330 réponses à ce sujet

[Kais Endac]

wow   you're all still at it after a good 5 pages, people are still arguing over proactive and reactive, never mind the fact that it has nothing to do with the OP. Must be a hot topic to you all, but wouldn't it be better to open a topic and discuss it rather than bog this thread down in things that have nothing to do with the original post. I admit your arguments are intriguing (both sides) but opening another thread might be better before a moderator locks it. 
Anyway glad to see their are people that (like me) like both games, and that there are people that passionately argue their points.
Excuse me while I abandon ship again (hopefully for good this time, I was hoping it would go back to the original topic) cya

[jillabender]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nobody is arguing that Hawke is more proactive than the Warden.  Nobody is arguing that Hawke is uniquely proactive and the Warden is not.  What is being argued is that neither are proactive, and BioWare protagonists are never proactive, and have to operate under the same conceit:  That of the errand boy.  Because that's how these games work and always have. 

What is being argued here is that some people believe the illusion of choice offered to the Warden is more satisfying than the illusion of choice being offered to Hawke.  Others disagree.  Objectively, there is no difference.  Subjectively, there's all the difference in the world.  

What In Exile is arguing is precisely that:  There is no objective difference.  You are responding by declaring that your subjective experience is objective truth.

I would agree that from a purely objective point of view, DA:O doesn't necessarily offer more choices than DA2 in any given situation, nor does it necessarily offer choices that have more in-game consequences.

From a more subjective point of view, however, I would say that the games offer quite different kinds of agency to the player.

I agree with how you've described the player's influence over DA2's narrative as being more about the "why" than the "what" of the main character's choices. The story of DA2 has already happened, and we learn as the story unfolds that Hawke was caught up in events beyond his or her control, and played a role in precipitating a crisis without ever intending to. All of that is outside of the player's control - but it's up to the player to decide why Hawke made the choices that ultimately set certain events in motion.

I think my difficulty was that while I had some input into what Hawke's motivations were, I wasn't quite satisfied because I didn't fully buy into Hawke's motivations. This was partly because I never really had the sense (with the exception of the quest "All That Remains") that Hawke truly felt anxiety about how things would turn out, either for him or her personally or for Kirkwall, and that made it hard for me to feel invested in what happened to him or her.

But maybe that's just me. In any case, I know that the writers plan to make DA3 a very different kind of narrative, so I'm not too concerned that my problems with Hawke's story in particular will repeat themselves.

Modifié par jillabender, 15 janvier 2013 - 04:57 .

[LobselVith8]

Kais Endac wrote...

wow   you're all still at it after a good 5 pages, people are still arguing over proactive and reactive, never mind the fact that it has nothing to do with the OP. Must be a hot topic to you all, but wouldn't it be better to open a topic and discuss it rather than bog this thread down in things that have nothing to do with the original post. I admit your arguments are intriguing (both sides) but opening another thread might be better before a moderator locks it. 
Anyway glad to see their are people that (like me) like both games, and that there are people that passionately argue their points.
Excuse me while I abandon ship again (hopefully for good this time, I was hoping it would go back to the original topic) cya

You're right. That wasn't the intent of the OP. All I did here was argue with people I've disagreed with for years about pretty much everything. For my part, I'm sorry.

[Kais Endac]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

wow   you're all still at it after a good 5 pages, people are still arguing over proactive and reactive, never mind the fact that it has nothing to do with the OP. Must be a hot topic to you all, but wouldn't it be better to open a topic and discuss it rather than bog this thread down in things that have nothing to do with the original post. I admit your arguments are intriguing (both sides) but opening another thread might be better before a moderator locks it. 
Anyway glad to see their are people that (like me) like both games, and that there are people that passionately argue their points.
Excuse me while I abandon ship again (hopefully for good this time, I was hoping it would go back to the original topic) cya

You're right. That wasn't the intent of the OP. All I did here was argue with people I've disagreed with for years about pretty much everything. For my part, I'm sorry.

Damn I'm back:pinched:  I wasn't trying to have a go at anyone, I've actually kept the window open to read people's posts they are quite interesting. I just thought it would be good if the whole proactive thing would move to it's own thread while the OP's thread returns to topic.

I would read both then and join in . I love arguements (I suppose debate is a better term to use) and will sometimes play devil's advocate to keep them going lol. (well as long as it doesn't get to aggressive then it just becomes stupid)

(I'm not actually sure how the moderators act on off topic threads on bsn)

Modifié par Kais Endac, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:37 .

[addiction21]

Kais Endac wrote...


(I'm not actually sure how the moderators act on off topic threads on bsn)

Well if they felt this was not DA3 related it would of been locked a long time ago.

My guess is that its been left open because there is a somewhat healthy (using the term loosely) talk about whats good and bad and its something they can read.

[batlin]

In Exile wrote...

Oh, so you're not going to get back to all of those lies you've been telling? Like about the difficulty? Remind me again how nightmare in DA2 is only about more HP, and remind me after that how it differs from DA:O?

Ok, here's how each difficulty tier works in DA:O



Quite a bit more to it than in DA2.

"Getting a task in return" doesn't make you less of an errand boy.

Yes it does. If you have a problem with the Warden being an errand boy, then you also have a problem with the Fellowship of the Ring, Luke Skywalker, and Indiana Jones being errand boys.

The archdemon would like to have a word with you on that one.

Loghain is the direct obstacle to building an army to stopping the archdemon. For the majority of the game, he's the primary threat.

By the way, I skipped all your arguments that are pathetically semantic or pointless to save us both time. But oh well.

I remember how the Warden sought out Duncan, and immediately conscripted himself into the Wardens to kill the darkspawn before the archdemon was even awakend.

