178 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

nicethugbert wrote...

I can do that with what I am suggesting and so can everybody else and it would be child's play for BW to implement.

And you know this because...? Just because the "ingredients are already in the game" doesn't mean they can easily assemble them in the way you want.

In Exile wrote...

What does 20% mean? Is that an extra 2/3rds of a hurlock? An extra Ogre? Does it mean that Bioware just keeps adding assasins with max health?

Edit:

Encounters are done by hand and balanced. Bioware would have to design an entire random encounter mechanism. script it, make sure that the right enemy loads, make sure that the areas can handle the number of enemies, make sure that the engine can display that number of enemies ...

I took this to mean an increase in individual mob strength, and not number of mobs. Using your hurlock example, let's say the base hurlock has 10 STR, then you increase to 20% "difficulty," so now it has 12 STR, and so forth, with a maximum of 500%.

Of course we already have level scaling, and everything in the game is based off that, including loot drops and merchant gear, which Bioware seems to like. The trouble would be in getting them to move away from that if you really want more dynamic difficulty settings.

[nicethugbert]

Corker wrote...

Alias Oddvar wrote...

they could do away with pure junk items. That way our inventories would not fill up so fast.
Also has the bonus of limiting gold.

It would mess with the rhythm of exploration.  You could do it, but you'd probably want to shrink all the boards.

I noticed on my 3rd DA2 PTthat there's a definite rhythm as your run around.  About every... 20 sec? 30 sec?  I didn't time it - there's either a dialogue encounter, a combat encounter or a small switchback on the map that contains a lootable object, which most of the time has junk in it.  Otherwise, it's a crafting resource or some good loot. They typically alternate between fights and loot, although sometimes you get a few loot drops in a row with no combat.

I assume that's because endless jogging is boring. So we get these attention grabbers at regular intervals.  But you can't put good items in every loot drop because it would put too many resources into the game. So it's mostly junk.  If you remove the junk, then you just get a string of combats with the occasional RP encounter thrown in, which might also be monotonous.



tl;dr: I don't like junk either, but I suspect we'd complain that the boards were boring and unvaried without it.

I think it would improve the game's rythm because the typical RPG loot/inventory/trade system makes no sense as the game progresses.  Dumpster diving is all well and good when your character is starting out as a lowly something or other.  But, by the third chapter, inventories and merchants are totally out of place with saving the world.

[daft inquisitor]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Tetris inventories are less efficient if the player doesn't bother managing them, but that's the player's fault. If the player takes a few minutes to sort things early on, the system becomes much less labour-intensive to use..

It's not fun. It isn't about the time invested - it's about how not fun it is.

Which, like many game mechanics, is a matter of opinion. I rather like inventory tetris, myself. A few others in the thread have said as much, as well. To each his own, and all that. 

[Swagger7]

Gazardiel wrote...

When I saw the subject line, I thought you were speaking out against Diablo I's inventory tetris system where you actually had to geometrically fit items in your rectangular bag.

I am disappoint... and probably old.

Perhaps I'm crazy, but I actually enjoyed the inventory puzzles of old RPGs.  Dungeon Siege had it.  I think Baldur's Gate did as well?

[nightscrawl]

In Exile wrote...

It's not fun. It isn't about the time invested - it's about how not fun it is.

The faster you finish with your loot the faster you can get back to the fun! Eat your veggies before dessert! ;D

Joking aside, I can see that. The "not fun" aspect is one reason I liked the companion gear in DA2. Not only was I pleased with their cohesive look (although I would have preferred some change over time), but I liked that I only had to concern myself with their weapons, necks, and rings. On the other hand, I've read several posts on here from people who want the DAO system to return so they can completely customize every aspect of their companions' gear, which I didn't find very fun in that game.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:04 .

[Swagger7]

In response to the OP, the devs have already said that they don't like putting in option sliders. So it's highly unlikely you'll get your wish. Mods might be able to help you if you play on PC.

[nicethugbert]

Dysjong wrote...

Manegin your items is part of what i consider RPG. Im used to it from table-top.

