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[wby87]

Uploaded V5.zip.
------------------------------
http://social.biowar...m/project/1636/

This guide is my attempt at theorycrafting the optimal Cunning based dagger-wielding rogue. I hope the guide can help you when it comes to questions about rogue's attribute, skill, talent, and gear progression. I used Excel as my sandbox to work on the guide.
------------------------------
A couple points about the guide:
1. This guide really focuses on the allocation of a few talent points or attributes. This may irritate you.
2. This guide contains spoilers (minimum) and should not be used for first playthroughs.
3. I'd appreciate if you find inconsistencies in the guide and comment on them.
------------------------------
This guide has two purposes:
1. Introduce the most powerful party-based rogue (highest DMG, maximized talent, skills and utilities).
2. Optimize the rogue throughout progression, so you do not have to make decisions at every step.

The first goal has been achieved by many theorycraft threads; this guide merely adds some details.

Consider this guide an auto-level button. Some people want more control over their character; others hate making mistakes leveling up and regretting them later. This guide is for the later group.
------------------------------
A list of all the bonuses the rogue will get in game:

There are 76 (90) Attribute points from leveling and quest rewards (excluding the Con bonus from the slaver's Blood Magic reward, as it prevents the rogue from getting a Skill tome). There are also 21 Attribute points From Fade bonus, 2 Dex from Assassin, and 2 Will, 1 Cun from Bard.

There are 20 (21) Skill points total; 3 from tomes, 1 from quest rewards (Redcliffe), and 16 from leveling.

And there are 32 Talent points total at Level 24; 4 from tomes, 2 from quest reward (Gray Warden and Landsmeet), and 26 from leveling.

These are the bonuses I worked with when building the rogue. Please let me know if I missed anything.
------------------------------
The Excel file (V5.zip) lays out every progression order and assumptions nicely; here is an overview of the Excel file.
Human Rogue/Assassin/Bard

Attribute Progression
17 points invested Dex: 9 near the beginning, 8 at the end. 36 Dex total for talent requirements
Rest of points in Cunning
Final Attributes
Str    Dex    Wil    Magic    Cun    Con
15    38       18     13          91       12 (Specializations' bonuses included)
23    56       29     19          102     18 (after gear bonuses)

Talents Progression
Dirty Fighting
Dual-Weapon Training
Dual-Weapon Sweep
Dual Striking
Stealth
Combat Movement
Below the Belt
Stealthy Item Use
Flurry
Momentum
Deadly Strike
Lethality
Combat Stealth
Coup de Grace
Riposte
Mark of Death
Dual-Weapon Finesse
Exploit Weakness
Master Stealth
Song of Valor
Distraction
Song of Courage
Lacerate
Feast of the Fallen
Cripple
Punisher
Dual-Weapon Expert
Whirlwind
Dual-Weapon Mastery
Evasion
Feign Death
Captivating Song

Quick note: if you don't mind missing a couple locked chests during Ostagar, or "wasting" a talent point in Deft Hands, put 9 attribute points into Dex early in the game to get Momentum at Level 3. This will increases your DPS by 43% during Ostagar.

Skill Progression
Combat Training 1
Combat Training 2
Poison-Making 1
Coercion 1
Coercion 2
Coercion 3
Trap-Making 1
Stealing 1
Combat Training 3
Survival 1
Survival 2
Survival 3
Survival 4
Combat Training 4
Poison-Making 2
Poison-Making 3
Poison-Making 4
Trap-Making 2
Trap-Making 3
Trap-Making 4
Coercion 4

Gear Selection
Rose's Thorn
Thorn of the Dead Gods (Duncan's Dagger, The Edge, Dead Thaig Shanker)
Helm of Honnleath
Felon's Coat
Red Jenny Seekers
Cadash Stompers (Silverhammer's Tackmasters)
Andruil's Blessing
The Spellward (Magister's Shield, Blood-Gorged Amulet)
Key to the City
Dusk Ring (Wicked Oath, Harvest Festival Ring)

Plot Progression
Origin
Ostagar
Lothering
WK DLC
SP DLC
RTO DLC
Denerim (part)
Orzammar (part)
Broken Circle
Paragon of Her Kind
Arl of Redcliffe
Urn of Sacred Ashes
Nature of the Beast
The Landsmeet
The Final Onslaught
------------------------------
The Optimal Talent Progression tab in the Excel file is Cunning rogue's ideal talent progression. Key talents are vital for the build; useful talents will improve combat experience somewhat; and filler talents are not used under most circumstances.