As soon as the opportunity to join the wardens presented itself, the Warden joined. he didn't sit around in his house until the Archdemon woke up, he actually worked to stop it.

(A) Hawke has no official position.
( Hawke has no official obligation.
© Hawke is personally responsible for resolving the Qunari threat to Kirkwall.

Well I guess if Hawke isn't obligated to do anything to solve Kirkwall's problems then I guess that means it's ok that he is completely unheroic in how he sits comfortably in his mansion as tensions between mages and templars mount as well as the Qunari becoming more and more obvious of a threat. Yeah, that's way more heroic than how the Warden risks his life to join the wardens so that he can save the world as soon as the opportunity arises. Good job, Hawke.

You mean, every single encounter. You can clean out the mooks with other spells. Once the knockdown hits them, they're dead before they get up.

No, I mean every 20 seconds you could potentially deal 300 damage. If you're now saying that fireball requires the aid of other spells to be effective, then fireball clearly isn't the end-all-be-all spell you made it out to be.

Wait, you mean that your rogue with 70 cunning can auto-attack his way to destroying every encounter, without tactics? Wow! That's brilliant! I'm so glad we agree that DA:O was a joke, and that there wasn't any substantive difficultly.

Any enemy that is not a trash mob has significantly higher HP than 300, Einstein.

Wonderful. Mana clash. Game over. Mages are worthless in DA:O.

Good job, so how do you deal with the other mages in the room in the 40 seconds it takes for that spell to cool down after using it once?

You're not very bright. I was mocking you. I picked a screenshot at random on the internet, and then lied about how tactical the encounter is. I'm not pretending DA2 is some tactical masterpiece. You're the one that's doing that for DA:O.

Oh I see, so whenever I make a statement that is untrue I am a dirty liar, but whenever you make an untrue statement you're mocking me. Whatever you say, bro.

Modifié par batlin, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:48 .

[Masha Potato]

batlin wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Oh, so you're not going to get back to all of those lies you've been telling? Like about the difficulty? Remind me again how nightmare in DA2 is only about more HP, and remind me after that how it differs from DA:O?

Ok, here's how each difficulty tier works in DA:O



Quite a bit more to it than in DA2.

Unless you find the equivalent table for DA2 it's not a valid argument

[batlin]

Masha Potato wrote...

Unless you find the equivalent table for DA2 it's not a valid argument

As far as I can tell, no such table exists for DA2. However, in addition to higher enemy HP, nightmare mode in DA2 turns friendly fire on, rogues will sometimes steal potions from you, warriors will sometimes taunt your party off their targets, and certain enemies become immune to some types of elemental damage (dragons are immune to fire, etc.)

All-in-all, the increased HP would be the most noticeable (read: only relevant) difference.

[addiction21]

Hey boys and girls its another fun exercise in batlin logic.

Your chart does not matter because it is not relevant. Why? Because I say so.
Any picture or meme you post is not relevant. Why? Because I say so
Your opinion is not relevant. Why? You guessed it! Because I say so.

So we have now moved from there being no other changes other then health between difficulty levels. To none of the changes are relevant.

When in a discussion or debate kids its bad form to wave your hand and try to magically dismiss any opposing evidence.

[batlin]

addiction21 wrote...

Hey boys and girls its another fun exercise in batlin logic.

Your chart does not matter because it is not relevant. Why? Because I say so.
Any picture or meme you post is not relevant. Why? Because I say so
Your opinion is not relevant. Why? You guessed it! Because I say so.

So we have now moved from there being no other changes other then health between difficulty levels. To none of the changes are relevant.

When in a discussion or debate kids its bad form to wave your hand and try to magically dismiss any opposing evidence.

What opposing evidence?

[In Exile]

[quote]batlin wrote...
Quite a bit more to it than in DA2. [/quote]

Less, actually. In DA2, rogue stealth attacks bypass armour and they can steal potions (though I can't recall if this was patched out). Your AOEs are devastating, so you can't be as careless. Your table shoes that nightmare on DA:O has:

1) FF at 100% (FF is far more punishing in DA2)
2) No attack/defence bonuses for the player.
3) Decreased healing (DA2 has decreased healing generally - no more potion spamming on any difficultly, instead of chugging 3 different pots in a row).
4) Enemies have a resistance bonus (in DA2, enemies have resistances).
5) Potion cap - same idea as in DA2.
6) Trap dmg - LOL at the idea that traps matter in DA:O or DA2.

So, no, just on the table alone, there's absolutely no difference between DA:O and DA2 (well, beside your statement that there is, but you're doing that thing where you lie through your teeth to prove a point on the internet). To the extent that there is a difference, it's in DA2's favour.

This ignores that enemies in DA2 are far more devastating on nightmare - mages (blood or sarebas) can 1-hit KO you with their AOEs, Assasins can stealth and have to be forced out of it to avoid their massive damage. That adds variety beyond DA:O's mobs that politely stay there and wait for you to kill them.

You also don't have cheese abilities like Mana Clash and the room clearing Storm of the Century (if you really want to be cheap) or just the regular cheap AOEs like Inferno and Tempest that you can cast through walls.

[quote]Yes it does. [/quote]

No, it doesn't.

[quote]If you have a problem with the Warden being an errand boy, then you also have a problem with the Fellowship of the Ring, Luke Skywalker, and Indiana Jones being errand boys. [/quote]

The Fellowship of the Ring is an errand, and Frodo is the very definition of an errand boy.

[quote]Loghain is the direct obstacle to building an army to stopping the archdemon.[/quote]

No, he isn't. Loghain has nothing to do with Orzammar or the Brecillian Forest. And he's not the antagonist in the Circle Tower - the abomination that Uldred became is.

