142 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Like Wulfram said it's pretty bad for encounter design. Let's pretend for a moment that combat abilities in Dragon 3 will require a lot of strategy and there are definite benefits and offsets to certain character builds. Certain mobs will probably have different strengths and weaknesses. If the player is given the possibility to adapt so easily to all these encounters, it could make even a complex design 

If people want to familiarize themselves with different character builds I imagine there have to be better ways than infinite potions of respec.

A good design would be equal difficulty for any build anyway, wouldn't it? Only different tactics. Not favoring the mage over the warrior in encounter A, for instance, and giving everyone (roughly) the same opportunities to shine or be used as a floor-wiping device by the adversary. How can an encounter designer know a build in advance and so know that their design is fool-proof? And how is respeccing different from taking such and such companions according to their respective abilities, provided you know in advance whom you gonna fight?

And again, what compels you to respec on demand? Where would be the incentive, really? You seem to believe that everyone wants to cheat the game, easier encounters etc... while there are other reasons to respec than having every fight being a (boring) piece of cake. And yes, experimenting is one, as is revising a build that's bad only because you didn't know the system, limitations and functioning of a given game in advance, or because you realize after a while that no, it really doesn't fit your style (nor mentioning getting rid of those default skills you get at creation which you'll never use and which take a precious slot). Or (again) for RPGing purpose and character development.

[Aytanay]

If I feel the need I'd like to re-spec as many times as I want so I say keep it unlimited.

[daft inquisitor]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Like Wulfram said it's pretty bad for encounter design. Let's pretend for a moment that combat abilities in Dragon 3 will require a lot of strategy and there are definite benefits and offsets to certain character builds. Certain mobs will probably have different strengths and weaknesses. If the player is given the possibility to adapt so easily to all these encounters, it could make even a complex design 

You know what else helps the player adapt easily given a specific situation?

Being able to swap companions. If I feel I need three warriors and a mage for one mission, and then the next I want two archers and a mage and warrior? I can change that easily. Are you going to tell me now how swapping companions is runing the fun of the game? Please, pray tell, indugle me.

EDIT: Looks like Sutehk 'd me on that point...

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 11 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[Wulfram]

Choosing companions is a somewhat more natural part of the game world, not a purely game mechanical convenience that makes little sense from an in universe perspective. So it's less problematic to make it part of the expected play experience and balance around it.

Though I wouldn't oppose making it impossible to change companions mid mission, personally.

I don't think good design would have equal difficulty for all builds in all encounters. Achieving that would require incredibly boring design. Difficulty should balance out over the game, but it makes sense that a fire mage will have a few difficulties fighting the fire resistant monsters, while easily trouncing the guys who are made of ice.

[Fiacre]

Wulfram wrote...

Choosing companions is a somewhat more natural part of the game world, not a purely game mechanical convenience that makes little sense from an in universe perspective. So it's less problematic to make it part of the expected play experience and balance around it.

Though I wouldn't oppose making it impossible to change companions mid mission, personally.

I don't think good design would have equal difficulty for all builds in all encounters. Achieving that would require incredibly boring design. Difficulty should balance out over the game, but it makes sense that a fire mage will have a few difficulties fighting the fire resistant monsters, while easily trouncing the guys who are made of ice.

How is Maker's sigh an expected part of the gameplay? It's a possibility, and one that doesn't really makes things (much) easier than choosing your companions to fit whatever you will encounter. And even choosing companions based on combat is not a necessity -- I usually always choose mine based on RP reasons (with the exception of always having a warrior who can use taunt during High Dragon encounters -- though, considering that I uaually either am a warrior or have, if I'm a mage -- or even a rogue, rare as that is -- at least one warrior in my default team of people my character gets along well with and subsequently takes with them on missions).

[Femlob]

Conduit0 wrote...

Ah, the old, "I want to ****** in everyone's wheaties because I hate breakfast cereal" argument, I've never seen that on the BSN before.
<_<

This whole topic is this, precisely this and nothing more than this. It has nothing to do with "improving the balance" or "making players think" or whatever the hell ever, and trying to pass it off as such is just insulting.

Bottom line: "Stop liking what I don't like".

[Wulfram]

Fiacre wrote...

How is Maker's sigh an expected part of the gameplay?

If it's unlimited and available through regular gameplay, it should be expected.  Introducing it and just forgetting about it is bad design.

[Fiacre]

Wulfram wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

How is Maker's sigh an expected part of the gameplay?

