142 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

Aldandil wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...


Translation: My way of playing the game is the only correct way to play the game and anyone who wants to play it a different way is a terrible person and should be punished.


I'm just going to go back to my original statement, "pissing in other peoples wheaties because you hate breakfast cereal" sums up this entire idiotic thread quite nicely.

Not at all. I'm just explaining why I'd be happier without a respec potion in the game. I wouldn't want to have a God mode potion in game either. I do think it's ugly debating tactic to say that I can't have preferences about a feature that is optional but still changes the game world I'm playing in.

I am just curious that in a setting with potions that do other miraculous things. What is it exactly about the makers sigh that sets it apart?

Also if a respect option is available in DA3 I would have no issue with it going on a menu or in the character sheet somewhere.

[CrazyRah]

addiction21 wrote...

How does what someone else does in their own singleplayer game effect you at all?

And why are you moaning about what other people could possibly do that would never affect you in any way?

[Lennard Testarossa]

jwalker wrote...
What does ? For me, the whole skill tree doesn't make sense from an
in-game perspective either. It's "artificial" They're just a bunch of
arbitrary set of rules and mechanics to handle combat, nothing more. Why
do you have to spent 2 points of "X" to unlock "Y" and only after
character level "N", for example ? How does that make any sense ? Or,
like in many games, why if you choose "W" ability you can't take "V"
? Why ? How is that not "artificial" It doesn't make sense. But the
thing is, it doesn't have to. Restrictions on how you build skill trees
are only there to balance combat. And all these restrictions are
"artificial"

...yes, it does make sense. It is a representation of something that actually exists in-game. It may not be a perfect representation, but it does reflect something real. That is something entirely different from Maker's Sigh.

addiction21 wrote...
I am just curious that in a setting with potions that do other
miraculous things. What is it exactly about the makers sigh that sets it
apart?

Maker's Sigh is a potion that makes someone who was a blood mage his entire life and who did nothing but study blood magic instantly forget everything he ever knew about blood magic and turns him into an experienced spirit healer, despite never actually having trained spirit magic. A fighter who only ever trained with sword and shield suddenly becomes a master archer. There is a rather enormous difference between that and healing potions. One wonders why we've never heard of powerful mages conveniently switching what they're good at according to what situation they find themselves in.

deatharmonic wrote...
Honestly, I don't understand how something which you could go through
the entire game without using could influence your in-game experience

Ashensugar wrote...
Suggestions such as this one, designed to limit other players based upon
a personal conceit strike me as rather selfish, in a kind of
'interfering busybody' kind of way

You still haven't answered the whole "heaps of gold"-thing.

The mere existence of an option changes how one perceives the game, even if one does not use that option.

deatharmonic wrote...
So how is having the mechanic relatively unrestrictive resulting in it not working?

Infinite respec makes sensible allocation of skill/attribute/specialization-points unnecessary, as one can simply pick what works best for every encounter. It thus breaks the entire skill-tree system.

jwalker wrote...
Removing such option for everybody wouldn't be fair

Why not make it an easily accessible cheat code?

[Aldandil]

addiction21 wrote...

I am just curious that in a setting with potions that do other miraculous things. What is it exactly about the makers sigh that sets it apart?

Also if a respect option is available in DA3 I would have no issue with it going on a menu or in the character sheet somewhere.

Well, to me, the respecc option is so obviously a behind the scenes, player centered feature that it would be impossible for it to work in-world. It really marks out where the story and world building ends and technical character features begin.

[addiction21]

Aldandil wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I am just curious that in a setting with potions that do other miraculous things. What is it exactly about the makers sigh that sets it apart?

Also if a respect option is available in DA3 I would have no issue with it going on a menu or in the character sheet somewhere.

Well, to me, the respecc option is so obviously a behind the scenes, player centered feature that it would be impossible for it to work in-world. It really marks out where the story and world building ends and technical character features begin.

I get it but then I have to ask about experience points, level ups, adding attribute points (for example how they just apper at a level up and a rogue can increase their magical power even tho they have not studied it) and I might be mistaken but making one tranquil has a clear effect on their mental state but also suddenly makes them proficient enchanters.
Also when you level up and picking a skill and being able to immediately use it. Even in the middle of a fight.