If you want to have this debate, go on over to the old "Let's have an antagonist like Loghain thread". People already beat this horse dead right there.

[quote]For the majority of the game, he's the primary threat.[/quote]

No, he isn't. He doesn't do anything to threaten you. He sends one assasin after you - Zevran. The archdemon does the same. Beyond that, all he does is poison Eamon.

[quote]By the way, I skipped all your arguments that are pathetically semantic or pointless to save us both time. But oh well.[/quote]

Right. Well, let's have fun quoting you backtrack some more:

"Following their orders..."
"The Warden meanwhile follows no one's orders."

"Following their orders..."
"The Warden meanwhile follows no one's orders."

... That felt good.

[quote]As soon as the opportunity to join the wardens presented itself, the Warden joined. [/quote]

Actually, no. Duncan can forcibly conscript you in each case.

But let's play that game: as soon as the opportunity presents itself, Hawke works with the Viscount to ease tensions with the Qunari, who you'll note (if you actually played the game) aren't a threat. The qunari aren't doing anything except getting poked at by Petrice to start a war.

[quote]he didn't sit around in his house until the Archdemon woke up,[/quote]

Hahahah! Do you know what a blight is? That's actually literally how DA:O starts.

Oh, man, that's too funny. The "Warden" wasn't a Warden when the archdemon woke up. Our Aeducan was chillaxing before getting his first command, our Mages were sleeping cozy before their Harrowing, the CE was chilling with Shanni in the alienage, the Dalish were wandering about and the Couslands were chilling at Highever.

[quote]Well I guess if Hawke isn't obligated to do anything to solve Kirkwall's problems [/quote]

Don't burn out that lightbulb too quickly with these inferences.

[quote]then I guess that means it's ok that he is completely unheroic in how he sits comfortably in his mansion as tensions between mages and templars mount [/quote]

Ah, now we're using the word "unheroic". I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of. I don't think Hawke is proactive.

[quote]as well as the Qunari becoming more and more obvious of a threat. [/quote]

You're as wrong about this as you are ignorant of what a blight is, apparently. The Qunari weren't a threat, and didn't even do anything until they were antagonized. The only incident with them that results in a loss of life before the Arishok loses his **** is the incident with gass-instead-of-gunpowder, and that only happens because of anti-Qunari Kirkwall residents attempting to antagonize them.

[quote]Yeah, that's way more heroic than how the Warden risks his life to join the wardens so that he can save the world as soon as the opportunity arises. [/quote]

I feel bad debating with you. It's like kicking a particularly slow turtle.

[quote]If you're now saying that fireball requires the aid of other spells to be effective, then fireball clearly isn't the end-all-be-all spell you made it out to be. [/quote]

I didn't say it requires other spells to be effective. That's garbage that you added.

I said that fireball does significant damage and knocks enemies down. By the time they get up, they're dead. That's what makes fireball so powerful: it not only deals massive damage, it stuns enemies.

[quote]Any enemy that is not a trash mob has significantly higher HP than 300, Einstein. [/quote]

I'm going to quote myself again, since your dodge was especially pathetic in this quote:

MOI:you mean that your rogue with 70 cunning can auto-attack his way to destroying every encounter

Why did I do that? Because I want to quote this next bit:

YOU:What do you do when all your abilities are on cooldown? Mindlessly
whack enemies while you wait for your abilities to come back. It's
mindless combat.

So, your way of playing DA:O is to "mindlessly whack enemies" without even waiting for your abilities to come back? You don't need to be so harsh on yourself.

[quote]Good job, so how do you deal with the other mages in the room in the 40 seconds it takes for that spell to cool down after using it once? [/quote]

Mana Clash. Told you. 3 mages. The only time Mana Clash doesn't work on the first go is when you have a mage boss that has 1000s of HP.

[quote]Oh I see, so whenever I make a statement that is untrue I am a dirty liar,[/quote]

You could be very clean for all I know. 

[quote]but whenever you make an untrue statement you're mocking me. Whatever you say, bro.[/quote]

Let's quote what you said: how you poo-poo my three examples of tactical situations in DA:O
claiming I cherry-picked them, and then you only provide one example of a
"tactical" combat in DA2

Oh, noes! You used the word "bro". That's like... the biggest possible insult. Please, please don't call me son in your next post. A meme that old, and I'll just cry! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

I didn't provide an example. I pointed out how incredibly stupid it is to grab three screenshots at random and pretend like they represent the game as a whole. I took it one further - I found a screenshot that contradicts your statement, and declared victory. Because that's how arguments work, right? You just cherry pick facts.

Let's review what you said:

(1) every encounter in DA2 is the same
(2) EVERY ENCOUNTER puts you in a big, featureless area
(3) where waves of the same enemy drop out of the sky from the edges where you cut them down as quickly as they arrive

So I:

(1) Picked a bad internet screenshot (to parallel your picking of bad internet screenshots, i.e., mockery).
(2) Pointed out that each box is a trap that releases fire.
(3) Pointed out that the mage appears on the traps in
random order.
(4) Pointed out that to get in mele range, you have to pass through the trap.

If you stand still and used ranged attacks, you might win. Except for the mage's AOE. But you can just get rid of that with ranged CCCs. But that isn't the point.

What you said is: (i) every encounter in DA2 is the same. That's false. Why? Because the random internet screenshot I picked is (a) not a big, featureless area (it's a small and cramped area); and ( there are no waves of enemies that drop out of the sky from the edges. These are plainly false. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:35 .

[killswitch423]

"Yeah, that's way more heroic than how the Warden risks his life to join the wardens so that he can save the world as soon as the opportunity arises."