I miss the weight system and interactble items, that might start somekind of dialog. Best example i come with is planescape torment.

I wish the game had an item weight system, and wagons, and a quarter master and a trusty leutenant squire you could assign to protect your caravan and .......... and a way to shut it all off so I can concentrate on the story or the combat or whatever I want.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tetris inventories are less efficient if the player doesn't bother managing them, but that's the player's fault. If the player takes a few minutes to sort things early on, the system becomes much less labour-intensive to use.

It's not fun. It isn't about the time invested - it's about how not fun it is.

Scrolling through the same list over and over again is fun?  How is that fun?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:09 .

[Dysjong]

nicethugbert wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Manegin your items is part of what i consider RPG. Im used to it from table-top.

I miss the weight system and interactble items, that might start somekind of dialog. Best example i come with is planescape torment.

I wish the game had an item weight system, and wagons, and a quarter master and a trusty leutenant squire you could assign to protect your caravan and .......... and a way to shut it all off so I can concentrate on the story or the combat or whatever I want.

then look for another game. I don't mean to be rude but based on what you have said, it's my only advice to you.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Swagger7 wrote...

Gazardiel wrote...

When I saw the subject line, I thought you were speaking out against Diablo I's inventory tetris system where you actually had to geometrically fit items in your rectangular bag.

I am disappoint... and probably old.

Perhaps I'm crazy, but I actually enjoyed the inventory puzzles of old RPGs.  Dungeon Siege had it.  I think Baldur's Gate did as well?

From what I remember Baldur's Gate used a weight system rather than object size with all objects taking up one square with some objects being automatically grouped while still only taking up one square

[Steppenwolf]

nicethugbert wrote...

I want to be able to customize my game experience so I can enjoy the game.  Difficulty modes in BW games are dumbed down and don't accomodate player preferences well at all.  In order to enjoy a game a player needs control of:
1)  Wealth.  Some people just want to throw money at all problems, some want to spend hours milking bourbon out of a boulder.
2)  XP.  Some people want to set the world on fire in technicolor.  Others want to spork the world.
3)  Horde Size.  Some people want to see the bodies pile up and others just want to deal with Hag Mother and not her rug rats.
4)  Horde Strength/Composition.  Some want a world where most monsters are mooks and others only want to deal with the best, only the best!. 
5)  Friendly Fire.  Sometimes your party looks good when it's on fire, especially with today's graphics.
6)  Critical Hits and Such.  Some of us want to play by the same rules and some of us don't want to be bothered by pesky rules.

So, in closing, games need a custom difficulty mode where a player can set the Wealth Level, XP Level, Encounter Size, Encounter Strength, Friendly Fire, Critical Hits and Such..  It's not complicated.  There can still be predetermined difficulty settings so people can compare epeens.  But most of us don't care for that.

I don't think a single game in existence offers this. And if you can't enjoy a game without this then you've obviously never enjoyed a game.

[daft inquisitor]

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Gazardiel wrote...

When I saw the subject line, I thought you were speaking out against Diablo I's inventory tetris system where you actually had to geometrically fit items in your rectangular bag.

I am disappoint... and probably old.

Perhaps I'm crazy, but I actually enjoyed the inventory puzzles of old RPGs.  Dungeon Siege had it.  I think Baldur's Gate did as well?

From what I remember Baldur's Gate used a weight system rather than object size with all objects taking up one square with some objects being automatically grouped while still only taking up one square

You would be correct. I never really cared for that style of inventory management myself, but you gotta go with whatcha got. 

[DarthLaxian]

Dysjong wrote...

Manegin your items is part of what i consider RPG. Im used to it from table-top.

I miss the weight system and interactble items, that might start somekind of dialog. Best example i come with is planescape torment.

bah - no weight system, please -.-

i hated that with elder scrolls games (and i still do)

in a way i hate limited inventory size, too - because it is a game, let me carry heaps of useless trash around (why drop stuff that fills up my bag, if my bag is too small for it all)

as for deciding on what to pick up, what to sell and all that:

yeah, it might make sens, but why not give me the space i need and i will sell when i find time, not when my bag is full like in an MMO, where unlike in most MMOs i can't leave certain encounters to sell stuff when my bag is full...

greetings LAX
ps: why do so many people enjoy play-work? (meaning playing a game where you have to "work" (doing stuff that is not exactly fun, because you simply have to)...sorry, but you have a job for that (or you go to university/school for this) and you should not need this in a game)

[AlexJK]

nicethugbert wrote...

