for power classes espcially biotics it is complety true.

It sounds more like poor teamwork then an actual issue.

[Cyonan]

The Sin wrote...
-Cross class combo. This was implemented in Dragon Age 2. Some powers & weapons can cause stagger, stun or some effects and other powers gain more damage or critical damage from the stagger , stun, etc. Why don't we have that in ME3 ? Some of you will say we have this in the form of : "Deal more damage if target is frozen or scanned"...But the one in DA2 is : "Deal 100% more damage is target is slowed, brittle or staggered".. DA2 system gives playes more reason to actually have a cross class combo...

Part of the problem of doing this in Mass Effect is that Dragon Age mobs tend to be a lot more of a bullet sponge than Mass Effect ones do.

There would be little point to wait for that Adept to stagger any Cerberus target except the Atlas when I can already 1 shot it with my Javelin Infiltrator with a well placed headshot.

[inert14]

I agree, seems like it boils down to DPS. Only objectives actually cause a little bit of teamwork, and even then it isn't very much.

Quick fix: Have a damage multiplier for teamwork-based explosions/debuffs.

Biotic explosion done by two separate players = more damage/radius. Tac Scan a target and it keeps the same damage boost for you, but gets a multiplier for others.

[Leland Gaunt]

Cyonan wrote...

There was a time when the most efficient way of clearing Gold was to bring multiple Adepts and a Novaguard for detonations.

Then a bunch of us complained that "BioWare hates weapon users except the SI because casters are so much better".

Unfortunately for people who liked teamwork, shooting somebody in the head doesn't require a teammate which we quickly found out when the GI got released and had amazing damage output without the need for another player there.

You're not really going to fix this without redesigning a lot of charaters(primarily Soldiers and Infiltrators) to actually benefit from working in a team once they've reached the skill level where they can stay alive on their own.

Or a lot of nerfing of weapons to the point where they're just as bad as the weapons we had at launch before half of us were rocking X level URs.

I hadn't really thought about that. Very good point.

@OP: I definitely understand where you come from. Sometimes working with other people will override and mess up what you where planning to do.
Getting Rage isn't easy when there are people sniping your targets, hence my Krogan cannot use his full melee potential because I can't Rage enough. Same with Vorcha, especially the Engineer because he doesn't have the Lamer but also relies on killing stuff for Bloodlust. Someone overloading the primed target and make your detonator a measly TB annoys the living BS out me.

It's hard to achieve good synergy in this game when you're not aiming for it. With friends it's a lot of fun but honestly, in a PUG I'd rather be by myself 90% of the time killing stuff efficiently than having my actions overriden by teammates.

Which brings up another point: a lot of players don't know exactly how the game mechanics work. I realize that everytime when I'm pugging. Most people don't seem to know for example how a specific ammo-type behaves or that you can prime FE's with Incendiary Ammo. That is largely BioWare's fault, or more specifically the fault of those who made the tooltips. I've seldomly seen a game with more horrible and/or misleading/misinforming tooltips, not to mention the description of powers. And not everyone wants to inform himself for a couple of hours by searching answers to questions he might not even have or come across at that point. Some things you'll figure out by yourself, most things not and if no one tells you, you won't never know.

[MorinthSamara]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

...

If you only care about efficiency, why don't you play 4 GIs or destroyers all the time? This game is not all about efficiency. Other kits exist because they offer variety. They may not be the best DPS killer, but they provide fun and team synergy.

I do agree you need to be careful when assembling a team in the lobby, especially mixing biotics with tech spammers.

[Feneckus]

upinya slayin wrote...

most players don't understand the map. experianced players understand most of the maps therefore the spawning shouldn't be an issue.

If every one is staying in their own quarter of the map, as you said, then yeah, the spawns will be ****ed, it's inevitable.

for intance say you have a paladin. you can SF and Inc for an explosiosn but you need to wait fro the cooldown. now say you pair a GE with chain overload

If you had bothered to read the OP

Feneckus wrote...

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. 

[HolyAvenger]

Cyonan wrote...