Okay I can't stay out of this any longer. This is just flat-out wrong - not a SINGLE Warden proactively seeks out the Wardens to join them and stop the blight. In fact, most are given no other choice but certain death.

Human Noble - Would have been killed alongside his parents if Duncan hand't been there, and if Howe never attacked, would have just been hanging out playing noble in HIghever while his brother does the actual fighting.

Dwarf Noble - No Duncan? Lost to the deep roads forever in exile. If Bhelen hadn't staged his plan, would just be a Commander for House Aeducan, possibly Endrin's successor.

Dwarf Commoner - Dead for sure, by the darkspawn in the deep roads if not by Jarvia and her gang, possibly even Leske. Possibly a carta member like Leske himself, though.

Dalish Elf - Dead from the Blight like Tamlen if Duncan didn't make her join the Wardens. If Tamlen never touched the mirror, then still wandering with her clan.

City Elf - Hung for crimes against humans. If the girls were never kidnapped, married to whatsername and still living with Shianni in the Alienage.

Mage - Imprisoned or sentenced to death for conspiring with the Blood Mage Jowan. Best case scenario? Escape with Jowan and assist in the plot to kill Eamon. Yeah THAT turned out well. Without Jowan, would still be a member of the Circle Tower and possibly dead during the demon infestation, though best-case survives with Wynne.

I'm sorry, I understand if you want to head-canon your Warden being a super-proactive do-gooder ready to join the Wardens and give his/her life but the facts of the events in each Origin are undeniable. If you want to make an argument for the Warden's proactivity after being conscripted go ahead, but don't act like becoming a Warden was ever a choice.

[AlexanderCousland]

In Exile wrote...
Right. Well, let's have fun quoting you backtrack some more:

"Following their orders..."
"The Warden meanwhile follows no one's orders."

"Following their orders..."
"The Warden meanwhile follows no one's orders."

... That felt good

After Duncan dies who' s order' s did you follow? and I mean actual order' s not trades, which means the exchange of goods or services, in case your unaware.

In Exile wrote...

Duncan can forcibly conscript you in each case.

Becoming a Grey Warden is a fudemental requirement of the game, It' s a subjective matter if you want to join or not.

In Exile wrote...
But let's play that game: as soon as the opportunity presents itself, Hawke works with the Viscount to ease tensions with the Qunari, who you'll note (if you actually played the game) aren't a threat.

You mean when the Viscount summons you and "orders" you to Deal with the Qunari, Funny how you see THAT as working together, It' s clearly and order from a Superior Official, but I digress.

In Exile...

That's actually literally how DA:O starts.

The "Warden" wasn't a Warden when the archdemon woke up. Our Aeducan was chillaxing before getting his first command, our Mages were sleeping cozy before their Harrowing, the CE was chilling with Shanni in the alienage, the Dalish were wandering about and the Couslands were chilling at Highever.

Right, and since the Warden wasnt a Warden at the time, He couldnt have known the Architect woke Urthimiel, which is why the game went through a number of cutscenes depending upon Character Race to show you why the Warden became a Warden, and proceeded to show you the devastation the Blight coud cause and then sent you on your way to handle the situation how your Warden deem' s fit

In Exile wrote..
You're as wrong about this as you are ignorant of what a blight is, apparently. The Qunari weren't a threat, and didn't even do anything until they were antagonized. The only incident with them that results in a loss of life before the Arishok loses his **** is the incident with gass-instead-of-gunpowder, and that only happens because of anti-Qunari Kirkwall residents attempting to antagonize them.

 

This is where your wrong, The Qunari werent leaving, they never intended to leave because Isabela stole their relic, that would be the "Filth" the Arishok speaks of, meanwhile they were causing problem' s in the city because they were converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun, which caused friction with Aveline and the guard and yes the were being anotgonized, but let' s not act like they were a peaceful bunch. 

[Kais Endac]

N7_killswitch wrote...

"Yeah, that's way more heroic than how the Warden risks his life to join the wardens so that he can save the world as soon as the opportunity arises."

Okay I can't stay out of this any longer. This is just flat-out wrong - not a SINGLE Warden proactively seeks out the Wardens to join them and stop the blight. In fact, most are given no other choice but certain death.

Human Noble - Would have been killed alongside his parents if Duncan hand't been there, and if Howe never attacked, would have just been hanging out playing noble in HIghever while his brother does the actual fighting.

Dwarf Noble - No Duncan? Lost to the deep roads forever in exile. If Bhelen hadn't staged his plan, would just be a Commander for House Aeducan, possibly Endrin's successor.

Dwarf Commoner - Dead for sure, by the darkspawn in the deep roads if not by Jarvia and her gang, possibly even Leske. Possibly a carta member like Leske himself, though.

Dalish Elf - Dead from the Blight like Tamlen if Duncan didn't make her join the Wardens. If Tamlen never touched the mirror, then still wandering with her clan.

City Elf - Hung for crimes against humans. If the girls were never kidnapped, married to whatsername and still living with Shianni in the Alienage.

Mage - Imprisoned or sentenced to death for conspiring with the Blood Mage Jowan. Best case scenario? Escape with Jowan and assist in the plot to kill Eamon. Yeah THAT turned out well. Without Jowan, would still be a member of the Circle Tower and possibly dead during the demon infestation, though best-case survives with Wynne.

I'm sorry, I understand if you want to head-canon your Warden being a super-proactive do-gooder ready to join the Wardens and give his/her life but the facts of the events in each Origin are undeniable. If you want to make an argument for the Warden's proactivity after being conscripted go ahead, but don't act like becoming a Warden was ever a choice.

You're right not one origin seeks out the wardens and the fate of all but one is sealed.