However, I assume the rogue values the filler talents more than 6 points of extra Cunning. If not, you can stop at 30 Dex and take on Arrow of Slaying and Scattering Shots.

Attribute, level, and other restrictions force the rogue to take less useful talents when the key ones are not available. The result is the talent progression I list above.
------------------------------
Credits to these excellent threads by Discobird for theorycrafting the optimal build, gear selection, and mechanics explanations. If you find anything not explained in my guide, you will most likely find answers in these threads.
http://social.biowar...66/index/223777
http://social.biowar...66/index/243304

Modifié par wby87, 24 janvier 2010 - 07:46 .

[Titius.Vibius]

You do realize by the end of your optimization, the story has ended. Come on don't be so preoccupied with creating guides like this, its only a game and has an ending too. *peace*

[Stormstrider32]

Titius.Vibius wrote...

You do realize by the end of your optimization, the story has ended. Come on don't be so preoccupied with creating guides like this, its only a game and has an ending too. *peace*

Simply because you don't find this post interesting or of value does not mean you should respond this way.  It is rather rude.  The beautiful thing about the game is you can play it through any way you want.  If you want to optimize a character because that is fun for you then fine.  If it isn't your idea of fun then fine too.  Whatever works for you is great just don't push it on others.  Its not nice.

[Titius.Vibius]

Stormstrider32 wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

You do realize by the end of your optimization, the story has ended. Come on don't be so preoccupied with creating guides like this, its only a game and has an ending too. *peace*

Simply because you don't find this post interesting or of value does not mean you should respond this way.  It is rather rude.  The beautiful thing about the game is you can play it through any way you want.  If you want to optimize a character because that is fun for you then fine.  If it isn't your idea of fun then fine too.  Whatever works for you is great just don't push it on others.  Its not nice.

Its just a game, don't get so worked up so much about it. Perhaps I was rash in saying that statement but its true, it has an ending and by the time the character has been optimized the game has already ended, what's the point? You can do whatever you want with all your skills and points why bother following a guide that has been created by another person. Would you like them to play the game for you too while you sit on a corner and watch?

[AL_Gordi]

agree with Storm, i think you made a great job wby, with all that warnings and so on. i find it as precise as possible. and another thing; just because the first comment is the rude one, you dont have to think that nobody likes your work.

greetings

[Valaryan]

Okay - I'm playing through second time on Nightmare as Dwarf Rogue - rogues are sick for the end boss. The glory in theorycrafting the ideal of perfect rogue types is that at the end, if you're careful, you can SOLO the boss with your rogue. On Nightmare.



The story ends - but the glory lives on. Nightmare Archdemon utterly slain by lone Dwarven Princess? Glory. And not attainable if you haven't carefully crafted your character.

[dkjestrup]

Considering you can solo the game with any character (well, I haven't seen a warrior archer, and Shapeshifter is so bad that it doesn't deserve to count), it's not really a big deal to be able to solo the archdemon with a well built rogue.



Some comments though.



Firstly, you should always get Momentum ASAP. On a Human Noble, that's by level 3 I believe. The only Dual Wield skill you really need is Momentum, you'll be auto-attacking most of the time.



Also, realize that 99% of players will want lockpicking. With just one rank of lockpicking, you can open every chest up until you get Leliana.

[krsboss]

you get +1 talent for successfully joining the Grey Wardens at Ostagar and +1 skill for reviving Arl Eamon...not sure if there are any other 'free' bonuses!

[Illwillsam]

Appreciate the effort put into the post and I like the level by level directions, especially the earlier level talents you chose.

But, why max out coercion?

I can certainly see putting more than 1 point in it for the earlier levels, maybe even 3, but why 4 when you have so much cunning to pad your score?

According to this http://social.biowar...66/index/243304 and your own numbers by the end of the game you wont need more than 1 point in coercion.

