145 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

It's pretty much sexism really.

[Tokei-ihto]

Tokei-ihto wrote...

Jonata wrote..

The default Female Shepard selected by fans, though, it's not Gina Carano. She's more like Milla Jovovich, and I think we can pretty much agree that while one can enjoy the Resident Evil movies for what they are (senseless entertainment) they're not high quality things or believable in any terms.

Yeah, less Milla Jovovich, more Ellen Ripley for the female protagonist of next game please.

Edit:

Robosexual wrote...

Basically:

If you're hot and female you can't be a soldier, but if you're hot and male you can.

That is a straw man fallacy - one of the lowest and cheapest argumentation techniques you can make use of in a debate.

[Tokei-ihto]

Robosexual wrote...

It's pretty much sexism really.

No, it's not. If you actually bothered to read what he wrote - and he even clarified it to avoid misunderstandings  - you would see that his argument is pretty much the opposite of sexism.

If there are misogynistic tendencies at display it's because of the people who voted for Femshep to be turned into every straight man's wet dream and secret fantasy.

Modifié par Tokei-ihto, 15 janvier 2013 - 06:27 .

[HolyAvenger]

Its a silly and entirely subjective argument. Somehow a certain kind of attractiveness is believable in female action heroes, but not another. Apparently red hair and freckles is not acceptable, but black hair and blue eyes is.

Sense made? None at all.

[Tokei-ihto]

It's not about red hair or freckles per se, the "probelm" is that this is very much a representation of certain, in my opinion somewhat worrisome inclination of primarily male gamers who want Femshep to resemble a very specific wish-fulfillment fantasy.

[HolyAvenger]

Tokei-ihto wrote...

It's not about red hair or freckles per se, the "probelm" is that this is very much a representation of certain, in my opinion somewhat worrisome inclination of primarily male gamers who want Femshep to resemble a very specific wish-fulfillment fantasy.

 

Well, I run custom FemSheps, neither of whom resemble default FemShep...so if one doesn't like the wish-fulfillment trope that both default MShep and FShep embody, then go forth and change that. 

I certainly do not think FemShep is particularly designed fulfil any particular fantasy.

[Tokei-ihto]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Tokei-ihto wrote...

It's not about red hair or freckles per se, the "probelm" is that this is very much a representation of certain, in my opinion somewhat worrisome inclination of primarily male gamers who want Femshep to resemble a very specific wish-fulfillment fantasy.

 

Well, I run custom FemSheps, neither of whom resemble default FemShep...so if one doesn't like the wish-fulfillment trope that both default MShep and FShep embody, then go forth and change that. 

I certainly do not think FemShep is particularly designed fulfil any particular fantasy.

Well, since we're not talking about custom Sheps and the possibilities to shape him or her ad libitum in this thread ...

And the discussion starter was the fact that gamers were called upon to vote for Femshep's marketing appearance. And given the fact how few real fair skinned redheads there actually are in real live compared to brunette, blond or black haired women of different skin colour, it warrants at least a bit of speculation why the majority of voters choose that particular image of a woman.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Femshep's official look is fundamentally wrong, but I find it also very telling. Especially since a lot of male fans obiously had a say in this.

And yes, there definitively is a strange fascination with redheads in certain parts of the male community, I can tell you.

Modifié par Tokei-ihto, 15 janvier 2013 - 08:25 .

[HolyAvenger]

Well, given default FemShep has been auburn, if not outright red-haired, since ME1 (and Jonata has NFI what default FemShep looks like from ME1), I find a lot of the complaints rather ridiculous.

[Clayless]

Tokei-ihto wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's pretty much sexism really.

No, it's not. If you actually bothered to read what he wrote - and he even clarified it to avoid misunderstandings  - you would see that his argument is pretty much the opposite of sexism.

If there are misogynistic tendencies at display it's because of the people who voted for Femshep to be turned into every straight man's wet dream and secret fantasy.

What? That's not the opposite of sexism, that's just sexism.

People may have voted Shepard because of her looks, but that doesn't mean thinking she shouldn't be hot because girl soldiers being hot = bad is somehow not sexist.

Modifié par Robosexual, 15 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Mike Shepard]

BioWare likes gingers. Case & point: Leliana. Also, Mass Effect 1 & 2 didn't have an 'iconic' FemShep. The male shep, that was the "iconic" hero of the game. They decided for ME3 to include an 'iconic' FemShep. However they left it to their fans. They voted. They picked the redhead. People complained that it was sexism, but I saw the choices: there was an option with Red, black, and blonde hair. To me, making her a bottle blonde with blue eyes would have been worse. But ultimately, no matter if they made her hair red, black, orange, green or yellow, someone somewhere sometime would be unhappy.

[Tokei-ihto]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Well, given default FemShep has been auburn, if not outright red-haired, since ME1 (and Jonata has NFI what
default FemShep looks like from ME1), I find a lot of the complaints rather ridiculous.

Well, given the many complaints leveled at her appearance in ME1/2, one would expect that her initial looks wouldn't really affect that vote, don't you think? Otherwise people have just said, give her a makeover, polish her up, otherwise keep her like that.

Nah, people voted for what they wanted, not what they had come to expect from the two previous installments.

Robosexual wrote...

Tokei-ihto wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's pretty much sexism really.

No,
it's not. If you actually bothered to read what he wrote - and he even clarified it to avoid misunderstandings  - you would see that his argument is pretty much the opposite of sexism.

If there are misogynistic tendencies at display it's because of the people who voted for Femshep to be turned into every straight man's wet dream and secret fantasy.

What? That's not the opposite of sexism, that's just sexism.

People may have voted Shepard because of her looks, but that doesn't mean thinking she shouldn't be hot because girl soldiers being hot = bad is somehow not sexist.

Again, please bother to read what was said before. It's NOT about her being hot or just plain good looking. Nobody said that. It's about a very specific combination of certain features - red hair, fair skin, green eyes, freckles - that was chosen.


Let's just turn this round for a moment. If there were no male model Shepard's appearance was based on and people were asked to vote how he should be presented in marketing, I'd bet he would look almost exactly like the default Shepard we have since the first game. Yes, he was shaped to look like Mark Vanderloo, but he also very much represents what many white male, Caucasian players can identify with. His eyes might be bluer, his cheekbones more prominent, his jawline more chiseld than that of the average man, but in essence Sheploo's countenance is an amalgamation of the stereotypical facial features of men of the Caucasian race (which is still the largest group of players). He's like a superior looking version of ourselves to whom we still can relate to because there are enough aspects in his face that are familiar.

Now, before people start complaining that "he loooks nothing like me", "I find him butt ugly" etc. this of course is a
generalization. But the fact remains, Sheploo is a very good, albeit generic looking dude most players can relate to without being totally alienated.

Okay, now how many women look like default Femshep from ME3? Again, how many redheads are there who thought "That looks almost like me. I can see myself in that. I definitively go for it? Here's my vote." Especially since people and in particular women (at least judging from certain threads here on BSN) continuously play up the RPG aspect of Shepard. How it's always about "MY Shepard". How many women secretly wish they had "red hair, fair skin, green eyes, freckles" instead of their normal appearance? After all, redheads are gravely
outnumbers by women with other hair colours. In fact, They are facing extinction if one is to believe scientific studies.
Perhaps I'm totally mistaken and it's the great dream of every second woman to look like that, in which case I sincerly apologize, but somehow I doubt that.

Let's put it that way: How come that ME3 Femshep looks more like men want their woman to look like and less like women want themselves to look like?


Edit: @above: It's not that I'm unhappy or offended. But I like to point out certain tendencies that I find, at its core, a bit problematic. And I'm not judging someone who likes to play that particular Femshep, but I think people should be more aware of why that is the case.
Unless you indeed happen to look exactly like that, of course.

Modifié par Tokei-ihto, 15 janvier 2013 - 10:07 .

[Jonata]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Why?

Edit:  I apologize for being so short but I still do not understand your point.  Why is the default femshep not appropriate for femshep?  How is her face any less suitable than, using my previous example, Gina Carrano?  In the concept art, which is the image used on the box art, she has the same intense look that male Shepard has.  She looks serious, intense and ready to face whatever it is the Reapers throw at her.  She also happens to have

red hair and freckles and is attractive but that doesn't really affect her attitude.  And again, male Shepard fits the male standards of beauty and no questions him as a soldier, so why is femshep different?

Mh... let's put it this way: Sheploo is kinda like Daniel Craig James Bond, okay? He's hot, cool, but he has a face that you could see on a secret agent who have seen quite a lot of battles in his days.

FShep, on the other hand, is more like Pierce Brosnam. She's designed to look hot, she was chosen by mostly male fans who wanted a virtual doll to look at and fulfill their fantasies, and she doesn't look like she has seen even one single battle (also, she looks much younger than ME3 Sheploo). 

That's the point: it's not because she couldn't be a soldier, it's just that she is not what you could expect from a soldier woman. And when it comes to entertainment, looks and expectation are very important.

Robosexual wrote...

It's pretty much sexism really.

Robosexual wrote...

What? That's not the opposite of sexism, that's just sexism.

People may have voted Shepard because of her looks, but that doesn't mean thinking she shouldn't be hot because girl soldiers being hot =/= bad is somehow not sexist.  

I'm pretty much stating that I'd like more badassery and less objectification for Femshep. I cannot even see your point right. 

I am not saying "Shepard should not be hot", which is kind of a sexist phrase in itself, I'm just saying that she should be more of a fighter and less of a visual doll. 

[Clayless]

Jonata wrote...

I'm pretty much stating that I'd like more badassery and less objectification for Femshep. I cannot even see your point right. 

I am not saying "Shepard should not be hot", which is kind of a sexist phrase in itself, I'm just saying that she should be more of a fighter and less of a visual doll.

Why? She can't be hot because?

[sharkboy421]

Robosexual wrote...

Jonata wrote...

I'm pretty much stating that I'd like more badassery and less objectification for Femshep. I cannot even see your point right. 

I am not saying "Shepard should not be hot", which is kind of a sexist phrase in itself, I'm just saying that she should be more of a fighter and less of a visual doll.

Why? She can't be hot because?

Yeah I'm sorry Jonata but all I'm getting from you is that you don't like how the default femshep looks.  Which is fine; I think her concept art looks suitably badass, however it didn't translate into the game for whatever reason and I dislike how she ended up in game.  (Which makes no sense as I have found several completely unmodded face codes that fit the concept art very closely but that is another issue.) 

But saying she "should be more of a fight and less of a visual doll", what the hell does that even mean?  Why is she a "virtual doll"?  If its because the concept art was voted on by fans then I'm going to counter with default male Shepard again; he is a model, someone who is supposed to look pretty.  He happens to also fit the stereotypical Hollywood action hero, but he is really pretty.  So is Daniel Craig as you pointed out. 

And as per our earlier discussion, how would a femshep based on Gina Carrano be anymore valid than the current default?  Both, to me, look appropriate for the part.  So I apologize but I still do not understand what it is you are getting at.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Because I voted for the redhead since I didn't want a Samus clone. Others seemed to have agreed with me.

Well that's like saying "I don't like the default Shepard because he looks like Bill from Contra." Does anyone even remember Metroid any more?

Can't believe this thread is still going, WHO THE **** CARES? There is one group who voted for the blond so they can ****** to to her while she is with Traynor and there is the other group who wants a Femshep who looked like an actual Soldier. I would have voted for 1 or 6.

Solution: Use the face editor. Plain and simple.

[Jonata]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Jonata wrote...

I'm pretty much stating that I'd like more badassery and less objectification for Femshep. I cannot even see your point right. 

I am not saying "Shepard should not be hot", which is kind of a sexist phrase in itself, I'm just saying that she should be more of a fighter and less of a visual doll.

Why? She can't be hot because?

Yeah I'm sorry Jonata but all I'm getting from you is that you don't like how the default femshep looks.  Which is fine; I think her concept art looks suitably badass, however it didn't translate into the game for whatever reason and I dislike how she ended up in game.  (Which makes no sense as I have found several completely unmodded face codes that fit the concept art very closely but that is another issue.) 

But saying she "should be more of a fight and less of a visual doll", what the hell does that even mean?  Why is she a "virtual doll"?  If its because the concept art was voted on by fans then I'm going to counter with default male Shepard again; he is a model, someone who is supposed to look pretty.  He happens to also fit the stereotypical Hollywood action hero, but he is really pretty.  So is Daniel Craig as you pointed out. 

And as per our earlier discussion, how would a femshep based on Gina Carrano be anymore valid than the current default?  Both, to me, look appropriate for the part.  So I apologize but I still do not understand what it is you are getting at.

A) This is pretty much how canon FemShep looks now: 





 This is how a believable...



...yet still kinda "hot" as you say...



...FemShep could looks like. 



I can't think of a simpler way to explain my point. In my opinion, such fan-wanking is distracting, sexist, and it's not coherent with the rest of the game design. Full stop. 


EDIT: PS: to all of you wondering why this is even a problem anymore, it's because the "canon FemShep face" is what the game shows to the rest of the world, it's how the "female main character" of Mass Effect is marketed and sold. And if BioWare sells a game with a hot redhead cosplay-girl on their cover, they are weakening the perception of women in the entire videogame world, a world full of "Juliet Starlings" and "Bayonettas" that certainly do not need more objectified female characters. 

Modifié par Jonata, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:59 .

[HolyAvenger]

That's a false comparison because FemShep is almost always shown holding a gun and in her armour or uniform. Not in a chainmail bikini.

So all the difference is in facial features. You think a certain set of facial features is "too pretty" to be a believable female action hero...which I think is ridiculous.

I can't take you seriously because you don't even know what default FemShep looked like in the first game.

[White_Jedi]

The only things that the fans got to vote on as far as femshep's appearance goes was hair color, hair style and perhaps skin tone/color. Fans didn't select femshep's body type or her clothing/armor appearance. The photo you selected for your argument against the default femshep are not accurate of default femshep's appearance in game, i can't think of any vanilla game outfit she wears that shows that much skin, and the fan's as a whole (those who voted on her default appearance) did not seem to see the appeal of another dark appearing female lead character, by that i mean dark hair,eyes and clothing/armor, in the way the photo's you selected to show what you would have preferred do. In the end it's a matter of personal taste and nobody is forced to use the default appearance for their Shepard, male or female.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

HolyAvenger wrote...

That's a false comparison because FemShep is almost always shown holding a gun and in her armour or uniform. Not in a chainmail bikini.

So all the difference is in facial features. You think a certain set of facial features is "too pretty" to be a believable female action hero...which I think is ridiculous.

I can't take you seriously because you don't even know what default FemShep looked like in the first game.

Use your imagination, think of the first female in that picture wearing a battle suit.

What he/she/it is trying to say is that Femshep looks like a model. While a real (male or female) soldier needs to have short hair, be muscular enough to do tasks and have communication skills. Apparently Femshep lacks 2 of those.

If you have a look at Femshep's body, she looks like a model. I swear to god, when I was a chubby 12 year old I looked more stronger than her. If you go talk to a woman who serves in the military branch, she will probably have abs bulging out. Not a flat hollywood America's Next Top Model torso with the big breasts.

But Bioware couldn't stop there, EDI, Ashley, Liara; all "amped" up. Ashley turned into a celebrity, Liara looks more curvey (Win win!) and EDI's change is so blantantly obvious: A ******, a big behind, a pair of mountains upfront and a symmetrical face (The face can be excused, because she is a robot.)

God, this thread should have ended long ago. And supposedly Femshep's hair changed because blondes are too stupid to be in the military and they didn't have better things to criticize, such as hair shoiuld be neat and tied up in the military, not swinging around everywhere, might do good for Garrus but not so much for fighting A ****ING WAR. My IQ just dropped talking about this...

[HolyAvenger]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Use your imagination, think of the first female in that picture wearing a battle suit.

What he/she/it is trying to say is that Femshep looks like a model. While a real (male or female) soldier needs to have short hair, be muscular enough to do tasks and have communication skills. Apparently Femshep lacks 2 of those.

The thread was never about FemShep's body, for a start. It was about her facial features. Explicitly, its about the fact that red hair, freckles and green eyes meant that she was too feminine to be a believable soldier.

I will agree they could've muscled her up a bit more, but honestly given all the musculo-skeletar cybernetic enhancements she already has, its not really needed for "believability" reasons. In ME2 she goes firing shotguns that would break the arms of ordinary humans or use weapons that can otherwise be only used by robotic bodies. 


I will agree with you though that this thread is stupid

[Mouton_Alpha]

I hate the ridiculous eyeshadow too, btw. I just might have played the default ginger femshep if I could have edited it out.

[Urdnot_Bucdawg]

All this debate IMO proves to me is why people prefer Mary Anns to Gingers

[Rosstoration]

Welcome to western culture, where sex appeal is the overriding selling point of anything post-2001.
Old default female Shep was deemed not sexy enough, as was Ash and Liara, hence this was "fixed" in ME3.

Modifié par Rosstoration, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:46 .

[iAmWhitey]

perhaps this thread would not be the flame war it is, if OP had not included "ginger" in the question

[BonFire5]

There's also the problem that she isn't fit for a soldier (in my eyes). She has twiggy arms and legs, hips that can almost make Tali jealous, and she's covered in so much make up that it's not even funny.
Then, they did it to Ash too, what the f***?
I'd expect military females to have as much control as what plagues Male Shep. Such as, short hair, no skin cream, and a physique so ripped you could bounce a quarter off of it.
I'd probably stop complaining if Male Shep had the option of having longer hair, eye shadow, or even a beard/Freddie Mustache, you know? He's just as much a soldier as FemShep, and they should get the same damned options.