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[upsettingshorts]

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:39 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Kais Endac wrote...

As I see it the Warden is a blend of being proactive and reactive. Yes stopping the darkspawn from spreading and causing more devistation is proactive but the warden is reacting to events in the game as the happen and using them to either solve his own problem (the blight) or to futher destablise Logain.  

This* 

This is the essence of my point. The one thing most people here are missing is that you must first react in order to be proactive. The two words (Proactive,Reactive) are essentially responses to action in itself.

^ Move that Goalpost.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:05 .

[addiction21]

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that you have separated the cause (the blight) from the effect (it spreading).

And now apparently since proactive/reactive can be applied (to your logic) at anytime and place for whatever reason you pull out of this air the words are meaningless.

Both the Warden are proactive and reactive at all times in every situation so theres no point in even continuing this.

P.S.
I am rather sure Upsettingshorts was referring to you moving the goalposts.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

Some people simply don't see Dragon Age II and Hawke the same way you do.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

Some people simply don't see Dragon Age II and Hawke the same way you do.

Seeing something differently does not change the meaning of words.  It does not distort reality.

[AlexanderCousland]

addiction21 wrote...

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that you have separated the cause (the blight) from the effect (it spreading).

And now apparently since proactive/reactive can be applied (to your logic) at anytime and place for whatever reason you pull out of this air the words are meaningless.

Both the Warden are proactive and reactive at all times in every situation so theres no point in even continuing this.

P.S.
I am rather sure Upsettingshorts was referring to you moving the goalposts.

Actually my argument hinges upon the Plot of DAO and the Hero we are provided with as opposed to the "Hero" we are provided with in DA2, which stemmed the Proactive/Reactive debate, a debate which can cleary be proved In my favor with sound theory, not my logic.

Issac Newton " Every action has and EQUAL and opposite Reaction" Proactive and Reactive responses would be your types of reaction' s (because they are not Action' s standing alone) to the Blight. The Blight (Inertia) is set in to motion by the Architect' s action (external force)  3rd Law.  

Warden- Fight it before it spreads (Proactive Response)
Hawke - Run to Safety. (Reactive Response)

 
If you want to deny this, it' s certainly your perogative. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

Some people simply don't see Dragon Age II and Hawke the same way you do.

Seeing something differently does not change the meaning of words.  It does not distort reality.

Plenty of people have different opinions about Dragon Age II, and how Hawke comes across in the narrative. It can depend on how the viewpoints and opinions are phrased, I suppose. To me, Hawke is a character who has a tendency of standing idly by at certain occassions because the Plot railroads the player down a certain path, which makes Hawke come across as overly passive. For example: when Petrice reveals her plan to incite a war with the Qunari, Hawke just stands there, and Petrice simply walks out the door to perpetuate the murder of many innocent people because Hawke didn't stop her when he had a chance. When Meredith seizes power over Kirkwall as the de facto Viscount, Hawke doesn't seem to do anything about it until Orsino calls on Hawke to get involved in the situation three years later. When Tallis grabs a list detailing Qunari spies in Thedas, Hawke can't do anything to grab it.

There's a distinct difference in how The Warden seems to be active in going to different societies in Ferelden to gain allies and getting things done to stop the Blight, while Hawke is written to stand idly by and do nothing even in situations where Hawke is capable of getting things done. Hawke can kill Petrice and stop her; Hawke could try to do something about Meredith long before Orsino asks him to get involved by sheer coincidence. Hawke could have tried to grab the list from Tallis. The problem is, the writers didn't allow for those options, and Hawke seems overly passive as a consequence (to some people).

That's simply how it comes across to some people, like me. Opinions vary from person to person, of course.

[Commander Kurt]

Wow... I envy your level of energy and determination, guys. 12 pages and, really, no end in sight.

[Commander Kurt]

LobselVith8, I just wanted to say that I think those are reasonable concerns. It didn't bother me that much, but I do think that in games like ME we got to choose a response in those kind of instances. I see where you're coming from, certainly.

[Kais Endac]

Commander Kurt wrote...