Also to dkjes above, while I like Momentum as a person who is building a low level rogue right now (and got it as soon as possible), I can see why he chose the talent build he did. I am no DAO pro by any stretch, but right now I am in Lothering (on Hard) and am having a hard time, especially with the bandits. I lack the conroll to manage incoming damage on Alistair as he takes a lot of it, and can definitely see the reason for his build.

As a side note wtf is with Morgan's spells? Her default choices when you get her are pretty terrible, a shotgun approach that is 1 spell short of  the most usefull spells in that line . I am really tempted to "cheat" and respec her. Before now I have always been a mage so I could make up for it but damn now that I'm making a rogue it really sucks.

Modifié par Illwillsam, 22 janvier 2010 - 02:43 .

[Silensfurtim]

ive done this progression before. its the most satisfying of all my playthroughs. few differences though. I use Silverhammers Tackmasters boots and Wicked Oath ring. and yes, Momentum must be a priority above anything else.

the CUN Rogue is more of progression to Godhood. unlike other classes where youre already overpowered before mid game. I think CUN Rogue will be great when used in future expansion, dlc and maybe the sequel.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:59 .

[soteria]

Feign Death before Whirlwind? Really? Really? I can't even find a use for Feign Death....



I don't know why people hate Morrigan's initial spells so much. Yes, she is one spell away from a lot of great ones. That means when you get her, you have a lot of good options. Force Field, Cone of Cold, Sleep, Heal...

[LightSabres]

dkjestrup wrote...

Firstly, you should always get Momentum ASAP. On a Human Noble, that's by level 3 I believe. The only Dual Wield skill you really need is Momentum, you'll be auto-attacking most of the time.

Momentum should be the 3rd talent you get.  + 43% more damage is HUGE!

IF you get it later than third it's because you want to pick locks and / or stealth first....

[Joshd21]

I have a website as well, this is a quote from the website

"A point that someone made earlier - the game states that the dexterity
stat governs damage on bows and daggers. My archer rogue with high dex.
at the end of the game did more damage than the two next highest damage
dealers of my party combined. High dex. also means you won't be getting
hit ever. For a melee rogue, taking the lethality talent and sticking
with daggers provides for the fastest attack rates and highest damage
(I know a brawler-type rogue with high strength wielding dual axes or
what have you does a lot of damage, but those points put in strength
are points better served in dex and cunning).

So, I would say stat wise -

Get
strength to 20 after the mages tower's free increases to equip
drakeskin light armor such as the Shadow of the empire or Felon's coat
(22 to equip the ancient elven armor which is pretty good for an
archer).
MAX out dex to ~50 and then cunning if you are an archer and vice versa if you are a melee rogue.
Get con to around 15 willpower to around 20 and leave magic stat alone."

IIf this information is true and it does Max out at about 50, then anything above that is useless. Not to kick a gift in the mouth but your guide is a bit flawed I assume. You should max out Dex, and yeah..

[wby87]

A clarification on Momentum, since it has been brought up a couple times.

It is largely my personal preference that prevented me from getting Momentum at Level 3: I do not want to spend talent points in Deft Hands tree, and I want to open all chests in Ostagar. I consider doing these two things a part of the optimal build.

There are 2 chests in the Tower that rewards 20xp, requiring 30+ Cunning. So the earliest time a rogue with 30 Cunning can acquire Momentum would be Level 7, right after Ostagar.

With that being said, it is very possible to ignore the 2 locked chests, or to "waste" a talent point on Deft Hands and acquire Momentum at Level 3, a 40 some percent increase in DPS.

However, in my play through (on Nightmare), I was hitting 10 to 13 every swing during Ostagar, which makes me wonder if adding another 4 to 5 to that number really matters this early in the game. I also find combats before Lothering and DLCs to be trivial, as I had much less trouble in the Tower of Ishal than say, Warden's Keep (the last summoning fights required chain-potting).

On taking Coercion: there are no useful skills early in the game. Taking Coercion allows the rogue to pass every Persuade check with 100 Cunning, starting at level 2. Of course much of it is overkill. Alternatively, maxing out Combat Training provides a small benefit for the tougher fights early in Lothering and DLC.

On taking Feign Death before Whirlwind: I originally had doubts about whether I can reach Level 23. I also forgot to count talent bonus from Landsmeet. Whirlwind requires 2 extra Dex at that time, therefore I left it as the last talent to pick, as Dex does not scale as well as Cun. Now with 2 extra talents to spent on fillers, neither problem matters.