Like you said --->
Human Noble: Killed by Howe's men (after all the only reason he runs is because Duncan pratically forces him to)

City Elf:  Imprisioned without duncan to use the right of conscription, most likely dead because he is not in the arl of denerim's jail like his cousin(?) who you find near vaughan's cell after killing Howe.

Dalish: dies of the taint

Dwarf Noble: Dies in the deep road

Dwarf Commoner: dies in the carta prision you actually see  Leske he says something like "my companion just stopped eating one day" I think his body is in one of the cells.

Mage:This one is iffy due to the fact you can work with the first enchanter to expose Jowan so that could go either way.

Each origin can express admiration for the wardens and volunteer themseves for service, they do not have to be conscripted but that is entirely up to the player 


I've just looked at the conversations with duncan in the toolset there is an option for each origin to express curiosity and a certain eagerness to join the wardens (or not it's entirely up to the player some will tell duncan to shove off and be conscripted anyway)
the most obvious example is the dwarf noble actually asking during his first meeting with duncan "I wonder if Father would allow me to join you."

Edit: The choice is just cosmetic either way you will join the wardens but the illusion is there for players to choose.

Personally I could care less about proactive or reactive as long as I can enjoy the game (which I do)

FreshIstay wrote...
This is where your wrong, The Qunari werent leaving, they never intended to leave because Isabela stole their relic, that would be the "Filth" the Arishok speaks of, meanwhile they were causing problem' s in the city because they were converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun, which caused friction with Aveline and the guard and yes the were being anotgonized, but let' s not act like they were a peaceful bunch. 

The Qunari were actually stuck their ship was wrecked there was no help coming from Par Vollen and they could not leave without the relic, however they had no intentions to convert the city (a fact that the Arishock confirms in game however he will not turn away converts).

The Qunari existed in Kirkwall for a good three years before the factions in the chantry pushed them too far. They actually ignored several insults even the killing of the delegates sent to the Viscount. But in the end they were pushed too far. I believe that towards the end the Arishock (who had till then tolerated the abuse) simply waited for justification to attack and take over the city. 

Let's face it though the Qunari are not content to leave the nations of Thedas alone. The Arishock's mission was not to convert that didn't mean he was opposed to it. The fact that he does attack the city and kills those who he *knows* had nothing to do with the attacks against his people is proof enough to his intentions.

They do leave peacefully if the relic is handed back to them (well after laying waste to the city)

Modifié par Kais Endac, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:36 .

[AlexanderCousland]

N7_killswitch wrote...

"Yeah, that's way more heroic than how the Warden risks his life to join the wardens so that he can save the world as soon as the opportunity arises."

Okay I can't stay out of this any longer. This is just flat-out wrong - not a SINGLE Warden proactively seeks out the Wardens to join them and stop the blight. In fact, most are given no other choice but certain death.

Human Noble - Would have been killed alongside his parents if Duncan hand't been there, and if Howe never attacked, would have just been hanging out playing noble in HIghever while his brother does the actual fighting.

Dwarf Noble - No Duncan? Lost to the deep roads forever in exile. If Bhelen hadn't staged his plan, would just be a Commander for House Aeducan, possibly Endrin's successor.

Dwarf Commoner - Dead for sure, by the darkspawn in the deep roads if not by Jarvia and her gang, possibly even Leske. Possibly a carta member like Leske himself, though.

Dalish Elf - Dead from the Blight like Tamlen if Duncan didn't make her join the Wardens. If Tamlen never touched the mirror, then still wandering with her clan.

City Elf - Hung for crimes against humans. If the girls were never kidnapped, married to whatsername and still living with Shianni in the Alienage.

Mage - Imprisoned or sentenced to death for conspiring with the Blood Mage Jowan. Best case scenario? Escape with Jowan and assist in the plot to kill Eamon. Yeah THAT turned out well. Without Jowan, would still be a member of the Circle Tower and possibly dead during the demon infestation, though best-case survives with Wynne.

I'm sorry, I understand if you want to head-canon your Warden being a super-proactive do-gooder ready to join the Wardens and give his/her life but the facts of the events in each Origin are undeniable. If you want to make an argument for the Warden's proactivity after being conscripted go ahead, but don't act like becoming a Warden was ever a choice.

Being Proactive does not require you to seek the Order out (of which there is no option to do so), being Proactive only requires that you have knowledge of a perceived problem and doing something about it on your own merit. Now, The Warden leads his party throughout the course of the game and makes a host of descesions in order to prevent the perceived problem the Blight could cause Ferelden and other nations, If you arguement is "Well Flemeth said, Or Duncan told you", Duncan Died, Flemeth didnt tell you HOW to do anything, only that something needed to be done. Alistair made a SUGGESTION that you should see the Arl first, you can Do the Arl' s quest after The Circle, Dalsih, Orzammar quests. Nobody is standing over your warden going do this do that, if you dont do it, Ferelden dies or you have no desire to play the game itself.  

Hawke however is just reacting to problem' s his companions create, Isabela, Anders etc. The glaring argument seems to be the Qunari in Act 2, but the Viscount spearheaded that whole situation, He was trying to proactively bring peace to Kirkwall, not Hawke, and the Arishok promptly beheaded him for it. 

[AlexanderCousland]

double post

Modifié par FreshIstay, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:45 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Kais Endac wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
This is where your wrong, The Qunari werent leaving, they never intended to leave because Isabela stole their relic, that would be the "Filth" the Arishok speaks of, meanwhile they were causing problem' s in the city because they were converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun, which caused friction with Aveline and the guard and yes the were being anotgonized, but let' s not act like they were a peaceful bunch. 

The Qunari were actually stuck their ship was wrecked there was no help coming from Par Vollen and they could not leave without the relic, however they had no intentions to convert the city (a fact that the Arishock confirms in game however he will not turn away converts).