Wow... I envy your level of energy and determination, guys. 12 pages and, really, no end in sight.

lol well if you can't beat them join them, Thats how I got involved and I only came onto this thread to say I supported the OP and I loved DAO and DA2.

There wont be an end to this discusion either, until a mod decides enough is enough and places it on lockdown.

(If I was a moderator though I would just sit back and watch the debate go back and forth)

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
snip
.

If in my opinion I stated this lump of coal is a diamond I guess that is okay?
That in my opinion the sky is purple with yellow polka dots and clouds are made of cotton candy that is just fine?
Water is dirt and dirt water.
Words have meaning and it has nothing to do with having a different opinion about a videogame that  you liked it not.
I am not a fan at all of Hawke just standing there and letting Tallis or Petrice walk off or the rest but that does not make the Warden proactive or Hawke more proactive.

FreshIstay wrote...


Warden- Fight it before it spreads (Proactive Response)
Hawke - Run to Safety. (Reactive Response)

Warden- Fighting the blight that has been spreading before they became a Warden (Reactive)
Hawke- Run to safety before they are killed by Darkspawn (proactive response)

But again your just picking out bits and pieces to apply as you wish so you are not wrong. Both are reacting to problems outside of their control.

Kais Endac wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

Wow... I envy your level of energy and determination, guys. 12 pages and, really, no end in sight.

lol well if you can't beat them join them, Thats how I got involved and I only came onto this thread to say I supported the OP and I loved DAO and DA2.

There wont be an end to this discussion either, until a mod decides enough is enough and places it on lockdown.

(If I was a moderator though I would just sit back and watch the debate go back and forth)

I tried but it just started getting silly and know with the quoting of physic laws I am just going to grab the popcorn and watch how much more silly this can become.

[Kais Endac]

addiction21 wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

Wow... I envy your level of energy and determination, guys. 12 pages and, really, no end in sight.

lol well if you can't beat them join them, Thats how I got involved and I only came onto this thread to say I supported the OP and I loved DAO and DA2.

There wont be an end to this discussion either, until a mod decides enough is enough and places it on lockdown.

(If I was a moderator though I would just sit back and watch the debate go back and forth)

I tried but it just started getting silly and know with the quoting of physic laws I am just going to grab the popcorn and watch how much more silly this can become.

yea that happened on another thread earlier It made no sense to the descusion so I left (I think the op was trying to argue that the geth were more powerful than the reapers or something ). Popcorn sounds like a good idea though 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:01 .

[AlexanderCousland]

FreshIstay wrote..


Warden- Fight it before it spreads (Proactive Response)
Hawke - Run to Safety. (Reactive Response)

Addiction 21 wrote....
Warden- Fighting the blight that has been spreading before they became a Warden (Reactive)
Hawke- Run to safety before they are killed by Darkspawn (proactive response)

But again your just picking out bits and pieces to apply as you wish so you are not wrong. Both are reacting to problems outside of their control.

Wether or not The Warden became a a Warden before the Blight HAS NO BEARING on the Warden' s TYPE of reaction/response. (Proactive/Reactive per their definitions) You refuse to accept that.

Again, I will supply you with sound theory.

Issac Newton "Every Action has an EQUAL and OPPOSITE reaction"  

The 5th Blight (Inertia) was set into motion by the Architect' s Action (External Force), the reaction was proactive (interference by the Warden with knowledge of the potential devestation) by the definition of the word. 

Hawke' s reaction to the Blight (running away with knowledge of it) was reactive, by the definition of the word.

There are type' s of reaction's, (proactive,reactive)

Stop confusing reactive with reaction, they arent the same, check the dictionary.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:23 .

[Sutekh]

FreshIstay wrote...

Stop confusing reactive with reaction, they arent the same, check the dictionary.

Your wish is my command.

Freedictionary.com:

re·ac·tive (r-ktv)
adj.
1. Tending to be responsive or to react to a stimulus.
2. Characterized by reaction.
3. Chemistry & Physics Tending to participate readily in reactions.