On gears: I have the 360 version and do not have access to the Wicked Oath ring. It is better than the Dusk ring by large. Also I never had much problem with threats, so I kept using Cadash Stompers for the filler bonuses. If you have the collector's edition, the 3 attribute points from the tomes goes to Cunning as well.

Modifié par wby87, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:47 .

[Joshd21]

wby87 wrote...

A clarification on Momentum, since it has been brought up a couple times.

It is largely my personal preference that prevented me from getting Momentum at Level 3: I do not want to spend talent points in Deft Hands tree, and I want to open all chests in Ostagar. I consider doing these two things a part of the optimal build.

There are 2 chests in the Tower that rewards 20xp, requiring 30+ Cunning. So the earliest time a rogue with 30 Cunning can acquire Momentum would be Level 7, right after Ostagar.

With that being said, it is very possible to ignore the 2 locked chests, or to "waste" a talent point on Deft Hands and acquire Momentum at Level 3, a 40 some percent increase in DPS.

However, in my play through (on Nightmare), I was hitting 10 to 13 every swing during Ostagar, which makes me wonder if adding another 4 to 5 to that number really matters this early in the game. I also find combats before Lothering and DLCs to be trivial, as I had much less trouble in the Tower of Ishal than say, Warden's Keep (the last summoning fights required chain-potting).

On taking Coercion: there are no useful skills early in the game. Taking Coercion allows the rogue to pass every Persuade check with 100 Cunning, starting at level 2. Of course much of it is overkill. Alternatively, maxing out Combat Training provides a small benefit for the tougher fights early in Lothering and DLC.

Though why waste a talent in Coercion. Coerciron is Pursade and Inimdate is based off cunning. To my information unless I am mistaken, they are two different things based off two different talents. However I may be wrong.

Though I'm informed you only need Max 50 Dex and 15 strength, along with 40-50 cunning. I am not sure but based on the information I found anything above 50 is a waste because you are already maxing out. Though I would suggest lock picking

Because it provides experience each time you do it. I would not advise using stealth as it's four talent points and max it gains you is the ablity to stand behind a person, something you could do in combat.

Also feign death, I found was not much use to me. You seemed like you were dead and they left you alone for a moment. Can be usefull with many attackers around though I found it to not be doing much.

You can take indimate instead of pursude and save your talent specs, instead put them into Lock Picking or Pick Pocking, Lock Picking allows you at end of game to load the thing that fires at the dragon when it Jams

edited, also I found two talent specs are Assassin and Dulist, max out Assassin

Modifié par Joshd21, 22 janvier 2010 - 10:29 .

[wby87]

Joshd21: I think you'll find many of your questions answered after a rogue play through.

On party composition: I used a tank, Morrigan, and one filler for the game. I listed Morrigan's spell choices in V3.zip. Most of them are crowd control and buffing magics, take a look if you are having trouble. More mages always make combat easier.

On Lothering, DLC tough encounters: I used traps and bombs to pass these areas, they were quite useful. Kiting works as always.

On Cunning rogue's hitting and defense: my attack was 142 with party buffs at the end. Revenants were difficult to hit in front. I do not recall seeing excessive misses for any other bosses.

My defense was 120, I had no trouble wearing Cadash stompers and using Riposite and Coup de Grace (the lazy way) in the midst of a large crowd, starting middle game.

Hope these helps your playthrough experience.

Modifié par wby87, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:51 .

[Joshd21]

wby87 wrote...

Joshd21: I think you'll find many of your questions answered after a rogue play through.

On party composition: I used a tank, Morrigan, and one filler for the game. I listed Morrigan's spell choices in V3.zip. Most of them are crowd control and buffing magics, take a look if you are having trouble.

On Lothering, DLC tough encounters: I used traps and bombs to pass these areas, they were quite useful.

On Cunning rogue's hitting and defense: my attack was around 120 with party buffs at the end. Revenants were difficult to hit in front, but I think moving to the back still gave me the attack bonus even through they can't be backstabbed. I am not very certain about this. I do not recall seeing excessive misses for any other bosses.

My defense was around 110 IIRC, I had no trouble wearing Cadash stompers and using Riposite and Coup de Grace (the lazy way) in the midst of a large crowed starting middle game.