Could it maybe just be in tiny part that these are rather common things for the genre going back pretty much to its inception and the whole respect is somewhat rarer and generally newer?

I rarely use them myself (I am a like it or lump person) more for awakenings to set up the new companions as I so wish and maybe twice in DA2. Just trying to get a handle on why some things are fine why this kinda breaks the mold so to speak.

P.S.
Testarossa would of thrown your quote in but I generally screw it up trying to pick one quote out of the middle

[AlexJK]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Infinite respec makes sensible allocation of skill/attribute/specialization-points unnecessary, as one can simply pick what works best for every encounter. It thus breaks the entire skill-tree system.

It's not infinite though, it's gold-limited at least, so this isn't a viable tactic.

Why not make it an easily accessible cheat code?

Why is that so different? The entire Black Emporium is basically one giant "cheat" anyway (good items, buy crafting ingredients you didn't find, respecs, alter appearance, etc.) Just don't install it- and done!

[In Exile]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
. One wonders why we've never heard of powerful mages conveniently switching what they're good at according to what situation they find themselves in.

Gameplay/story segregation. Actual potions are an example of gameplay segregation. As is, technically, lyrum - mages can't consume the stuff.

[deatharmonic]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

You still haven't answered the whole "heaps of gold"-thing.

The mere existence of an option changes how one perceives the game, even if one does not use that option.

I already addressed why those examaples/ whole argument you gave was ridiculous which included the heaps of gold but i'll repost:

'None of that makes sense, the way you play your game wouldn't be affected because those things you listed aren't in the game to begin with, so nothing is being taken away from you. Your asking for things to be added then saying 'well its optional'. OP is asking for BW to restrict something which is already there, what's the point in that? It's already in place and the option is there to use it or not.'

(it's on page 5 if you wish to view it in the context of your comment)

Lennard Testarossa wrote...


Infinite respec makes sensible allocation of skill/attribute/specialization-points unnecessary, as one can simply pick what works best for every encounter. It thus breaks the entire skill-tree system.

Ok

1) 'sensible allocation'? that varies from player to player.

2) 'one can simply pick what works best for every encounter'? You'd have to meta-game to know whats going to work on the next thing you encounter, but for the sake of argument lets say I know and I do change, so what? According to you I broke my skill tree, but your not playing my game.

3) seeing as your against 'picking what works for every encounter' I'm assuming it's something you won't be doing, so it's not going to (by your own admission) break the skill tree system.

4) as AlexJK pointed out, it's not unlimited, it costs money

Modifié par deatharmonic, 13 janvier 2013 - 07:30 .

[Aldandil]

In Exile wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
. One wonders why we've never heard of powerful mages conveniently switching what they're good at according to what situation they find themselves in.

Gameplay/story segregation. Actual potions are an example of gameplay segregation. As is, technically, lyrum - mages can't consume the stuff.

Well, to me, the respecc pots are quite the opposite. They only deal with game mechanics that none of the player characters experience. It's not that they're getting separated from the story, they're getting shoved into the story when they don't have any business being there. That's why they shouldn't be pots but rather a cheat code or something about as intrusive.

By the way, am I right in assuming that the limits imposed on respecc pots in DA2 aren't actually considered too severe by most posters here? I'm talking about them being relatively expensive and only available in one (out of character) store. Because as I've said before, that's something I can live with, even though I think having them as strictly cheat codes would be better. I'm just trying to gauge how much we really disagree here.

Oh, and here's a genuine question: Is it really the case that mages can't be in contact with lyrium, meaning that they can't regenerate "mana" (which I guess is some kind of gameplay abstraction, since I haven't seen it mentioned in the lore at any point) from lyrium? If so, I didn't know that, but it's nice to find out.

And finally, the idea that limiting respeccs would be to remove items from the game: That's still not a fair argument since nothing's in the game and we're discussing what we think should be in it. It's still not an answer to the question of what the difference is between being able having the option to choose abilities as we like during the game and having the option of ignoring money requirements in in-game stores. The argument remains that having the option to disregard or circumvent an in-game rule changes how you experience the game, even if you don't mean to use it.

[In Exile]

[quote]Aldandil wrote...
Well, to me, the respecc pots are quite the opposite. They only deal with game mechanics that none of the player characters experience. [/quote]

Why do you suppose that this is the case?