Merriam-Webster

Definition of REACTIVE

1: of, relating to, or marked by reaction or reactance
2:
a : readily responsive to a stimulus
b : occurring as a result of stress or emotional upset <reactive depression>

Examples of REACTIVE

The government's response to the problem was reactive rather than proactive.



I rest my case (this time for real, I swear).

[AlexanderCousland]

Sutekh wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Stop confusing reactive with reaction, they arent the same, check the dictionary.

Your wish is my command.

Freedictionary.com:

re·ac·tive (r-ktv)
adj.
1. Tending to be responsive or to react to a stimulus.
2. Characterized by reaction.
3. Chemistry & Physics Tending to participate readily in reactions.

Merriam-Webster

Definition of REACTIVE

1: of, relating to, or marked by reaction or reactance
2:
a : readily responsive to a stimulus
b : occurring as a result of stress or emotional upset <reactive depression>

Examples of REACTIVE

The government's response to the problem was reactive rather than proactive.



I rest my case (this time for real, I swear).

Your case is my point. (even though you left out plenty of definition' s of reactive)

Do you know what Characterized mean' s?  
Reactive by definition is a TYPE of reaction, which in case Proactive is a TYPE of reaction. They are not opposites, If you wish, you can look up synonyms and antonyms of both words.

So now that I've already given example' s of how the Plot of Origins requires the Warden react proactively (by definition) we should have no problem.

Proactive (adjective) Merriam Webster - having or showing awareness in preparation for the future http://www.merriam-w...rus/proactive. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:16 .

[jillabender]

RosaAquafire wrote...

The fact of the matter is that the monomyth doesn't resonate with everyone, and it only works for a specific type of story -- the story of a hero. It works for the 1.0 version of stories that we started telling to escape from the dullness of life and our own irrelevance, but the fact is that that isn't the only type of story that exists, and I'd argue it's a weaker story than one that's less built around trying to overdose us on a power fantasy.

I certainly give the writers credit for stepping outside of the typical "hero's journey" formula for DA2, but personally, the way they did it just didn't quite work for me.

I think part of my difficulty was that while the story, as you say, wasn't a typical power fantasy, and often had the main character in situations where he or she was powerless, the over-the-top combat situations, with Hawke mowing through wave after wave of enemies while leaping and whirling around the battlefield, felt very much like a power fantasy. And that kept me from being able to take seriously the idea of Hawke as an ordinary person helplessly caught up in events beyond his or her control.

I realize that might seem nit-picking to some, because not everyone shares my preferences for how combat should serve the story, but for me, it really created a sense of disconnect.

I had no problem with the idea of Hawke being swept up in events, suffering personal loss, and feeling frustrated and powerless - in fact, I love stories like that! The difficulty for me was that, with the exception of certain moments, I wasn't truly convinced that Hawke felt frustrated and powerless, because his or her demeanour just didn't convey that to me.

While the story was telling me to see Hawke as an ordinary person who never wanted to be a hero, the presentation of the story seemed to be telling me to see Hawke as over-the-top sexy and badass - and those two things just didn't jibe together for me.

If the overall presentation had been less over-the-top, and if there had been characters who were truly able to frighten and intimidate Hawke, I would probably have found it easier to buy into the idea of Hawke as an ordinary person caught up in a hopeless struggle to keep the peace.

Modifié par jillabender, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:23 .

[addiction21]

So both the Warden and Hawke are both reactive and proactive. Since either word is pretty much meaningless since we can selectively apply them where, when and how we feel like.
Why even use the for labels anymore?

[TheRealJayDee]

jillabender wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

The fact of the matter is that the monomyth doesn't resonate with everyone, and it only works for a specific type of story -- the story of a hero. It works for the 1.0 version of stories that we started telling to escape from the dullness of life and our own irrelevance, but the fact is that that isn't the only type of story that exists, and I'd argue it's a weaker story than one that's less built around trying to overdose us on a power fantasy.

I certainly give the writers credit for stepping outside of the typical "hero's journey" formula for DA2, but personally, the way they did it just didn't quite work for me.