Hope these helps your playthrough experience.

I have played through on a rogue, though my profile is not updating it. Though clearly you can see the achivement. I'm not saying your guide is bad, however everyones play playstyle is different. Though I think it's a waste to max it past 50.

I am just saying the same is not that complex to follow a complete set up guide. Though it's interesting what you point out but honestly they are not that many stages in the game, most people like in Mass Effect 2 will play with it and see how it goes

Then search internet for a good build, everyones thoughts are different but some of your advice is helpfull. However I think it's too detailed, you don't have to hit "Max dps" to be able to have a nice good experience through the game. Though it's up to you, to pick pocker, to opening locks, its your personal thought on which is best

[wby87]

Joshd21:
Don't take that I'm offended in anyways. I just find some of your questions a bit simple; I think these links will answer most of your questions:
http://social.biowar...66/index/223777
http://social.biowar...66/index/243304
http://dragonage.wik...Dragon_Age_Wiki

Here is a few answers to the best of my knowledge:
The most difficult locks in DA:O requires 70 cunning to open. Each rank in Deft Hands tree increase your chance to pick locks by 10 Cunning points. Thus with a Cunning build, all of the talent points spent here are wasted starting middle game.

Dex does not scale as well as Cun according to theorycraft. Therefore the rogue only need to bring it to 36 for the sole purpose of talent requirement. I assume the rogue values the filler talents more than 12 points of extra Cunning. Otherwise you can stop at 24 Dex for Momentum and take on Archery, Deft Hands, etc.

The Rogue does not need to spend any points in Str. Fade bonus will bring it up to 15 and gear will take care of rest.

Coercion is a Skill, not a talent.

Theorycraft suggests Bard is better than Duelist at pure backstabbing, starting mid-late game.

And lastly, this guide really focus on the allocation of a few talent points or attributes for minimum benefits. This may irritate some people.

[Shade00X]

I prefer to take my main (Rogue) as Assassin/Duelist and take Leliana along as wel(Bard/Ranger... Ranger mainly for fun).... I think this maximizes the damage your rogue will do. (I build both as Cunning builds, although my rogue I'm running as Dex/Cunning mix right now)

[wby87]

Shade00X wrote...

I prefer to take my main (Rogue) as Assassin/Duelist and take Leliana along as wel(Bard/Ranger... Ranger mainly for fun).... I think this maximizes the damage your rogue will do. (I build both as Cunning builds, although my rogue I'm running as Dex/Cunning mix right now)

Role-playing aside, Songs of Courage stacks with each other. Running 2 Cunning rogues will benfit both.

Modifié par wby87, 23 janvier 2010 - 01:14 .

[Shade00X]

Do three Songs of courage stack? If they don't maybe I'll make Zevran an Assassin/Bard, Leliana a Bard/Ranger and my main an Assassin/Duelist hehe... would be interesting to play a three rogue party. One Mage for Healing/CC

[DAO Lemon]

are the talents/skills listed in the order they should be obtained?

[wby87]

DAO Lemon wrote...

are the talents/skills listed in the order they should be obtained?

The list is in the order they should be obtained, given the attribute and level constraints, as well as the plot progression order, which affects when certain quest rewards and purchasable tomes are obtained. I do believe the order is optimal, however taking Momentum at Level 7 is controversal. Take a look at the Excel file for more details.

The Excel file also contains a optimal progression tab. If you simply want to know which talents are more useful and should be taken first, or if you want different plot progression, this talent list is more useful.

Skills progression are much more flexible and less important in combat. Coercion and Combat Training are generally good picks, while Poison, Trap Making, Stealing (rank 1),and Survival are used for quests and provides some utility. Herbalism and Tactics are just about useless for the rogue. You can argue Poison and Trap Making beyond rank 1 are useless too in a party setting. But those 6 skill points has to go somewhere, and these two talents seem fitting for a rogue.

Modifié par wby87, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .

[luciensan]

Did you really upload Version 4 (V4.zip)? Can only find V3 on the project page. Anyway, appreciate your work!

[wby87]

luciensan wrote...

Did you really upload Version 4 (V4.zip)? Can only find V3 on the project page. Anyway, appreciate your work!

Thanks for point that out. I did not notice the hidden setting for files.