142 réponses à ce sujet

[Sensorie]

Fexelea wrote...

Sensory wrote...

What scenario seems more likely?
#1 BioWare creates a special PC download for owners of the console version.
#2 Owners of the console version purchase the PC version.

Realistically, with all factors considered, I just don't see #1 happening. It would cost them additional time and money, not to mention the technical hurdles they would inevitably face, and they would have little to gain from doing so. If owners of the console version were indeed that enthusiastic about content creation, purchasing the PC version would be the simplest solution. Yes, that would mean buying the game twice. I've personally spent £110 (~$175 US) towards Dragon Age merchandise (regular + collector's + three books), and I've chosen to make a few sacrifices in order to make those purchases.

Scenario # 3

Bioware allows via EA account sync the download and use of the toolset for console players. Minor twitches would be required, but it should not be a problem since the ps3 save and install files are fully accessible (now the MS ones would be other issue).

That's a variation of #1, because the majority of the PC files are required for the toolset to even run, hence #2 is still the only realistic scenario.

Fexelea wrote...

I'm more concerned about the pc designed mods to be playable on the ps3 anyway.

And that's actually a separate issue.

Modifié par Sensory, 09 janvier 2010 - 02:47 .

[bjdbwea]

How's that supposed to work anyway? You don't have an adequate input system, nor do the additional required programs run on a console. So you'd have to develop on a PC anyway. And then somehow copy the mod on your console to test it? Good luck identifying bugs that way. A real waste of time. Just get the PC version, download the toolset, and there you go. Maybe some day it'll be possible to use those PC-made mods on the consoles, though I doubt it because it's contrary to the console business model. So think about it - maybe you'd rather invest into your PC hardware than buy the next generation of consoles as soon as it's available?

[Nwalya42]

... Man, some people don't read. This topic was the idea of getting the console on your PC when you have purchased a console version of the game - not about getting the toolset working on the console. Also, the OP doesn't want to make full fledged mods, only (for example) cutscenes and levels (for example, a machinima, or levels for other people to use).

I am a PC gamer. And I believe that the ideas stated (for those who read) earlier have merit. That's why I suggested them.

Shallina wrote...

You should have bought the PC version if you got a PC able to run the toolset. There is no point in console if you got a good enouth PC. Everything you can do with a console you can do it better with a PC. That include plugin your game on TV and play on the couch as well. The only reason of console is marketing, don't fall for it and you'll be happy.

*sigh* This is why the community is going to the dogs - people don't believe that other people are worth the time because they bought a supposedly 'inferior' version of the game. I know my opinion was like that once, but I disagree now. All versions of the game should get the respect equal to the owners of the PC version. Not just flaming them and saying "You shoulda got the PC version."

And yes, I know I'm a hypocrite. But I think the ability to create SOME custom content should be given to the owners of the console versions (i.e. cutscene editor) so that they can be part of the community and share their imaginitive creations with the world.

Modifié par Nwalya42, 10 janvier 2010 - 12:10 .

[EJ42]

The problem, Nwalya42 is that the consoles are far more restrictive than PCs in terms of the content they can handle. Bioware is held to a certain standard of compatibility with the console systems, which has some impact on what they are able to do in the PC version.

Player-created content is a different story. I could probably create a module that would crash your PS3 entirely. It wouldn't be good for Bioware to allow you to install that.

[Nwalya42]

EJ42 wrote...

The problem, Nwalya42 is that the consoles are far more restrictive than PCs in terms of the content they can handle. Bioware is held to a certain standard of compatibility with the console systems, which has some impact on what they are able to do in the PC version.
Player-created content is a different story. I could probably create a module that would crash your PS3 entirely. It wouldn't be good for Bioware to allow you to install that.