The Sin wrote...
-Cross class combo. This was implemented in Dragon Age 2. Some powers & weapons can cause stagger, stun or some effects and other powers gain more damage or critical damage from the stagger , stun, etc. Why don't we have that in ME3 ? Some of you will say we have this in the form of : "Deal more damage if target is frozen or scanned"...But the one in DA2 is : "Deal 100% more damage is target is slowed, brittle or staggered".. DA2 system gives playes more reason to actually have a cross class combo...

Part of the problem of doing this in Mass Effect is that Dragon Age mobs tend to be a lot more of a bullet sponge than Mass Effect ones do.

There would be little point to wait for that Adept to stagger any Cerberus target except the Atlas when I can already 1 shot it with my Javelin Infiltrator with a well placed headshot.

 

Agree but they should rebalance this in future efforts. 

[Beeno4Life]

I missed the part where using Snap Freeze and Overload was an exploit.

[Feneckus]

Beeno4Life wrote...

I missed the part where using Snap Freeze and Overload was an exploit.

Because

1. Snap freeze shouldn't be able to prime shielded/armored/barriered targets
2. The Cryo Explosion does twice as much damage as it should.

Snap freeze is the most bugged power in the game. I haven't played the Paladin in months because of that. Too bad, I really liked the class.

[Cyonan]

HolyAvenger wrote...
Agree but they should rebalance this in future efforts. 

Given that it would mean making everything a bullet sponge, I can't say that I entirely agree that it should happen.

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

most players don't understand the map. experianced players understand most of the maps therefore the spawning shouldn't be an issue.

If every one is staying in their own quarter of the map, as you said, then yeah, the spawns will be ****ed, it's inevitable.

for intance say you have a paladin. you can SF and Inc for an explosiosn but you need to wait fro the cooldown. now say you pair a GE with chain overload

If you had bothered to read the OP

Feneckus wrote...

Teamwork is possible and can be effective. Shield boost + phase disruptor for example is quite nice. Or snap freeze + chain overload, although it's a cheap exploit. 

sounds like your main posts contridicts itself then?
Also how is it cheap to set off a cryo explosion?

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

Beeno4Life wrote...

I missed the part where using Snap Freeze and Overload was an exploit.

Because

1. Snap freeze shouldn't be able to prime shielded/armored/barriered targets
2. The Cryo Explosion does twice as much damage as it should.

Snap freeze is the most bugged power in the game. I haven't played the Paladin in months because of that. Too bad, I really liked the class.

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?
and yes we are aware it does double damage but since CEs are the weaktes it kinda evens it out with FEs and BEs now

[Beeno4Life]

Feneckus wrote...

Beeno4Life wrote...

I missed the part where using Snap Freeze and Overload was an exploit.

Because

1. Snap freeze shouldn't be able to prime shielded/armored/barriered targets
2. The Cryo Explosion does twice as much damage as it should.

Snap freeze is the most bugged power in the game. I haven't played the Paladin in months because of that. Too bad, I really liked the class.

How does one go about setting off CEs then, if chilled targets can't be detonated? And the evo to increase CE damage is bugged, so it evens out.

[Feneckus]

upinya slayin wrote...

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?

Because Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast don't do that.

I don't know if it's a bug, but if it's not, it's cheap as ****.

[unclemonster]

Cyonan wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Agree but they should rebalance this in future efforts. 

Given that it would mean making everything a bullet sponge, I can't say that I entirely agree that it should happen.

Agreed, we have what we have, and it is an amazing game.
These are things for the devs to consider in ME4.

[unclemonster]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?

Because Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast don't do that.

I don't know if it's a bug, but if it's not, it's cheap as ****.

it's because cryo ammo and cryo blast don't do damage.
Only a power/ammo that does damage can be detonated (like snap freeze)
if they even did "1" on damage they could be detonated

Modifié par unclemonster, 10 janvier 2013 - 08:24 .

[HolyAvenger]

Cyonan wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Agree but they should rebalance this in future efforts. 

Given that it would mean making everything a bullet sponge, I can't say that I entirely agree that it should happen.

 

You could make certain enemies more immune to bullets/powers, making for attractive combos over simply spamming one or the other.