I think part of my difficulty was that while the story, as you say, wasn't a typical power fantasy, and often had the main character in situations where he or she was powerless, the over-the-top combat situations, with Hawke mowing through wave after wave of enemies while leaping and whirling around the battlefield, felt very much like a power fantasy. And that kept me from being able to take seriously the idea of Hawke as an ordinary person helplessly caught up in events beyond his or her control.

I realize that might seem nit-picking to some, because not everyone shares my preferences for how combat should serve the story, but for me, it really created a sense of disconnect.

I had no problem with the idea of Hawke being swept up in events, suffering personal loss, and feeling frustrated and powerless - in fact, I love stories like that! The difficulty for me was that, with the exception of certain moments, I wasn't truly convinced that Hawke felt frustrated and powerless, because his or her demeanour just didn't convey that to me.

While the story was telling me to see Hawke as an ordinary person who never wanted to be a hero, the presentation of the story seemed to be telling me to see Hawke as over-the-top sexy and badass - and those two things just didn't jibe together for me.

If the overall presentation had been less over-the-top, and if there had been characters who were truly able to frighten and intimidate Hawke, I would probably have found it easier to buy into the idea of Hawke as an ordinary person caught up in a hopeless struggle to keep the peace.

This this this!! My thoughts and feelings on the matter 100%, thank you so much for putting them into words! 

There is a massive disparity between the story and the gameplay and presentation. And I'd say it's a general problem in most RPGs that tend to have a huge focus on combat, but even more so in DA2. It's difficult to tell a story about an ordinary guy who gets drawn into unfortunate and tragic events, and that deals with pain, loss and helplessness, when said ordinary guy casually slaughters his way through a myriad of faceless, nameless goons every day while doing over the top backflips. Violence, killing, death, loss - how can these be things that effectively affect the player or the character if large parts of the game consist of the uncritical slaying of dozens, no, at least hundreds of people, who themselves don't seem to possess any apparent instinct of self preservation?

Playing Hawke should feel a lot like playing Lee Everett from The Walking Dead, but instead it feels entirely too much like playing Kratos.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:29 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

If in my opinion I stated this lump of coal is a diamond I guess that is okay?
That in my opinion the sky is purple with yellow polka dots and clouds are made of cotton candy that is just fine?
Water is dirt and dirt water.
Words have meaning and it has nothing to do with having a different opinion about a videogame that  you liked it not.
I am not a fan at all of Hawke just standing there and letting Tallis or Petrice walk off or the rest but that does not make the Warden proactive or Hawke more proactive.

Perhaps it would be better phrased to say Hawke came across as overly passive to some people, even though it was within his power to do something in those specific situations. It colors how some people view Hawke when he is powerless simply because the Plot demands that he does nothing about Petrice, Meredith, or Tallis. It's his passivity that made some people feel like Hawke went into a coma at times in the main story. I think some people would feel much differently if Hawke at least tried to do something, even if he didn't succeed.

[Kais Endac]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

If in my opinion I stated this lump of coal is a diamond I guess that is okay?
That in my opinion the sky is purple with yellow polka dots and clouds are made of cotton candy that is just fine?
Water is dirt and dirt water.
Words have meaning and it has nothing to do with having a different opinion about a videogame that  you liked it not.
I am not a fan at all of Hawke just standing there and letting Tallis or Petrice walk off or the rest but that does not make the Warden proactive or Hawke more proactive.

Perhaps it would be better phrased to say Hawke came across as overly passive to some people, even though it was within his power to do something in those specific situations. It colors how some people view Hawke when he is powerless simply because the Plot demands that he does nothing about Petrice, Meredith, or Tallis. It's his passivity that made some people feel like Hawke went into a coma at times in the main story. I think some people would feel much differently if Hawke at least tried to do something, even if he didn't succeed.

Ah but then people would complain that Hawke was too weak, it's a no win scenario really damned if you do damned if you don't.

I know one thing though I'm a terrible loser, I don't mind losing to a human but to a computer..... yea that never turns out well. (DOA4 kasumi clone comes to mind damn cheating teleporting overpowered b****). Overall I think that makes the game better though because it punishes you for mistakes and keeps you playing.