The Qunari existed in Kirkwall for a good three years before the factions in the chantry pushed them too far. They actually ignored several insults even the killing of the delegates sent to the Viscount. But in the end they were pushed too far. I believe that towards the end the Arishock (who had till then tolerated the abuse) simply waited for justification to attack and take over the city.  

Let's face it though the Qunari are not content to leave the nations of Thedas alone. The Arishock's mission was not to convert that didn't mean he was opposed to it. They do leave peacefully if the relic is handed back to them (well after laying waste to the city)

Does any of what you just said, (although I agree with some points) mean that the Qunari werent converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun?  

[ggghhhxxxpuf]

FreshIstay wrote...

After Duncan dies who' s order' s did you follow? and I mean actual order' s not trades, which means the exchange of goods or services, in case your unaware.

Grey Wardens organization's orders through Alistair, Morrigan and Flemeth's advice.

You mean when the Viscount summons you and "orders" you to Deal with the Qunari, Funny how you see THAT as working together, It' s clearly and order from a Superior Official, but I digress.

Hawke follows the Vicount's directives, the Warden follows The Wardens directive.
In both games you have a task, that was given to you, to complete, and there is nothing wrong with that. Why you people think that doing a given task in a VG  is something bad?

This is where your wrong, The Qunari werent leaving, they never intended to leave because Isabela stole their relic, that would be the "Filth" the Arishok speaks of, meanwhile they were causing problem' s in the city because they were converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun, which caused friction with Aveline and the guard and yes the were being anotgonized, but let' s not act like they were a peaceful bunch.

He wasn't arguing about the qunari leaving,  they weren't hostile in any event without provocation first, the qunari didn't start anything, the chantry reactionaries did. They were a peaceful neutral bunch when left alone.

....
Being Proactive does not require you to seek the Qunari out (of which
there is no option to do so), being Proactive only requires that you
have knowledge of a perceived problem and doing something about it on
your own merit. Now, Hawke leads his party throughout the course of
the game and makes a host of descesions in order to prevent the
perceived problem the qunari could cause to Kirkwall, If
you arguement is "Well the Vicount said, or Meredith told you", The Vicount Died, Meredith didnt tell you HOW to do anything, only that something needed to
be done. Isabela made a SUGGESTION that you should tend to her problems first.
Nobody is standing over Hawke going do this do that, if you dont
do it, Kirkwall burns or you have no desire to play the game itself. 

See?

Modifié par ggghhhxxxpuf, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:48 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I take it calling me a "liar", despite participating in the atheist threads where I made my opinion loud and clear, [/quote]

Making a lie loud and clear doesn't make it any less false. [/quote]

You mean how I pointed out that I already addressed the alternative dialogue options in the Merrill scene, where she comforts Hawke after Leandra's death? Or how I explained that I thought that the atheist option should return? I have proof backing up what I said, since I discussed the matter with Wulfram months ago in the same thread Sir JK participated in:

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

Yes, we could have done with a friendlier non-religious answer.[/quote]

Considering there are only three options, I think it would have made sense for them to be varied - rather than having two options essentially have Hawke verbally attack Merrill for trying to comfort him at this time.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

I really can't see any other interpretation.[/quote]

Yet we aren't choosing to determine what our protagonist believes in - it's not like New Vegas or Skyrim where we chose dialogue options that establish certain aspects of our protagonist, including his beliefs. There is no alternative to Hawke voicing an Andrastian religious view. And there is no indication that being irate with Merrill means that Hawke isn't Andrastian, it simply means he isn't voicing an Andrastian perspective - which he does in combat and in other conversations, including some of his dialogue with Sebastian and Grand Cleric Elthina.

Why the developers think that giving us a fixed protagonist with a fixed religious view is better than giving us choices in the matter is beyond me.[/quote]

In case you're wondering, Sir JK also participated in the "I think the option to be an atheist should return" thread, as you can see one of her posts here.

Also, other players noted the same other dialogue options in the scene as well in other threads, so I find it "odd" that you're acting as though you didn't see it despite participating in those threads.

Furthermore, you seem to continue ignoring the fact that people have requested the return of an option that was available in Origins: for the protagonist to express disbelief in the Maker. As Gaider conceded in Xil's thread a few months ago (you can read the entire entry at the link):

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it-- something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up. Probably because, at the time, such an option seemed appropriate, and I wouldn't have a problem with that even now. [/quote]

As you can see, people have asked for the option to return. Is Hawke permitted to provide an alternative point of view? No. What's the only point of view he can provide in that particular scene where Merrill comforts him? That his mother is with the Maker. That's the problem that I have with that particular scene, and I expressed it to Wulfram months ago when his retort was the other two dialogue lines in the scene.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

is supposed to cause me to stoop to your level of mud slinging? [/quote]

No. It's supposed to make you stop doing it. [/quote]

Let me get this straight. You make a point that's misunderstood, and you say you need to clarify the matter because you didn't phrase it correctly the first time around. When you misunderstand what other people say, you claim they are liars.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the point if all you're going to do is name-call me as though you're in grade school. [/quote]

Personally, I don't see the point in discussing something when you actively make up facts, or characterize then in such a way as to be intentionally misleading. 