Oh good.  I'll buy a bunch of games.  Put them in the blender.  Put the mix in the oven and bake myself the game I want as I want.  Thx, my quest is over.

Well, I don't think that'll work, but OK.

nicethugbert wrote...

I appreciate plain and even speech.  But, I also appreciate being factual.  There is nothing impossible, or complicated, or difficult at all about what I'm suggesting.  Any programmer who makes a big deal about what I am about to suggest should have his Computer Science degree revoked.

Wow. I'll admit that my first response was snippy, but this is just arrogant. You think that adding 6 or 7 switches and sliders to change various aspects of the game in some very extreme ways is an easy programming (and design, and testing) exercise? I am offended, sir. And I'll keep my CS degree where it is, thanks.

Modifié par AlexJK, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:48 .

[Dysjong]

Darthlaxian -

For the same reason FPS limits the player on how many wepons the player can carry, realism. I actually liked the weight system in Oblivion and Skyrim. You could carry tons of stuff but you would become slow, so now you would have to ask yourself this, do you drop some of the loot you have found in order to move faster, thus lowering the chances for ambushes or are you greedy and confident that you want as much gold as you can?

Modifié par Dysjong, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:45 .

[AlexJK]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Inventory tetris requires less work from the player, not more. Measure it. See how long it takes you to arrange your inventory in a game with tetris, and then compare that to all of the times you have to brwose through your list inventory to find things in games with lists.

List inventories are less efficient.

Measure it.

Tetris inventories are less efficient if the player doesn't bother managing them, but that's the player's fault. If the player takes a few minutes to sort things early on, the system becomes much less labour-intensive to use.

Measure it.

Darn tootin'. Deus Ex and DX:HR, while not the most advanced of inventory systems in the gaming world, are some of my favourite inventory systems. Amazing how easy and manageable they actually are with minimal effort. Compare to DA2's system (what, another "ring"??!!) and there's an easy winner

[nicethugbert]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...
I appreciate plain and even speech.  But, I also appreciate being factual.  There is nothing impossible, or complicated, or difficult at all about what I'm suggesting. [/quote]

Yes, there is. You're asking for completely different games.
[/quote]

Yes, like DA:O is four games in one(Easy DA:O, Normal DA:O, ...........) because that is what difficulty settings amount to and shame on EA for not advertising that DA:O is four games for the price of one.

[quote]In Exile wrote...[quote]It's all actually very simple.  All the ingredients are already in the game. [/quote]That's like puting a bunch of meats and vegetables on the table and saying you have steak, lasagna and pizza. You still have to cook them.
[/quote]

BW elected to get into the cooking business.  I'm just letting them know what meal I want to buy from them.  Don't worry them is a banquet in ti for everybody.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]The mechanism behind the sliders and check boxes is child's play.  One of the Bioware devs posted that he wanted to create a more detailed difficulty setting.  But what he had in mind is a lot more involved than what I am suggesting.[/quote]
Every single programmer in the world is screaming out in pain now.
[/quote]

Pansies.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]1)  Wealth:  One slider that adjusts how much merchants pay for items as a percent of the item's price.  Ranges from 10% to 500% in 10% increments. [/quote]

That assumes that there a single "thing" that determines how much each merchant pays, and that this won't bug the price of items.
[/quote]

No, you take the local price of the item and multiply it by the multiplier, child's play.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]2)   XP:  Simple like the Wealth slider, a multipler from 10% to 500% in 10% increments. [/quote]

Level scaling. You can actually make the game impossible because you devalue the strength of your loot. That has to be proportional to what you're doing. This has to be balanced. There has to be QA.
[/quote]

Adjust your settings and reload the last save.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]3)  Horde Size:  Another simple slider, a multipler from 20% to 500% in 20% increments. [/quote]

What does 20% mean? Is that an extra 2/3rds of a hurlock? An extra Ogre? Does it mean that Bioware just keeps adding assasins with max health?