[quote]It's not that they're getting separated from the story, they're getting shoved into the story when they don't have any business being there. That's why they shouldn't be pots but rather a cheat code or something about as intrusive.  [/quote]

They're not getting in the story. Even if you give Merril heal, she's not a healer. Even if Anders doesn't have any healing traits, he is a healer. These are hardwired. The game already let's you play it however you want.

[quote[By the way, am I right in assuming that the limits imposed on respecc pots in DA2 aren't actually considered too severe by most posters here? I'm talking about them being relatively expensive and only available in one (out of character) store. Because as I've said before, that's something I can live with, even though I think having them as strictly cheat codes would be better. I'm just trying to gauge how much we really disagree here. [/quote]

I think they're a wonderful gameplay innovation like the mirror of transformation, and there's no justification to have them removed so long as we're playing a game at all.

[quote]Oh, and here's a genuine question: Is it really the case that mages can't be in contact with lyrium, meaning that they can't regenerate "mana" (which I guess is some kind of gameplay abstraction, since I haven't seen it mentioned in the lore at any point) from lyrium? If so, I didn't know that, but it's nice to find out. [/quote]

Mana is actually mentioned in the lore. It's meant to be a concept that captures the mage's willpower, the ability to cast spells. That's actually part of the lore. And what mages can't touch is raw lyrium. That was actually my bad.

Presumably lyrium potions are processed somehow. The issue, though, is addiction (which we see featured heavily with templars).

[quote]The argument remains that having the option to disregard or circumvent an in-game rule changes how you experience the game, even if you don't mean to use it. [/quote]

But there's no in-game rule here. Why is it that I can't pick stats for Varric before I acquire him, but I can do it after? That's abritrary. Why is Hawke stuck with (IMO) a useless trait from the arcane school? 

[StarcloudSWG]

Your argument for removing them basically boils down to "Because it's there, I feel compelled to use it. Please take the temptation away from me."

[DreGregoire]

Ummmm, I'm not going to read all of these pages but I have to say. I really liked being able to respec in game instead of having to use a debug command. If the devs are going to take the time to put the ability in the game, why would they want to limit its use? Also, you can respec your companions which is extremely useful if they aren't set up in a useful way for your style of play.

[jwalker]

 @Lennard

What are you opposed to, exactly ? The actual feature (resetting skill points) ir its implementation in DA2 (potions) ?
Personally, I couldn't care less how it's done as long as there is a convenient way to do it. Ideally for me, it'd be done by a "Reset skill points" button or menu option somewhere. To me, the skill tree is merely an UI where you customize how you want to handle combat with that specific character. I don't "roleplay" the skill tree. It's a tool to access gameplay mechanics, nothing more.

The mere existence of an option changes how one perceives the game, even if one does not use that option.

If the mere knowledge that a certain optional feature such as this exists disrupts someone's enjoyment of the game then, I'm sorry, that's their shortcoming and their problem. Devs shouldn't cater to this.

Infinite respec makes sensible allocation of skill/attribute/specialization-points unnecessary, as one can simply pick what works best for every encounter. It thus breaks the entire skill-tree system.

First, not infinite. IIRC, those potions were quite costly in DA2.
Second, I think you're overestimating how often this would happen. People who don't care/don't want/struggle with combat won't be bothered with "optimal builds" and stuff. They would just lower the difficutlty level. Going through such a hassle to make combat easier (which is what you're suggesting it's their motivation) it's absurd.
Third, the existance of an "easy" way and a "hard" way makes the latter more worthwhile in terms of bragging rights. I mean, there could be even an achievment for not ever resetting skill points (I bet many would put the link to their achievement sheet in their signatures)

Why not make it an easily accessible cheat code?

Because resetting skill points is not cheating.

Modifié par jwalker, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:01 .

[TK514]

What an absurdly terrible idea, OP.

[Biotic Sage]

In Exile wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
"This is the path I have chosen and now I get to reap the benefits of committing to this path." That's one of the ultimate satisfactions of games that allow you to build your character.

How about the ultimate satisfaction of, oh, this effect is bugged, I should have realized this other ability was better but I didn't pick it.

Well, you did leave out the rest of my post in your quote, the part that answers this question...

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:19 .