If it's unlimited and available through regular gameplay, it should be expected.  Introducing it and just forgetting about it is bad design.

even if you count it as such, I still don't see the problem. There's enough incentive not to abuse it. Respecing takes time, you have to get used to the new build, respecing for every encounter would take massive amounts of time and oyu'd never get to fully enjoy any build, Maker's sigh costs money (personally, I'm far too cheap to buy masses of it. I think I might have sued it once. I'm not sure though, I might not have used it at all.)

I also usually only use Awakening's respec tome to give companions a build I like rather than one they come with and that I might not want to play with. The extreme abuse that it actually makes gameplay siginificantly easier -- moreso than just switching to casual -- seems like it would be rare compared to using it to get a build you might find more fun or fix mistakes you made when you didn't know the system well enough I don't quite see how infinite respecs, and the devs knowing so makes the game unbalanced, particularly since those that feel the need to do this know they'll make the game easier for them. If someone wants to have a significant advabatage, they can, but others who don't don't have to -- seems fine to me. I can't say I ever noticed anything egative about combat and difficulty that I'd say would be solved by restricting respecs.

[Sutekh]

Wulfram wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

How is Maker's sigh an expected part of the gameplay?

If it's unlimited and available through regular gameplay, it should be expected.  Introducing it and just forgetting about it is bad design.

Does that mean that the designers intend for me to use absolutely everything they put in the game? Every classes, races, equipment and so on? Every runes and potions? It's there ergo it must be part of the gameplay?

I'm sorry, but that makes little sense to me. It's a possibility. An option. A way for some people to play the way they want to, without having to abide by some purist rules deciding "Thou Shall Not Respec". In this case it's even part of a DLC. It gets hardly any more optional than that, really.

If Maker's Sigh was the only reward in a difficult mandatory quest or something along the line, I'd understand the reasoning, but I can't fathom why "If you don't like it, don't use it since you dont have to" is so difficult to understand.

Again why do you all care so much about what other people do in their game?

[Wulfram]

To be fair I should probably stop worrying about relatively minor balance points like this while they still do things like toss out crazy overpowered items with the DLC.

[Emzamination]

Honestly, it's really none of your business what people that aren't you do with their characters in game, op.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

Choosing companions is a somewhat more natural part of the game world, not a purely game mechanical convenience that makes little sense from an in universe perspective. So it's less problematic to make it part of the expected play experience and balance around it.

The thing is, choosing abilities and leveling at all is all part of the game-world contrivance. Why is it the case that some abilities have level-restrictions, for example, forcing you to either want until you reach that level to invest points in it (rather than taking a useless ability) or taking a useless ability and later respeccing?

It amounts to the same thing.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Wulfram wrote...

Choosing companions is a somewhat more natural part of the game world, not a purely game mechanical convenience that makes little sense from an in universe perspective. So it's less problematic to make it part of the expected play experience and balance around it.

Though I wouldn't oppose making it impossible to change companions mid mission, personally.

I don't think good design would have equal difficulty for all builds in all encounters. Achieving that would require incredibly boring design. Difficulty should balance out over the game, but it makes sense that a fire mage will have a few difficulties fighting the fire resistant monsters, while easily trouncing the guys who are made of ice.

This. Good design should have different character builds confer varying advantages, whether in or out of combat, and limit the accessibility of other content imo.

Character builds need to become more restrictive. The PC should get locked out of certain content based on the build you make. Not have an equal chance at everything.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Femlob wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Ah, the old, "I want to ****** in everyone's wheaties because I hate breakfast cereal" argument, I've never seen that on the BSN before.
<_<

This whole topic is this, precisely this and nothing more than this. It has nothing to do with "improving the balance" or "making players think" or whatever the hell ever, and trying to pass it off as such is just insulting.

Bottom line: "Stop liking what I don't like".

Yes, yes, you're spot on. I just want people to stop having fun. Ever since I was little... I saw people... having fun, while I sat there like the cynical rat that I am, complaining... about them having fun.

[Avaflame]

I don't understand how there is even an argument about this. Why lobby to remove/limit a feature that HAS NO BEARING ON YOUR GAME unless you want it to? I never respec. because I would feel like I was cheating and my mind can't justify drinking a potion and forgetting how to throw a fireball and learning how to throw a rock, but there's no practical reason for me to take the option away from people who aren't bothered by it.

And it can't break/unbalance anything if it's optional. Trying to dispute otherwise is just selfish, in my opinion.

[Fiacre]

Wulfram wrote...

To be fair I should probably stop worrying about relatively minor balance points like this while they still do things like toss out crazy overpowered items with the DLC.

What overpowered DLC items are in the story DLCs? And yes, that's a serious, honest question -- the only "overpowered" item I can think of right now is The Hawke's Key if you use the bug to give it all potential abilities and... well. There's the whole "use a bug" thing. There's the DLC item packs of course, but those are desinged to be kind of overpowered and you actually need to spend real money on them and be interested in overpowered items in the first place.

