38 réponses à ce sujet

[Aathis]

dkjestrup wrote...

Also, realize that 99% of players will want lockpicking. With just one rank of lockpicking, you can open every chest up until you get Leliana.

Just a small point, but in my game I had one rank in lockpicking and met chests I could not open in the Tower of Ishal!!
Was I doing something wrong?

[wby87]

Aathis wrote...

dkjestrup wrote...

Also, realize that 99% of players will want lockpicking. With just one rank of lockpicking, you can open every chest up until you get Leliana.

Just a small point, but in my game I had one rank in lockpicking and met chests I could not open in the Tower of Ishal!!
Was I doing something wrong?

Your Cunning was lower than 20 at the time. 20 Cunning + 1 Deft Hands, or 30 Cunning will pass the checks.

[dkjestrup]

By the way, whoever said that Dex and Cun max out at 50, that's flat out wrong. They continue to give identical bonuses above and below 50, or any number, there is no cap.



I still think one point in lockpicking is worth it. Considering a cunning rogue only needs Riposte, Dual Wield Finesse, and Momentum from the Dual Wield tree, through most of the game.

[wby87]

A question about a Xbox 360 bug (I assume the same on PS3).

On the Xbox 360 version, whenever you use a tome, you'll gain an attribute point in addition to the tome's intended bonus. For example, if you use the Formari Tome, you'll gain 1 attribute 1 skill; If you use the Tome of Physical Technique, you'll gain 1 attribute and 1 talent. But if you use the Tome of the Mortal Vessel, you gain the intended 1 attribute only.

This happens with the 3 quest reward as well; you gain 1 attribute and 1 talent for Gray Warden and Landsmeet, and 1 attribute and 1 talent for Redcliffe. And when this happens during a standard level up, you'd get 4 attribute and 2 talents to distribute.

I read somewhere that the PC version does not have the tome bug. What about the quest reward?

[LightSabres]

wby87 wrote...

A clarification on Momentum, since it has been brought up a couple times.

It is largely my personal preference that prevented me from getting Momentum at Level 3: I do not want to spend talent points in Deft Hands tree, and I want to open all chests in Ostagar. I consider doing these two things a part of the optimal build.

There are 2 chests in the Tower that rewards 20xp, requiring 30+ Cunning. So the earliest time a rogue with 30 Cunning can acquire Momentum would be Level 7, right after Ostagar.

With that being said, it is very possible to ignore the 2 locked chests, or to "waste" a talent point on Deft Hands and acquire Momentum at Level 3, a 40 some percent increase in DPS.

However, in my play through (on Nightmare), I was hitting 10 to 13 every swing during Ostagar, which makes me wonder if adding another 4 to 5 to that number really matters this early in the game. I also find combats before Lothering and DLCs to be trivial, as I had much less trouble in the Tower of Ishal than say, Warden's Keep (the last summoning fights required chain-potting).

On taking Coercion: there are no useful skills early in the game. Taking Coercion allows the rogue to pass every Persuade check with 100 Cunning, starting at level 2. Of course much of it is overkill. Alternatively, maxing out Combat Training provides a small benefit for the tougher fights early in Lothering and DLC.

On taking Feign Death before Whirlwind: I originally had doubts about whether I can reach Level 23. I also forgot to count talent bonus from Landsmeet. Whirlwind requires 2 extra Dex at that time, therefore I left it as the last talent to pick, as Dex does not scale as well as Cun. Now with 2 extra talents to spent on fillers, neither problem matters.

On gears: I have the 360 version and do not have access to the Wicked Oath ring. It is better than the Dusk ring by large. Also I never had much problem with threats, so I kept using Cadash Stompers for the filler bonuses. If you have the collector's edition, the 3 attribute points from the tomes goes to Cunning as well.

Oh it matters a great deal!  Getting Momentum by the time you get to the Ogre at the top of the Tower of Ishal makes the fight MUCH MUCH easier.

On my DW warrior playthrough I had quite a bit of trouble thanks to the fact that I didn't have momentum.

When I played it again with my DW rogue the fight was over shortly after it began.  I just locked down the ogre with stuns and proceeded to carve my initials over and over again in his back.  It was quite shocking how easily he went down.

[wby87]

If you can lock the Ogre down another 43% longer, less with party member, then you are good to go without Momentum. You'll get Momentum right after the Ogre too.

It is very much personal preference, 2 chests versus easier combat during Ostagar.

Modifié par wby87, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:32 .

[dkjestrup]

More saving one point in lockpicking versus easy combat in Ostagar.

[mav76]

Interesting guide. I went with a bit of a different build (especially in the Skills--I took just one in Poison and Traps to use them, and went for Stealing for the extra loot).



You might want to lay out what you would do without the 360 bug of getting C. Training II at the start, or not having the preorder (Formari Tome). Also, not everyone is going to have all the DLC in their game.



As to Deft Hands, besides allowing earlier Momentum without missing the Ishal chests, it will reduce the Cunning needed to unlock the hardest chests to 60. 2nd level in lockpicking will bring it down to 50. Assuming no 360 bug giving an extra stat point with the tomes, 70 cunning doesn't come until level 18, 60 is down to level 15, and 50 is at 12 (+cunning gear will help open the chests a little sooner too). So a level of Deft Hands or 2 will help hit those 60 exp chests earlier, and reduce the need for backtracking for exp and items from chests you couldn't get the first time through.



To make room for Deft Hands, take out Dual Striking (not very useful except as prereq). Reinsert Dual Striking into the progression just before Riposte, moving everything else back one step. Leave out Feign Death or the higher Dual Weapon mastery talents to make room for Deft Hands in the build. Having Deft Hands also allows you to pump up Dex for earlier Evasion/Whirlwind as soon as you get enough Cunning to open every chest.