Wait - scratch that. I take a moral stance on someone being misleading - it's wrong. And so I will point out where someone is intentionally misleading others. You'll find me doing it a lot less if you stop intentionally misleading. [/quote]

No one is being "intentionally misleading" by disagreeing with you. You keep pointing to the Merrill comfort scene but the problem remains that Hawke isn't given the opportunity to express an alternative point of view. The other two dialogue lines simply have Hawke berate Merrill; the player isn't given the option to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

My participation in the atheist threads was about my desire to see the return of the protagonist being allowed to express an atheist point of view; to say he didn't believe in the Maker. [/quote]

And there's nothing wrong with that position - I actually support that! But where I have an issue is when you go in the opposite direction, and argue that the game forced you to believe in the Maker. [/quote]

Because it did, by virtue of Hawke's dialogue, and his inability to have another alternative point of view. If the only point of view Hawke can have is that his mother is with the mother, then he's only permitted to be religiously Andrastian. If Hawke tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, he's telling someone who worships the Creators that he hopes a specific god watches over Feynriel. In addition to his other dialogue where the Maker is invoked, I feel that Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

This is permitted in Origins with the Cousland and Surana Warden. [/quote]

You're right - DA2 failed in providing these same options. [/quote]

Which is why some people previously expressed that we felt these type of options should return.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Pointing out that the Cousland Warden can't worship the Creators doesn't change my point about my preference [/quote]

But it does address your complaint that (a) you had Hawke pick a relgious dialogue option in a religous context and ( Hawke express an Andrastian view. This part is the same as DA:O. The Cousland protagnist can be an open atheist - but if you choose to be religious as a Cousland, it must be as an Andrastian. [/quote]

Which doesn't change the fact that I was asking for the option to express disbelief in the Maker, rather than being limited to only having the option to express one particular point of view: that the protagonist believes in the Maker. The options were available in Origins and Awakening, and that's why I expressed why I felt they should return.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And no, Hawke saying that he hopes the Maker guides him isn't the same as "Godsped". [/quote]

Putting your fingers in your ears and repeatedly saying "no" when faced with the historical definition of the term doesn't mean anything other than arguing that you're entitled to your own facts. [/quote]

You mean repeatedly disagreeing with you over your own view of the situation.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Other people have also expressed that they disliked how Hawke could only be religiously Andrastian, but I take it you disagree with them as well. [/quote]

See Shorts for this one. Props, buddy. [/quote]

Props to the guy who laughed when someone made fun of atheism in the atheist thread? I recall how he jumping at the chance to take a shot at me months ago in the atheist thread.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for your other comments, I recall making a post about how I, personally, found The Warden to be proactive, and that I felt Hawke was reactive [/quote]

Yes. And I pointed out how Hawke was, by your own standard, reactive. And you then (a) talked about totally unrelated matters; and ( dodged the points I raised. [/quote]

I'm assuming you meant to say "proactive" there.

I've already addressed I find Hawke to be reactive in the narrative, rather than proactive. While you might think that going along with Petrice's plan, or lying to the templars about the Starkhaven mages, means that Hawke is proactive, I respectfully disagree. What does Hawke do when he learns about Petrice's plans to incite a religious war in Act I? He does nothing. What does Hawke do about Cullen and another templar taking Bethany away to the Circle, where he knows mages are being abused and made tranquil illegally? He does nothing. What does Hawke do about the incriminating note he discovers in Quentin's lair, that reveals his mother's murderer had an accomplice who helped him in his research? He does nothing. What does Hawke do when Meredith is seizing power over Kirkwall illegally? He does nothing.

And you seriously ask why I think Hawke is a reactive character?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for the Eamon / Feynriel example, I personally find it different to outmaneuver a politician than I do to refuse to make Feynriel tranquil. [/quote]

Whether or not you find it different doesn't mean anything. What matters is whether it is proactive. [/quote]

Saying "no" makes Hawke proactive? I strongly disagree.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke comes across as inept and lazy to me. [/quote]

Hawke is good at one thing: killing. The same (and only) thing the Warden is good at. Maybe they're both good at talking and being persuasive - but that's about it. [/quote]

The Warden can outmaneuver dwarven politicians at their own game when the protagonist is in Orzammar. The Warden can be proactive about what the villagers of Redcliffe need to do in order to survive the next onslaught. The Warden can be proactive about the fate of the Dalish and the cursed werewolves. The Warden can be proactive about how to handle the politicial situation over the throne of Ferelden, even to the point where the Cousland Warden can become the King-Consort, or become Chancellor to a personality unhardened King Alistair (thereby serving as the real power behind the throne).

The Hero of Ferelden makes deals to secure armies to combat the Blight and the Archdemon. He can become the Arl of Amaranthine, and make decisions regarding how his arling is governed. He can decide the fate of the people who are brought before him in court, he can decide where to put his army, and he can be proactive about the nobles who threaten his power. The Warden has an irrevocable impact on several societies. That's why I said I found The Warden to be proactive.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I have much more respect for his companions, who are actually doing something with their lives, while Hawke seems to consistently do nothing but hack and slash. I find Hawke to be very boring, and preferred my Warden. [/quote]

You mean the Warden who does nothing other than be very good at murder, and whose key achieveing is hacking and slashng the archdemon to death? That Warden? [/quote]

Look above to my previous comments to see my response to this.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Remind me how you beat Loghain - ah, yes: (i) hacking and slashing your way to Eamon; (ii) hacking and slashing your way to Haven; (iii) hacking and slashing your way to the ashes; (iv ) hacking and slashing your way through Howe; (v) hacking and slashing your way through Ser Cautherin; and (vi) hacking and slashing your way through Loghain.

The funniest thing here? It's impossible to beat Loghain without dueling him, regardless of all the other stuff at the Landsmeet. [/quote]

I found The Warden to be proactive, for the reasons I addressed above, and I found Hawke to be reactive, because of the reasons I stated previously. When Corypheus possesses a Grey Warden, Hawke doesn't do anything. When Tallis manages to get the Qunari list, Hawke doesn't do anything. Time and again, Hawke mimicks furniture. I find his passivity to be annoying when I expected so much more from the person who was supposed to be able to shape and change Kirkwall with his actions.