[/quote]

Why do you compare a single monster to a group of monsters?

[quote]In Exile wrote...
Edit:

Encounters are done by hand and balanced. Bioware would have to design an entire random encounter mechanism. script it, make sure that the right enemy loads, make sure that the areas can handle the number of enemies, make sure that the engine can display that number of enemies ...
[/quote]

No, furniture is done by hand.  Encounters are scripted.  So, when the game reads the script and sees 10 Hurlocks and 1 Hurlock Alpha in the script, it is easy for it to look at the Horde Size setting, see that it is set to 20% and spawn 2 Hurlocks and 1 Hurlock Alpha.  Interpreting a Horde Size modifier of less than 100% as a 0 would make it possible for there to be empty encounters.  So it is better to interpret it as at least one.  Simple, effective.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]4)  Horde Strength:  Yet Another Simple Slider, I think I see a pattern here, an HP, resistance, armor, and attribute multiplier ranging from 10% to 500% in 10% increments.  Sure, you could make this into a set of sliders, one for each parameter, but, a simple one works well too. [/quote]

Again - balance. That has to be tested to make sure the game isn't unplayable.
[/quote]

The player can change the settings and reload the last save.  Also, the player should understand that if you make the game more difficult than the hardest setting, you're asking for punishment.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]5)  Friendly Fire:  Check Box, OMG SO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT [/quote]

Very, because the whole game is designed around it. Take one of the archer abilities in DA2 - it grants obscure status as one of the upgrades. But that upgrade is meaningless in nigthmare, because (prior to patch 1.04) a single use of the ability would be a 1-hit KO.
[/quote]

Not true, the DA series and practically every game turns off Friendly Fire in easy mode and turns it on in higher difficulties.  Giving the player control over this is not an issue.  He can always make the choice that suits him best.  This is not some universal evil.  Your game experience is not going to be ruined because I decided to turn friendly fire on or off.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]6)  Critical Hits on Player:  Yet Another Check Box, oops I broke the budget.[/quote]

You did, because now QA is doing 6 times the work to make sure you didn't break the game by allowing the player to switch the code around like a blender.
[/quote]

This is the same issue as Friendly Fire which is a non-issue.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Maybe the game freaks out when you have XP at 500 percent because you hit the level cap. Maybe the engine freaks out if you hit the level cap. Who knows? You have to test it and see.
[/quote]

People hit the level cap in games all the time.  Learn to program.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Maybe a quest is bugged if you can't get more XP. Maybe increasing horde size slows down the engine. Who knows? You have to test everything, even if it would be simple to do.

[/quote]

This is a bunch of selective hysteria.

[nicethugbert]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Tetris inventories are less efficient if the player doesn't bother managing them, but that's the player's fault. If the player takes a few minutes to sort things early on, the system becomes much less labour-intensive to use..

It's not fun. It isn't about the time invested - it's about how not fun it is.

Which, like many game mechanics, is a matter of opinion. I rather like inventory tetris, myself. A few others in the thread have said as much, as well. To each his own, and all that. 

Exactly!  To each his own.  That is exactly what I am proposing.  So glad you came around.

[Wulfram]

The objective of a game designer is to produce a good game.

Not to produce a bunch of sliders and toggles and leave it to me to work out what will result in a good game.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:51 .

[nicethugbert]

Swagger7 wrote...

In response to the OP, the devs have already said that they don't like putting in option sliders. So it's highly unlikely you'll get your wish. Mods might be able to help you if you play on PC.

Yeah, I've noticed their anti-choice tendancies despite game advertising and all the posts complaining about the lack of choice in games.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:55 .

[daft inquisitor]

DarthLaxian wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Manegin your items is part of what i consider RPG. Im used to it from table-top.

