181 réponses à ce sujet

[Ronnie Blastoff]

SpockLives wrote...

4. Infiltrators can carry a super heavy gun and still have all their powers on a 3 second cooldown by ending cloak as soon as it is cast. No other class can even come close to carrying as much weaponry and not worrying about cooldowns.

This is the main issue with tac cloak imo. Its really dumb to have a 20 second long recharge and only have to wait 3. All the positives are already high enough, having no drawbacks at all besides the "lower enemy accuracy"  really isn't enough to balance to power.

For those against nerfers, it is a co-op game, but there is a reason the 2nd highest played class is INF, and its not cause of the damage bonus as much as them getting away with being able to have the damage bonus while carrying -150% weapons every 3 seconds. The reasons for balancing are to enable other classes/weapons/things to be vaiable. If INF has almost no drawbacks, wtf is the point in using anything else? Fun? lol only pros play for fun. At least and win at the same time. 90% of this games horrible pug can't manage to have fun and be effective, thus INF falls into the game.

There is also a reason 90% of the "shoe-shine" videos of people doing this and that are INF as well.

Have recharge of 15 seconds from having on that javelin or claymore actually been 15 instead of 3, strategy and skill would have to take over and that large pop of people swearing they are great players would drop to the ground.

[capn233]

Wow this thread was only posted 3 hours ago.

Deja vu!

[ISHYGDDT]

Another TC nerf thread? Is it balance change day already?

[nicethugbert]

spudspot wrote...

1. It's 25% multiplicative.

2. Over a maximum of 2.5s. AR gives up to 70% for up to 6.8s and reloads your gun, doubles your base shields. MM gives you an effective 50% multiplicative bonus on burst dps for many guns for up to 10.2s.

I do however agree that TC might have a little too many benefits for its 'drawbacks'.

Edit: Partially 'ed.

It also applies it's bunus to powers making power classes a lesser choice.  It also applies to melee.  There is also aggro dump.

[vinlandhammer]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

4. Infiltrators can carry a super heavy gun and still have all their powers on a 3 second cooldown by ending cloak as soon as it is cast. No other class can even come close to carrying as much weaponry and not worrying about cooldowns.

This is the main issue with tac cloak imo. Its really dumb to have a 20 second long recharge and only have to wait 3. All the positives are already high enough, having no drawbacks at all besides the "lower enemy accuracy"  really isn't enough to balance to power.

For those against nerfers, it is a co-op game, but there is a reason the 2nd highest played class is INF, and its not cause of the damage bonus as much as them getting away with being able to have the damage bonus while carrying -150% weapons every 3 seconds. The reasons for balancing are to enable other classes/weapons/things to be vaiable. If INF has almost no drawbacks, wtf is the point in using anything else? Fun? lol only pros play for fun. At least and win at the same time. 90% of this games horrible pug can't manage to have fun and be effective, thus INF falls into the game.

There is also a reason 90% of the "shoe-shine" videos of people doing this and that are INF as well.

Have recharge of 15 seconds from having on that javelin or claymore actually been 15 instead of 3, strategy and skill would have to take over and that large pop of people swearing they are great players would drop to the ground.

the reason of why class XYZ or weapon XYZ gets more popular is also of the constant non sense whinning nerfs, so when you destroy class after class and weapon after weapon, its logic that what remains will be overly used because is what is only left !! on this case isnt that class is OP, its because the others were nerfed to death 

[Blarg]

I don't care if it the damage is out of whack. I play duration anyways, and couldn't care less if my teammates are dishing out tonnes of damage. It's up to BioWare to say how much damage, though.

What I do care about is that it gets non infiltrators nerfed hard, while doing nothing to the intended target.

[spudspot]

nicethugbert wrote...

There is also aggro dump.

There is no aggro in this game and when you want to play an inf to its fullest potential, chances are you're already decloaked long before the enemy even started to re-evaluate which target to attack.

[geroni24]

targaryen8 wrote...

TC does nothing by itself, so, no, its not poweful at  all.

all the powers that were nerfed werent because of themselves, its their mixes with other powers, mostly with TC.
Stim packs werent nerfed because of their effects alone.
Sabotage wasnt nerfed because of its effect alone. So argument not valid.

[Alien Number Six]

This thread needs to die a cold hard death.

[SpockLives]

I updated the OP with what I would consider a reasonable change. There is talk of buffing, for all of you who hate nerfs. Check it out.

[heybigmoney]

Its hard to ignore that all of the best infiltrators are the best characters in the game.  Cloak is definitely the backbone of the issue, but its not TC alone that makes some of the infils broken.  Its mostly due to bioware's bad design choices for some of the characters.

Giving a class of characters the most powerful ability in the game isn't really that much of a problem.  Its the stacking of multiple top tier abilities in addition to TC.  Powers like incinerate, energy drain, sabotage, etc. would have been fine on infils given the multiple bonuses cloak gives to these abilities.  Proxy mine, hunter mode, arc nades, recon mine, etc. shouldn't belong on a class that already holds this much power.

Modifié par heybigmoney, 11 janvier 2013 - 11:53 .

[Ronnie Blastoff]

vinlandhammer wrote...

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

4. Infiltrators can carry a super heavy gun and still have all their powers on a 3 second cooldown by ending cloak as soon as it is cast. No other class can even come close to carrying as much weaponry and not worrying about cooldowns.

This is the main issue with tac cloak imo. Its really dumb to have a 20 second long recharge and only have to wait 3. All the positives are already high enough, having no drawbacks at all besides the "lower enemy accuracy"  really isn't enough to balance to power.

For those against nerfers, it is a co-op game, but there is a reason the 2nd highest played class is INF, and its not cause of the damage bonus as much as them getting away with being able to have the damage bonus while carrying -150% weapons every 3 seconds. The reasons for balancing are to enable other classes/weapons/things to be vaiable. If INF has almost no drawbacks, wtf is the point in using anything else? Fun? lol only pros play for fun. At least and win at the same time. 90% of this games horrible pug can't manage to have fun and be effective, thus INF falls into the game.

There is also a reason 90% of the "shoe-shine" videos of people doing this and that are INF as well.

Have recharge of 15 seconds from having on that javelin or claymore actually been 15 instead of 3, strategy and skill would have to take over and that large pop of people swearing they are great players would drop to the ground.

the reason of why class XYZ or weapon XYZ gets more popular is also of the constant non sense whinning nerfs, so when you destroy class after class and weapon after weapon, its logic that what remains will be overly used because is what is only left !! on this case isnt that class is OP, its because the others were nerfed to death 

While I completely agree with that, take into concideration this gentlemens post

heybigmoney wrote...

Its hard to ignore that all of the
best infiltrators are the best characters in the game.  Cloak is
definitely the backbone of the issue, but its not TC alone that makes
some of the infils broken.  Its mostly due to bioware's bad design
choices for some of the characters.

If there is anything that this game has is someone who seems to have no clue about the game or how people actually play it running or should I say ruining the "quality assurance" of character design. The nerfing of TCs "phantom recharge" won't so much break the class as it will "make sense" of not just the menu descriptions, but being able to wield the hammer of thor without worring about the hulk or it dropping on your foot or something. TC has

*3 second "universal" cooldown - granted a power/shoot/action is taken before the duration wears off.
*40~80% damage boost at just level 4 +25% boost @ R6 )and thats total damage,powers and everything, not just weapon like soldier AR)
*Damage mitigation from enemies, as long as you move from the original place you cloaked.

The cons being
*If you don't use an action during the duration, you get the listed recharge in the menu as a penalty.....
*Your sheilds don't recharge until cloak wears off.. ok, that actually is a good drawback, but is that really a problem if your not getting shot/doing crazy damage/ and won't have to worrie about it anyway because your shields INSTANTLY start recharging soon as its effect wears off, due to the penalty timer being active during the cloak.


Wtf....

Bioware completely overlooked the drawbacks of INF. (at least for MP purposes) Not only that but the drawbacks, are easily overcome, whilr the perks being so rediculously OP you can get a large % of them from a single point in TC at level 1. TC was already nerfed, but bioware missed the nail. Even being the main power of infiltrators as defense, can you say you get the same "intensity of power" from

Biotic Charge
Adrenaline Rush
Tech Armor
Marksman
Incenerate

Imo the volus "shield boost" is the only thing that comes close, and how "overpowered" are volus characters?

[Danisthewalrus]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

4. Infiltrators can carry a super heavy gun and still have all their powers on a 3 second cooldown by ending cloak as soon as it is cast. No other class can even come close to carrying as much weaponry and not worrying about cooldowns.

This is the main issue with tac cloak imo. Its really dumb to have a 20 second long recharge and only have to wait 3. All the positives are already high enough, having no drawbacks at all besides the "lower enemy accuracy"  really isn't enough to balance to power.

For those against nerfers, it is a co-op game, but there is a reason the 2nd highest played class is INF, and its not cause of the damage bonus as much as them getting away with being able to have the damage bonus while carrying -150% weapons every 3 seconds. The reasons for balancing are to enable other classes/weapons/things to be vaiable. If INF has almost no drawbacks, wtf is the point in using anything else? Fun? lol only pros play for fun. At least and win at the same time. 90% of this games horrible pug can't manage to have fun and be effective, thus INF falls into the game.

There is also a reason 90% of the "shoe-shine" videos of people doing this and that are INF as well.

Have recharge of 15 seconds from having on that javelin or claymore actually been 15 instead of 3, strategy and skill would have to take over and that large pop of people swearing they are great players would drop to the ground.

If the INF class is the 2nd highest played class, why aren't we trying to nerf the 1st highest? There will always be a class people prefer using because that's how they enjoy the game. Taking away the things that allow them to do that seriously don't benefit you at all. How would a TC nerf honestly improve YOUR enjoyment of the game? Are you counting your damage output %'s and comparing them to other players? Are you trying to compete with other players to see who can use their powers with the fastest cooldowns? Nerfing classes doesn't magically make other classes more viable, it just adds to the list of UNVIABLE classes to play.

And if you're going into a game with both the Javelin and Claymore equipped, I guaruntee you are not ruining anybody's fun, even as an Infiltrator you're doing it completely wrong and probably not getting many kills.

[Daihannya]

The two suggestions don't fix anything. TGI stimpacks behave like grenades so won't matter if you do number 2. GI gets all of its bonus from weapons damage, and proxy mine debuf so doing #1 only hurts the huntress and shadow, and melee GI. Gun totting GIs aren't really effected.

But why change the second most popular class? If it is only the second most popular?

[Cyonan]

Tactical Cloak is fine because plenty of other characters can match or even beat the average Infiltrator on damage output.

It's only 2(or 3 if you feel like adding the QMI) Infiltrators that are doing insane amounts of damage.

As I said in the other thread, Tactical Cloak alone is not overpowered but rather it has automatic synergy with anything. The BSN has a history of calling characters with 3 powers that synergize really well overpowered, and Infiltrators have an easier time achieving that.

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Danisthewalrus wrote...


If the INF class is the 2nd highest played class, why aren't we trying to nerf the 1st highest? There will always be a class people prefer using because that's how they enjoy the game. Taking away the things that allow them to do that seriously don't benefit you at all. How would a TC nerf honestly improve YOUR enjoyment of the game? Are you counting your damage output %'s and comparing them to other players? Are you trying to compete with other players to see who can use their powers with the fastest cooldowns? Nerfing classes doesn't magically make other classes more viable, it just adds to the list of UNVIABLE classes to play.

And if you're going into a game with both the Javelin and Claymore equipped, I guaruntee you are not ruining anybody's fun, even as an Infiltrator you're doing it completely wrong and probably not getting many kills.

The most played class is soldier, and its not because of any of the powers as much as people just can't see beyond aim and shoot. Soldier powers for the most part are pretty well balanced. Some could use a slight nudge in some directions, but aren't anywhere near as wtf as TC is for INF.

Btw no i'm not trying to compete with others, and nerfing TC wont benefit me "directly" in any shape or form. But perhaps I'd love to play this co-op game with people using powers with each other instead of 2/4 flat out just shooting a 200% damage gun. INF is the most "lone wolf" class in the game compared to how dependant and supportive characters in other factions are. You don't need a "team" to take down enemies with an INF, you just need a weapon.

I'm also not asking for a nerf, I'm asking for a limit. A reason to use biotic charge over tac cloak, a reason to pick vorcha soldier over human infiltrator. Anyone with sense would always choose a "fitting" INF class if it goes along with the gameplan.