[Kais Endac]

FreshIstay wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
This is where your wrong, The Qunari werent leaving, they never intended to leave because Isabela stole their relic, that would be the "Filth" the Arishok speaks of, meanwhile they were causing problem' s in the city because they were converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun, which caused friction with Aveline and the guard and yes the were being anotgonized, but let' s not act like they were a peaceful bunch. 

The Qunari were actually stuck their ship was wrecked there was no help coming from Par Vollen and they could not leave without the relic, however they had no intentions to convert the city (a fact that the Arishock confirms in game however he will not turn away converts).

The Qunari existed in Kirkwall for a good three years before the factions in the chantry pushed them too far. They actually ignored several insults even the killing of the delegates sent to the Viscount. But in the end they were pushed too far. I believe that towards the end the Arishock (who had till then tolerated the abuse) simply waited for justification to attack and take over the city.  

Let's face it though the Qunari are not content to leave the nations of Thedas alone. The Arishock's mission was not to convert that didn't mean he was opposed to it. They do leave peacefully if the relic is handed back to them (well after laying waste to the city)

Does any of what you just said, (although I agree with some points) mean that the Qunari werent converting criminals and protecting them under the Qun?  

Actually I was just stating their intentions as I saw them. I agree with your points I just wanted to elaborate on them.
From what I saw they were not actively converting them I think in most cases the criminal's were attracted to escaping justice.The quanari saw this as simply gaining more converts that does not invalidate your point though and the Arishock could have been using the converts to provoke the chantry and city into responding (like the whole gatlock incident he saught to use the situation to his favour regardless of his mission)

Edit: the important thing for me is  *actively* the qunari had no missionaries or public speakers converting the populace however they use the converts as a more subtle attack on the city. This was not their main goal though and had the Arishock recovered the relic he would have left without fuss (which was his intentions until Hawke lost the relic) at least it's *implied* he would - given the fact he had no ship and no allies I have no idea how he could have left-

Modifié par Kais Endac, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:58 .

[David Gaider]

SynGMW wrote...
I’ll finish the same way I started by simply saying thank you. Thank
you for all your efforts and your time. Thank you for your passion. Thank you
for making a world and people that are truly wonderful and impactful.

Thank you for the lovely words. Cheers!

[thats1evildude]

David Gaider posted in the BSN! Quickly, fellow otters, pursue!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[Anomaly-]

I agree with batlin on most things, but I felt more strongly about DA2's gameplay than it's story.

In Exile wrote...
6) Trap dmg - LOL at the idea that traps matter in DA:O or DA2.

I don't know about DA2, but they certainly mattered in DA:O.

This ignores that enemies in DA2 are far more devastating on nightmare - mages (blood or sarebas) can 1-hit KO you with their AOEs, Assasins can stealth and have to be forced out of it to avoid their massive damage. That adds variety beyond DA:O's mobs that politely stay there and wait for you to kill them.

That's being more than a little disingenous. Did you ever fight shades? They could also stealth up to you and mess you up pretty quick. Revenants could pull you to them, sylvans could root you in place, and most beast enemies could maul you to the ground, most often resulting in death. And unlike DA2, things like ogre rams and golem boulders could not simply be dodged, you had to prioritize preventing them from using such abilities, or plan to recover from them if unable to do so. You also encountered enemies with more unique skill sets and resistances. I would say that DA:O's encounters were easily more varied than DA2's.

However, while I did find DA:O more tactical, neither game is a shining beacon in that regard. It's the overall variety (or lack thereof) of DA2's gameplay that I felt was sorely lacking. Playing a Rogue, I could now just instantly teleport through the ground to any enemy's back. Or, if that was on cooldown, I could alternatively fly across the screen to them. This meant managing terrain, positioning and distance were no longer factors in combat. Factors I much enjoyed in DA:O. Combined with the "streamlined" attributes, redundant skill design, absence of crafting/non-combat skills and utter lack of itemization, DA2 took a serious step backward, IMO.

You also don't have cheese abilities like Mana Clash and the room clearing Storm of the Century (if you really want to be cheap) or just the regular cheap AOEs like Inferno and Tempest that you can cast through walls.

Rebalancing is an easy thing to do, that's not necessarily a comment on the design. In DA2, you had cross class combos that granted you a free 400% damage increase on skill combinations that were already effective without it. At least in DA:O, enemies had many of the same skills you did. Which, btw, is a much more elegant solution to difficulty than simply inflating numbers ad nauseum.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:10 .

[SilentK]

Ohh.. I can also play otter!! Pick me Pick me!

I'm really glad for you OP. So happy to read about another gamer-couple that enjoys DA. Both me and my husband love Dragon Age, it is almost silly how much we talk about Dragon Age or SWTOR at home. It is our shared hobby, I tell him about my current Hawke and how she is trying to juggle being against bloodmagic but also wanting to support mages and he get's to tell me about his characters problems with the qunari.

Have fun gaming and I wish you both all the best!

Modifié par SilentK, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:12 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

I don't see the argument here; whether a character is proactive is entirely up to how you roleplay them. You can roleplay a Hawke who wants desperately to fix up Kirkwall and pursues any opportunity that arises to do so. Or you can roleplay a Hawke who waits around for the plot to come to drag them out of bed. Ditto the Warden.

But the fact is that regardless of how you roleplay them, the nature of a video game character is to be dragged along by a plot. A character can't be 'proactive' until the plot gives your them something to be proactive about, making them inherently reactive. No video game character is not fundamentally an errand boy, unless you're like... playing Skyrim and completely ignoring the quests.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .