300 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?

Because Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast don't do that.

I don't know if it's a bug, but if it's not, it's cheap as ****.

Complains about teamwork not being as efficient as lone wolfing.

Calls one of the best(if not the best) example of teamwork being efficient in the game cheap.

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?

Because Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast don't do that.

I don't know if it's a bug, but if it's not, it's cheap as ****.

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

[Arctican]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

why shouldn't a chilled target get primed?

Because Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast don't do that.

I don't know if it's a bug, but if it's not, it's cheap as ****.

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

[GallowsPole]

 Intelligent use of game mechanics. 

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

Complains about teamwork not being as efficient as lone wolfing.

Calls one of the best(if not the best) example of teamwork being efficient in the game cheap.

Thinks Tactical Cloak is fine.

Thinks Snap Freeze is not cheap.

Why am I not surprised ? 

[AkuIaTubShark]

Feneckus wrote...

No, it's not a thread about infiltrators/balance, although it could have been.

-snip-

I was actually expecting to see that, glad it wasn't that though. 

[Feneckus]

upinya slayin wrote...

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

I'm fine with unique abilities. But snap freeze :

- Goes through walls
- Cannot be dodged
- Affects multiple enemies
- Does damage
- Primes absolutely everything
- Does double damage when detonated
- Freezes phantoms

Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

Arctican wrote...

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

If it could prime health and armor, no.

If it could primes shields and barriers as well, yes. Incendiary ammo can't do that.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Complains about teamwork not being as efficient as lone wolfing.

Calls one of the best(if not the best) example of teamwork being efficient in the game cheap.

Thinks Tactical Cloak is fine.

Thinks Snap Freeze is not cheap.

Why am I not surprised ? 

Attacking my personal opinion on Tactical Cloak instead of actually saying anything relevant to the point I was making.

That's cute, but it doesn't address my point.

Do you also happen to consider Area Reave cheating?

[lightswitch]

Can you add Recon Mine spam to the list of powers which frustrate everyone else's efforts to shoot things? The only reason it's not as bad as Shockwave is the longer cooldown.

[upinya slayin]

Feneckus wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

thats like saying the cryo shield shouldn't freeze pahntoms and its a bug because SF, CB, and CR don't?
can't a power have unique abilities?

I'm fine with unique abilities. But snap freeze :

- Goes through walls
- Cannot be dodged
- Affects multiple enemies
- Does damage
- Primes absolutely everything
- Does double damage when detonated
- Freezes phantoms

Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

Arctican wrote...

Would you consider Cryo Ammo and Cryo Blast cheap if it can prime chilled targets?

If it could prime health and armor, no.

If it could primes shields and barriers as well, yes. Incendiary ammo can't do that.

the damage is pretty small, the double damage is a bug but you'll get it with the right spec anyway, and it doesnt freeze phantoms?

[Dark Tlaloc]

lightswitch wrote...

Can you add Recon Mine spam to the list of powers which frustrate everyone else's efforts to shoot things? The only reason it's not as bad as Shockwave is the longer cooldown.

Hey! Stay away from my Recon Mine!!!!


*spams away*

[TheThirdRace]

HolyAvenger wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I get your point but some of this can be solved in the lobby by making sure teams have good synergy and complimentary powers.

That's my freaking problem with this game. You should be able to play whatever character you want without worrying about penalizing your teammates. It's fine if I don't synergize with them, but why the hell would I penalize them because my powers compete with theirs?

I disagree. The game should reward synergy and punish the lack thereof.

I disagree. The game should reward synergy and stop there. Why?

A player together has a base damage output.

4 players not playing together should each be able to deal their own base damage output.

4 players playing as a team should see an increase in damage output created by synergies.

It makes no sense whatsoever that your powers produce less damage because there's more players with you. The synergies should come from 2 players combining their powers to produce explosions faster, the base damage output should never be touched.

For example, a lone Adept can do a biotic explosion every 5 seconds and lets say that the biotic explosion does 5k damage. That Adept has a base damage output of 1k/second. Now, take 2 Adepts that combine their powers and you get twice as much explosions in the same time. They now have a 2k/second damage output. The real benefit is that the lone Adept must wait 5 seconds to dispatch the enemy while the duo can do it twice as fast and move on to the next target. That is the real synergy.

What I'm saying is the team should be better than the sum of its parts, but its parts shouldn't be less than they are because there's more than 1...

[Cyonan]

lightswitch wrote...

Can you add Recon Mine spam to the list of powers which frustrate everyone else's efforts to shoot things? The only reason it's not as bad as Shockwave is the longer cooldown.

I don't find it nearly as bad as the screen shake that Shockwave gives off.

Plus, it at least does good damage unlike Shockwave.

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

Attacking my personal opinion on Tactical Cloak instead of actually saying anything relevant to the point I was making.

That's cute, but it doesn't address my point.

Do you also happen to consider Area Reave cheating?

? Why the hell would I consider Area Reave cheating ?