I miss the weight system and interactble items, that might start somekind of dialog. Best example i come with is planescape torment.

bah - no weight system, please -.-

i hated that with elder scrolls games (and i still do)

in a way i hate limited inventory size, too - because it is a game, let me carry heaps of useless trash around (why drop stuff that fills up my bag, if my bag is too small for it all)

as for deciding on what to pick up, what to sell and all that:

yeah, it might make sens, but why not give me the space i need and i will sell when i find time, not when my bag is full like in an MMO, where unlike in most MMOs i can't leave certain encounters to sell stuff when my bag is full...

greetings LAX
ps: why do so many people enjoy play-work? (meaning playing a game where you have to "work" (doing stuff that is not exactly fun, because you simply have to)...sorry, but you have a job for that (or you go to university/school for this) and you should not need this in a game)

If I could find a job where all I had to do was move around digital items between five different inventories to make them all fit appropriately, I would be a very happy man. Unfortunately, a lot of jobs aren't like that. That isn't work to me. That's OCD organisation. It PLEASES me to sort out everything and make it all "fit". It makes me feel relieved when it's done, and I enjoy the mental activity involved in doing it. To me, that constitutes "fun". 

[nicethugbert]

Dysjong wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Dysjong wrote...

Manegin your items is part of what i consider RPG. Im used to it from table-top.

I miss the weight system and interactble items, that might start somekind of dialog. Best example i come with is planescape torment.

I wish the game had an item weight system, and wagons, and a quarter master and a trusty leutenant squire you could assign to protect your caravan and .......... and a way to shut it all off so I can concentrate on the story or the combat or whatever I want.

then look for another game. I don't mean to be rude but based on what you have said, it's my only advice to you.

That's besides the point.  Of course I look at other games.  I even buy more than one a year.

[Steppenwolf]

nicethugbert wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

In response to the OP, the devs have already said that they don't like putting in option sliders. So it's highly unlikely you'll get your wish. Mods might be able to help you if you play on PC.

Yeah, I've noticed their anti-choice tendancies despite game advertising and all the posts complaining about the lack of choice in games.

Bioware games boast choices that effect the story, not choices to assuage your OCD.

[daft inquisitor]

nicethugbert wrote...

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Tetris inventories are less efficient if the player doesn't bother managing them, but that's the player's fault. If the player takes a few minutes to sort things early on, the system becomes much less labour-intensive to use..

It's not fun. It isn't about the time invested - it's about how not fun it is.

Which, like many game mechanics, is a matter of opinion. I rather like inventory tetris, myself. A few others in the thread have said as much, as well. To each his own, and all that. 

Exactly!  To each his own.  That is exactly what I am proposing.  So glad you came around.

No. Not the same. What you're proposing, while not impossible, would be TORTURE on a programming side. To wit, the fact that you don't understand WHY it's so much trouble may in fact be part of the problem.

Trust me, baselines don't come along in one set number in one space that is never touched or moved. There's a lot more into the metrics and coding of all the numbers depending upon and relevent in an RPG system (and video games in general) than what you're giving credit to.

Take a course in programming. And I don't mean a 101, "This is the easy stuff, you program a calculator" type of programming course. I mean a REAL one. Then, I'll take some merit in you saying how "easy" it all is.

[DarthLaxian]

Dysjong wrote...

Darthlaxian -

For the same reason FPS limits the player on how many wepons the player can carry, realism. I actually liked the weight system in Oblivion and Skyrim. You could carry tons of stuff but you would become slow, so now you would have to ask yourself this, do you drop some of the loot you have found in order to move faster, thus lowering the chances for ambushes or are you greedy and confident that you want as much gold as you can?

and why would i want realism in games?

if i want that i will go outside and let reality "hit me in the face" and, some FPs do not limit you (or at least didn't till this "two guns only"-fad came up)

greetings LAX
ps: some realism is cool, but why put shackles on my bag size? (please don't tell me you like - an i mean really like - finite inventory space, even more so if you have to carry a lot of stuff around with you like in DA:O where you knew that you should be prepared for more companions to come joining up with you and thus had to be on the lookout for decent armor and weapons (and other stuff) for them!))