[wby87]

mav76 wrote...

Interesting guide. I went with a bit of a different build (especially in the Skills--I took just one in Poison and Traps to use them, and went for Stealing for the extra loot).

You might want to lay out what you would do without the 360 bug of getting C. Training II at the start, or not having the preorder (Formari Tome). Also, not everyone is going to have all the DLC in their game.

As to Deft Hands, besides allowing earlier Momentum without missing the Ishal chests, it will reduce the Cunning needed to unlock the hardest chests to 60. 2nd level in lockpicking will bring it down to 50. Assuming no 360 bug giving an extra stat point with the tomes, 70 cunning doesn't come until level 18, 60 is down to level 15, and 50 is at 12 (+cunning gear will help open the chests a little sooner too). So a level of Deft Hands or 2 will help hit those 60 exp chests earlier, and reduce the need for backtracking for exp and items from chests you couldn't get the first time through.

To make room for Deft Hands, take out Dual Striking (not very useful except as prereq). Reinsert Dual Striking into the progression just before Riposte, moving everything else back one step. Leave out Feign Death or the higher Dual Weapon mastery talents to make room for Deft Hands in the build. Having Deft Hands also allows you to pump up Dex for earlier Evasion/Whirlwind as soon as you get enough Cunning to open every chest.

Skill are very much flexible, so I didn't bother to take out the extra Combat Training and Formari Tome. I'd suggest trade the early ranks of Coercion for Combat Training since rank 3 is overkill. Stealing mechanic is similar to lock-picking, you need 1 rank to get the skill and Cunning takes care of the rest.

The Xbox bonus attribute from tomes and quests all went to Cunning, so it should not change any of the talent orders.

How much Deft Hand helps is tricky to determine. The plot progresses with your level, but the chest difficulties doesn't. For example, there is one chest in the mage tower that requires 70 Cunnig. Many people get Fade bonus first, so most of they need to come back for that chest. The same goes for the Gnawed Noble Tavern chest.

I think your reasoning would be true if say, by the time you hit level 14, all chests difficulties scale and require 70 Cunning. But since the 5 main quest lines can be done in any order, the developers can only leave a couple harder chests near the end of each quest line.

I hit 70 Cunning with gears after defending Redcliffe village, which was my second main quest line (I've since switched the order because rogue benefits so much from Orzammar). And up to this point, I did not encounter any chest that I can't open besides the mage tower one. I do have 6 bonus Cunning from Xbox bug, so I'd say you can expect to open everything starting the 3rd main quest line.

As you've probably noticed, I am ridiculously defensive when arguing about "wasting" talents in Deft Hands. It is messy trying to figure out exactly which chests need 70 Cunning and which need 50. And I'm sure I missed a chest or two somewhere. But during my playthrough it was not a problem. Your milage may vary with different plot progression orders.

Instead I suggest getting Arrow of Slaying and Scattershots to play around if you do not want the filler talents.

The DLC items are powerful, and extra experience for a level or two is nice. Another reason to include DLC is because I'm not positive if Cunning rogues are better than Dex without Tainted Blade. I don't see the point of optimizing without the best gears,maximum posisble level, or if they are being out damaged by another build.

[LightSabres]

dkjestrup wrote...

More saving one point in lockpicking versus easy combat in Ostagar.

Exactly.

I just finished Ostager with my soon to be Archer Rogue (Archery SUCKS early on!) and I was able to open all chests AND have momentum for the Ogre fight.....

[dkjestrup]

^ Thank you. You have plenty of skillpoints as a Dual Wielder, as you only really need Momentum and Riposte from the Dual Wield tree, 1 point in Deft hands won't hurt you.

[wby87]

I'll throw my last two cents on this Deft Hands vs. Momentum issue:

I think theorycrafting is one of the few areas in game where you can strives for "perfection." On my first rogue, I had rank 4 Deft Hands and 40 some Cunning before I realized I wasted 2 talent points. I never finished playing through that rogue, because I regret making mistakes like that.

So when your rogue with Deft Hands rank 1 reaches level 20, and you compare him/her with another equivalent rogue without Deft Hands. Are they equally competent in every utility situation? Of course. Is your rogue less competent in combat because of the 1 less talent points? Of course no; the other rogue got Feign Death instead, and he'll never use it. But is your character as perfect as the other rogue? My answer is no. The difference is one nearly useless talent versus a completely useless one. But to me, that's enough to separate the very good from the perfect.

To sum it up, would you respecialize a level 20 rogue and put points in Deft Hands?

As for not having Momentum during Ostagar, I guess I just enjoy seeing the Ogre suffer 43% longer.

Once again this is a very much pointless personal preference; I'll stop ranting about it.

Modifié par wby87, 26 janvier 2010 - 04:03 .

[Jarrydian]

Quick question: I just got The Rose's Thorn yesterday. Rocks btw

Which is the better offhand though?

Dead Thaig Shanker or Crow Dagger Tier 7? That +15% extra backstab dmg plus 3 rune sockets on Crow Dagger looks tempting...but the Shanker is also good. Can't decide!

[wby87]

http://social.biowar...66/index/223777

For offhand, Thorn of Dead Gods, Fang, The Edge, Dead Thaig Shanker, and Crow Dagger all comes very close in terms of pure DPS.

If you have The Edge or Fang, they are a bit superior in terms of DPS.

Thorn of Dead Gods comes third IIRC, it is most commonly used because the two daggers above aren't accessable by everyone.

Spell interruption on the Shanker works 100% of the time, of course provided that the mage you are hitting aren't already riposited, arrow slayed, or mana clashed.

Crow dagger is easier to find, and you can upgrade them using a merchant or chest.