Anyway, I explained why I thought Snap Freeze was cheap in the post above yours. It's even cheaper than warp+incendiary ammo IMO. Unless you have a Reegar of course. 

upinya slayin wrote...

the damage is pretty small, the double damage is a bug but you'll get it with the right spec anyway, and it doesnt freeze phantoms?

It doesn't ? Unshielded phantoms ? Maybe I got it mixed up with Cryo Shield. Like I said, it's been a while since I've played that class because I don't like exploiting cheap glitches.

Modifié par Feneckus, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[Origin]

Harting-EN wrote...

above me in the scoreboard

This is the problem. Synergy is possible but unlikely while the score is what counts for some of the players. And the challenge system is making it worse because it is focused on the player not on the team.

[Krzysztof Wilczynski]

It's supposed to be a co-op game, but the truth is, 4 lone wolves will almost always be more efficient than a 4-man team working together. Even worse, some kits are better off staying the **** away from others.

There is also the "I am better than Chuck Norris and I will kill 'em all myself, loosers" element that often you seen when playing. This started to happen on Gold games too, where youngsters roam around just to die -- there is nothing more irritiating that entire team that does not listen, keeps on dying, does not use gel nor missines, and ALWAYS runs into the room where two Geth Prime units decided to wander into. Go figure ...

Said that, there are also bugs that are super annoying but Bioware is not doing anything with them... And then there is the game mechanica which is super irritating i.e. I persoinally HATE automatica cover grabbing thing to the bone. Got me killed so many times. I wish there was option to disable this and biotic special effects -- plus, a way to remotely stun Vorcha Flamer users

Anyway, a +1 to everything you've said

KW

[Happy Shepard]

It's true that you are most effective with 4 Lone Wolfs. Which doesn't mean it's not effective to play as a team with synergy.

And my personal experience with PUGs or coordinated teams is, when i decide to play a rather supportive role instead of choosing my best DPS class, the match may be a bit slower but it's less likely to be a game where i have to solo 2/3 waves or we wipe.

[TheThirdRace]

Lathlaer wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I get your point but some of this can be solved in the lobby by making sure teams have good synergy and complimentary powers.

That's my freaking problem with this game. You should be able to play whatever character you want without worrying about penalizing your teammates. It's fine if I don't synergize with them, but why the hell would I penalize them because my powers compete with theirs?

I disagree. The game should reward synergy and punish the lack thereof.

+1 HolyAvenger

You have to synergize tactics when you fight (for example, spawns, rocket usage). You can afford not doing this but it will cost you some effort and/or consumables. But you absolutely must cooperate when doing objectives. Otherwise when I'm running to do a hack and someone kills a pyro, this pyro might as well respawn close to me, preventing me to finish objectives.

When the game requires synergy in those points, why shouldn't it require synergy when it comes to choosing powers?

Because it's yet again another point against powers while guns suffer from nothing in this game.

The problem isn't the synergies, it's the unnecessary penalties that comes from it. Playing alone, I do 6200 damage on armor in Platinum in 5 seconds. Playing with an Overload freak messes with my BE and I do less damage. Real synergies would be that I keep doing 6200 damage on armor in 5 seconds, but if the other guy's an Adept too, we can combine our powers and do that 6200 damage ever 2.5 seconds instead. Thus, we kill enemies twice as fast, they are half as much a treat as they were when I was solo and they have less chance to surround us because we play as a team. Damage should never be touched, that's freaking retard!

[Sabbatine]

NavySEALCommand wrote...

Sabbatine wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Wouldn't it be nice if the best possible team was 4 guys working together, creating combos left and right, one guy's strengths being another's weakness or something like that ? Instead, it's 4 GIs who happen to be on the same map. Meh. 

Is this honestly how you see the game?  Have you even played it these last few months?

That is honestly how the game should be played, not trying to Rambo it.

Who are you to say how the game "should" be played...?  Isn't the entire single player campaign (where most learn to play before playing multiplayer) Shepard ramboing it?

Some people prefer to rambo it and do so in lower difficulties.  Others prefer more team play and do so in premades or on higher difficulties.  There is of course a certain amount of overlap like rambos in gold and platinum and team players in bronze and silver.

That aside though, you missed my ephasis.  I can't remember the last time I landed in a game with 4 geth infiltrators... in fact I don't think it ever happened even when GI's were at the height of their popularity.  No one who has current knowledge of the game would use that as an example.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[Feneckus]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I get your point but some of this can be solved in the lobby by making sure teams have good synergy and complimentary powers.

It's not as simple as that.

For example, a Vorcha/melee Krogan will NEVER have synergy with other teammates. They need to be away from their teammates so they can get kills for their bloodlust/rage.

Besides, there's no way to be able to tell someone's build in the lobby. If I see a Slayer, does he have Biotic Slash ? Does he use a lot ? If he's spamming phase disruptor + biotic charge I can take a weapon class. If he's spamming Biotic Slash then I'm screwed.

Same thing with Destroyers. I might think he specced out of Hawk Missiles so I take a power class, and then I'm screwed when I find out he did spec into them and we end up vs Cerberus. Sure, it's my fault, I should have been on the safe side and picked a weapon class, but what if I don't want to play one ? How the hell does it make sense that this Destroyer can f'ck up a team's DPS because of his powers ?

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

? Why the hell would I consider Area Reave cheating ?

Anyway, I explained why I thought Snap Freeze was cheap in the post above yours. It's even cheaper than warp+incendiary ammo IMO. Unless you have a Reegar of course. 

Feneckus wrote...
Cryo Blast can't do all that. So in my book, it's cheap. Hell, even if it just had the "primes everything" ability, I would still consider it cheating.

You're sort of giving me the impression that you think giving something the "primes everything" trait makes it cheating, and Reave shares a lot more of your list than Cryo Blast does, including being able to prime multiple enemies at once with the Area evolution.

The only thing it doesn't do is 100% more combo damage, which is a bug(unless you spec it that way) and goes through walls, which is hardly much of a downside when Reave can hit from across the map unlike Snap Freeze.

[Feneckus]

Reave is a biotic power. It's supposed to prime everything. And BEs do little damage to shields/health.

Snap freeze is a tech power. The closest power in the game can only prime health. Other tech powers can prime everything but tech bursts do pitiful damage vs armor and health and you can't trigger fire explosions vs shields/barriers. But snap freeze + chain overload annihilates everything.

Two very different things.

[Deerber]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I disagree. The game should reward synergy and stop there. Why?

A player together has a base damage output.

4 players not playing together should each be able to deal their own base damage output.

4 players playing as a team should see an increase in damage output created by synergies.

It makes no sense whatsoever that your powers produce less damage because there's more players with you. The synergies should come from 2 players combining their powers to produce explosions faster, the base damage output should never be touched.

For example, a lone Adept can do a biotic explosion every 5 seconds and lets say that the biotic explosion does 5k damage. That Adept has a base damage output of 1k/second. Now, take 2 Adepts that combine their powers and you get twice as much explosions in the same time. They now have a 2k/second damage output. The real benefit is that the lone Adept must wait 5 seconds to dispatch the enemy while the duo can do it twice as fast and move on to the next target. That is the real synergy.

What I'm saying is the team should be better than the sum of its parts, but its parts shouldn't be less than they are because there's more than 1...

TheThirdRace wrote...

Because it's yet again another point against powers while guns suffer from nothing in this game.

The problem isn't the synergies, it's the unnecessary penalties that comes from it. Playing alone, I do 6200 damage on armor in Platinum in 5 seconds. Playing with an Overload freak messes with my BE and I do less damage. Real synergies would be that I keep doing 6200 damage on armor in 5 seconds, but if the other guy's an Adept too, we can combine our powers and do that 6200 damage ever 2.5 seconds instead. Thus, we kill enemies twice as fast, they are half as much a treat as they were when I was solo and they have less chance to surround us because we play as a team. Damage should never be touched, that's freaking retard!

I think you summed things pretty well. I completely agree on what you said.


One little thing about the last example you provided: I think the real sinergy would be if together you could dish out 6200 damage in less than 2.5 seconds. Doing that in 2.5 seconds would be pretty much the same as doing that both by yourselves. It would be amazing if you could do better than is you both were by yourselves. Am I being clear?

It would be awesome if, say, there were certain power evolutions (hopefully a good lot of them) that boosted the effectiveness of the whole team. Right now, the only things that do that are debuffs. But it's not that they really boost the team's effectiveness, they rather make the enemies take more damage. One could argue that they're the same things, but what I'd really love to see are power evolutions which give, say, "+15% recharge speed to all biotic powers of teammates in 5 m". Stuff like that. A lot of those evolutions. That would change things.


Think about it: in the end, almost every power evolution in this game only does something for the power/player himself. Not for teammates. What the next ME effort needs are all those wonderful team-wide evolutions from SP (miranda in ME2, anyone? Liara in ME3? Stuff like that) added to multiplayer as well. That's what we need. That's what I call teamplay. 

Modifié par Deerber, 10 janvier 2013 - 09:50 .

[LoonySpectre]

Reave can be detonated only with other biotic powers. Unlike Snap Freeze, which is detonated with basically anything from BC and Warp to Incinerate and Overload to Concussive Shot and Havoc Strike.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

Reave is a biotic power. It's supposed to prime everything. And BEs do little damage to shields/health.

Snap freeze is a tech power. The closest power in the game can only prime health. Other tech powers can prime everything but tech bursts do pitiful damage vs armor and health and you can't trigger fire explosions vs shields/barriers. But snap freeze + chain overload annihilates everything.

Two very different things.

Going for damage numbers eh? I do love my numbers.

Biotic Explosion Base Damage: 100-250. Does 2x damage to barriers and armour, and 1x to shields/health.

Cryo Explosion Base Damage: 75-200. Does 1x to everything.

Snap Freeze appears to annihilate everything because you're doing 3 Cryo Explosions at 200% damage, not because Cryo Explosions actually have any semblance of being overpowered.

If Reave had a 100% increased BE bug or evo, it would be doing the same thing.