But when the plot forces me to lose I get quite unhappy (its especially bad where I destroy the person in game then lose in cutscenes). Got to admit though it makes the feeling when you finally get the person all the better, the blow can be softened though when the scene is done well and the disconnect between gameplay and cutscenes is softer (eg. the boss is extremly hard to defeat)(Edit: or you simply lose both in gameplay and cutscene)

I think Beatrix in FF9 is a good example you can hurt her but she is clearly more powerful than you so when you do lose it's not out of the blue (although you can't actually beat her, but when she attacks she pretty much KO's the character in question so the power is clearly there).

Being outplayed or outsmarted works too as long as you were genuinly outsmarted. Not just hey I'm gonna stand here and let you kill that person or I'm going to use my assault rifle as a pistol and fire 2 shots at your seemingly invicible shields *cough* Kai Leng *cough*.

Of course if you love the story you usually forget or forgive these problems and they become a footnote. 
DA2 and ME3 are ultimately this for me there are encounters that are irritating but I still love them and have quite a few characters of different classes saved.

Just started DA2 again actually gonna do a pro-templar mage Hawke

And it occurs to me now that I have finished that I have gone completly off the original point <_< 

Edit: What I meant to say is that the story will never please everyone, failing (in game) can result in people complaining but if the scene is well done and the story believable there is usually no problem.

Hawke for me does his best to set things right in Kirkwall but is not always sucessful hence his mother dying, and the attempts to please the Qunari ultimatly failing. Hawke along with people like the Grand Cleric fail to realise/or act on the severity of the fight between Meridth and Orsino which again leads to a big problem.

For me this adds a level of depth to their characters, you realise that these people *are* human and through sloth/denial/inaction or any combination of things miss or ignore sometimes important events. It allows you to see that Hawke is not a perfect killing machine capable of picking out plots and events before they happen but a human with the failings the rest of us have.  

Modifié par Kais Endac, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:07 .

[AlexanderCousland]

addiction21 wrote...

So both the Warden and Hawke are both reactive and proactive. Since either word is pretty much meaningless since we can selectively apply them where, when and how we feel like.
Why even use the for labels anymore?

IMHO, because I cant see anything proactive about Hawke at all. Hawke does nothing with the knowledgedge he posses about potential problem' s until they blow up in his face. 

Im more then willing to change my position, but no poster has said anything about Hawke to respresent him as a proactive PC.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Perhaps it would be better phrased to say Hawke came across as overly passive to some people, even though it was within his power to do something in those specific situations. It colors how some people view Hawke when he is powerless simply because the Plot demands that he does nothing about Petrice, Meredith, or Tallis. It's his passivity that made some people feel like Hawke went into a coma at times in the main story. I think some people would feel much differently if Hawke at least tried to do something, even if he didn't succeed.

Yes, passive is a good word and one I have used in the past and its only exacerbated by how many times it happen "for the plot"

FreshIstay wrote...

IMHO, because I cant see anything proactive about Hawke at all. Hawke does nothing with the knowledgedge he posses about potential problem' s until they blow up in his face. 

Im more then willing to change my position, but no poster has said anything about Hawke to respresent him as a proactive PC.

Nope sorry, it does not work that way. As you have repeatedly argued the cause and effect are totally separate and one can be proactive by taking steps to stop the effect. Which Hawke does. So they are either both proactive or both reactive.

See this is the thing I keep mentioning. How you selectively apply the definitions as you want, where you want, and how you want. What is the point in a definition if they mean whatever you want them to as you need them to?

But Duncan on the other hand. Remember him? That guy who covers the possibility of things going sideways and orders you to retrieve the treaties. Ya, I suspect he doesn't matter either but the Warden just comes up with all that on their own.

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

I think they sell goalposts on wheels these days.

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The goalposts are moving around with shocking speed and regularity, as posters desperately cling to the motivated reasoning that's keeping their assumptions afloat.

I think they sell goalposts on wheels these days.

Pretty sure this is the deluxe edition. Wings and a jet engine included. The spoiler and badass racing strip is extra.

Anyway I think I am really done and will now go on the hunt to find something even less productive to do with my time.