Shyt if bioware wants to buff Biotic charge or AR even more, or give tech armor another 40% damage reduction let em do it. (most likely it wouldnt help since past events show Bioware aren't the best in balancing departments) That is just a dream though, I know if Biotic charges invincibility frames lasted longer, (or it activated when I hit the dam button, thats another story though<_<) I'd more than likely choose it over "hide from everything and hit like god finger"

[4ut0b4hn5child27]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par 4ut0b4hn5child27, 12 janvier 2013 - 01:30 .

[FPSBlake]

Everyone keeps talking about infiltrator melee bonuses but when's the last time anyone saw a melee infiltrator out perform something like a melee speced kro guard or a bat guard on gold?

[Cyonan]

FPSBlake wrote...

Everyone keeps talking about infiltrator melee bonuses but when's the last time anyone saw a melee infiltrator out perform something like a melee speced kro guard or a bat guard on gold?

A well played N7 Shadow could do it.

So could a well played melee GI or Asari Huntress. Even the QFI can do quite good in a melee build since Sabotage's Tech Vulnerability increases her melee damage too.

The main reason you see the Kroguard or Broguard doing it is because there's no risk of death to anything but sync kills.

[Hellfire257]

FPSBlake wrote...

Everyone keeps talking about infiltrator melee bonuses but when's the last time anyone saw a melee infiltrator out perform something like a melee speced kro guard or a bat guard on gold?

That's just it. If it was that overpowered why aren't infiltrators topping scoreboards a lot?

Anyway, OP, since you are challenging the current status, the onus is on you to prove it is overpowered, not those who don't want it nerfed. In summary of my opinion though, I think it (the infiltrator) is only as powerful as the person wielding it - and that is how it should be.

[Chealec]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

The most played class is soldier, and its not because of any of the powers as much as people just can't see beyond aim and shoot.

....

Almost anything else requires some degree of team synergy which you're unlikely to get in PuGs... take the DA for instance, an amazingly lethal character but one you really don't want to use if there's a Demolisher on the team (especially on Glacier or Condor where grenades are in short supply).

You don't necessarily want an Asari Adept (or Vanguard) on the same team as a Destroyer with Hawk Missiles, or Soldier with Conc Shot against Cerberus; dealing with Phantoms with the soldiers relies on putting them into power defence mode and shooting them whilst the Asari need the Phantoms to NOT be in power-defence mode so they can Stasis them.

So, if you're PuGin' it, you're probably better off going for something that doesn't require tactics.

If you're in a game with friends and you know how to work together you'll suddenly find Infiltrators are really nothing special.

[ISHYGDDT]

Hellfire257 wrote...

FPSBlake wrote...

Everyone keeps talking about infiltrator melee bonuses but when's the last time anyone saw a melee infiltrator out perform something like a melee speced kro guard or a bat guard on gold?

That's just it. If it was that overpowered why aren't infiltrators topping scoreboards a lot?

Because most infiltrators are bad players?

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Cyonan wrote...

Tactical Cloak is fine because plenty of other characters can match or even beat the average Infiltrator on damage output.

It's only 2(or 3 if you feel like adding the QMI) Infiltrators that are doing insane amounts of damage.

As I said in the other thread, Tactical Cloak alone is not overpowered but rather it has automatic synergy with anything. The BSN has a history of calling characters with 3 powers that synergize really well overpowered, and Infiltrators have an easier time achieving that.

I have to disagree with you there cyonan, all INF minus the asari (which is that way because its actually glitched) can do massive amounts of damage. The 2~3 (Geth/quarian/drell?) your talking about are rediculously massive damage. I can honestly say (at least do to the fact that weapon damage makes up a large part of player 2 enemy damage in this game) all the INF classes I play compared to others have a much easier, and enemy smashfest time. I don't have to wear down a banshee with biotic explosions, my human INF drops her in 5~6 headshots with my Black widow X, because TC (and weapon passives and gear) gives me such a large advantage over them.

Adrenaline rush comes close to TC in crazy ness, but AR is weapon damage only, i'm not giving my sticky grenades and proximity/recon mines 80% MORE damage while still being able to get weapon damage and mitigate damage AND have a 3 second timer. I'm not 100% sure but Adrenaline rush as is has a pretty quick cooldown, Its over 3 seconds no matter what I do if I use my Black widow on soldier, while, as long as I'm firing or using powers on an enemy, I can use w/e combo of heavy weapons I want on INF.