I'll freely admit, I have them. I'll also admit that I don't care for a challenge in DA -- the combat system is one that I like, but not adore so much that I feel the need to be particularly challenged and make fights longer than they need to be. But some of the item pack amors/robes (particularly things like The Fugitive's Mantle) save me from having the choice between Ugly Armor A oh maker my eyes are bleeding and Ugly Armor B why Bioware why do you do this to me and Pretty Armor That I Got Two Acts Ago. (And then there are the item pack shields that fall into the what have I ever done to deserve this category more than any base game shield.)

[SilentK]

Urzon wrote...

I'll have to disagree with you. Being able to respec, unlimitly, doesn't kill character character builds, and it doesn't stop people from putting just as much thought into them. It allows players to try different specs until they find one they are most comfortable with. If anything, it allows players to refine and and give even deeper thoughts into their character build.

I would also like to add, that it can give a character's story more depth as well. One of my Hawkes was a healer all throughout Act1, but after the Deep Roads disaster; he found his healing lacking compared to Ander's. Even more so after the battle with the Rock Wraith, where Carver almost lost his life the first time. So in Act2, he devoted alot of his time to the study of force magic. In Act3, after all the emotional turmoil of his mother's death, he turned to blood magic. He vowed to protect all those who were close to him, even at the cost of himself.

I wouldn't have been able to do that storyline without the ability to respec multiple times.

Ohh... that was a great idea! Will have to try something similar myself sometime.

[elfdwarf]

if respec every rogue couldn't pick lock or traps and mage and rogue defeated by isabela in fade

[Sutekh]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Yes, yes, you're spot on. I just want people to stop having fun. Ever since I was little... I saw people... having fun, while I sat there like the cynical rat that I am, complaining... about them having fun.

I knew it! 

Seriously though, what's optional shouldn't bother you. You've explained why you consider respec a bad thing, which is your respectable opinion, but I've yet to see an explanation from you, the OP or Wulfram as to why it bothers you so much that it exists, apart from some (misplaced?) purism.

As for limiting content based on build, what kind of content are we talking about?

Wulfram wrote...

To be fair I should probably stop worrying about relatively minor balance points like this while they still do things like toss out crazy overpowered items with the DLC.

Yeah, it annoys me too. Generally, DLC items look good, or at least are different and who doesn't want additional content when you're on your tenth playthrough and have tried every damn armor available? But that overpowering them is really spoiling the fun, for me.

Ar least, there was a level limitation for them in DA2, which lessened the problem a bit.

There should be two versions, IMO. Same look, but different stats. Overpowered and reasonable. I don't think it would cost that much more in terms of zots, since it's only changing some numbers.

[daft inquisitor]

elfdwarf wrote...

if respec every rogue couldn't pick lock or traps and mage and rogue defeated by isabela in fade

...wut? 

[Sarquindi]

*Sten voice* No

I constantly change my character, and I don't want to replay half of the game just because I couldn't find any way to make archery viable.  Even with the respec mod, I replayed both games plenty of times.  :/   Hasn't hurt replay for me.

Modifié par Uinen03, 11 janvier 2013 - 05:42 .

[Fiacre]

Sutekh wrote...
Yeah, it annoys me too. Generally, DLC items look good, or at least are different and who doesn't want additional content when you're on your tenth playthrough and have tried every damn armor available? But that overpowering them is really spoiling the fun, for me.

Ar least, there was a level limitation for them in DA2, which lessened the problem a bit.

There should be two versions, IMO. Same look, but different stats. Overpowered and reasonable. I don't think it would cost that much more in terms of zots, since it's only changing some numbers.

Ah, that I get. True, if you want both aesthetics an a challenge the fact the item packs items are overpowered would be quite bothersome... Which is why I shouldn't type overly long posts just after a nap.

[PsychoBlonde]

Technically aren't you already limited on respec by how much cash you have to spend buying respec potions? It's a fairly LARGE limit but there are finite available funds in the game and plenty of other things you might want to spend money on.

That being said, I don't have a huge preference along these lines--I don't use the respec all that much. I might almost prefer it be integrated with the story somewhat, like you can only respec at a time skip or other major changeover. It might even be cool if there are times when companions respec themselves. I dunno.

[LinksOcarina]

The Maker Sighs were one of the best additions to Dragon Age II, because it can be used to rebuild characters.

I say keep them.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, if specializations are going to become a larger part of the story (which I do like), then the respect potion will probably keep your specialization but return the points. Which I think is fair. :/