Once again, nothing has been suggested about getting user made content on console, at least not in this topic. The main point is for making custom content for others to look at on the PC - e.g. Machinima. I know that console arn't up to much as far as content is concerned. I'm doing a Computer science degree and passing with flying colors. What is being suggested is for the OP and other console users to be able to make lvl files, face morphs etc for others to use, or to be used in their own cutscene and then uploaded as an avi file or something.
Also, I have a PS3, but I have the PC version of the game - check my profile. And yes, custom content will be heavier on the consoles due to the fact that people will make huge mobs that the console CPU won't be able to process the AI on all of them.

Modifié par Nwalya42, 10 janvier 2010 - 12:30 .

[EJ42]

Nwalya42 wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

The problem, Nwalya42 is that the consoles are far more restrictive than PCs in terms of the content they can handle. Bioware is held to a certain standard of compatibility with the console systems, which has some impact on what they are able to do in the PC version.
Player-created content is a different story. I could probably create a module that would crash your PS3 entirely. It wouldn't be good for Bioware to allow you to install that.

Once again, nothing has been suggested about getting user made content on console, at least not in this topic. The main point is for making custom content for others to look at on the PC - e.g. Machinima. I know that console arn't up to much as far as content is concerned. I'm doing a Computer science degree and passing with flying colors. What is being suggested is for the OP and other console users to be able to make lvl files, face morphs etc for others to use, or to be used in their own cutscene and then uploaded as an avi file or something.
Also, I have a PS3, but I have the PC version of the game - check my profile. And yes, custom content will be heavier on the consoles due to the fact that people will make huge mobs that the console CPU won't be able to process the AI on all of them.

In that case, the issue is that you have not purchased the PC content.  You do not have a license to install the game software on your PC just as I do not have a license to install the software on my PS3.

The PC toolset requires you to have the full PC game installed.  If they let you have it for free, then there would be no need to purchase the PC version of the game.  Everyone would just buy the PS3 or Xbox version, then get the PC version for free.

It's not a matter of simply having a license to download the toolset itself.  It's that the installation process pulls from files in your Dragon Age installation folder, which you will not have.

[legrunge]

acctualy i have been thinking on this same thing for a while. it would be entrierly possible to do. spacificly when i got Oblivion for the pc then later the 360. i always thought why couldnt we build mods useing the tool editor and then export them to the 360. this lead me to alittle bit of research after finding the xna game studio package using the wonderfull programming language of C#, using xna you could build a game or even an app that worked on the xbox 360. after learning more about the xna stuff i learned that you need a devleopoers license for 100$ a year. but it will open up a connection from your pc to the 360. this allows you to export your game from the pc to the 360.



so this is possible entirely. and i would do this except im not a coder, and i havent touched xna after finding unity3d. though after playing dao on pc and wanting to pick it up for the 360 i may conciter picking this up again. though i would have to spend lots of time on learning xna to do it. which isnt entrirly unplesnt.

[jellmoo32]

The big issue when it boils down to is 'cost vs benefit'. Essentially, does the cost that Bioware has to pay (money, resources, man hours, etc...) correlate to a tangible benefit?



Off hand, I would think it does not, but am more than willing to admit that I may be wrong in that regard. There would be an associated cost in re-packaging the toolset for a console owner download (design and QA also need to be factored in), an associated cost in implementing a validation system (though I would imagine this to be minimal, given that the bulk of it is in place), and an associated cost in changing marketing and promotional material to inform the customer base that the toolset is available for download for console owners.



Then there is the download itself. My Dragon Age folder sits at roughly the 15GB mark. Let's assume (for fun) that you can remove half of that as uneeded for the tool set, leaving us with 7.5 GB. Now let's assume we can compress that down to a 3.5GB download. Bioware then needs to host this rather large download, and pay for the bandwith.



Given that, it seems highly unlikely that this could be down for free, so a fee of some sort would be required. At this point they have to try and estimate just how many owners of the console version of the game would want to download this tool set, fully aware that they could not actually use the content that they create on their console versions of the game.



Ultimately, in my opinion, I think that the number of people interested would be a tiny fraction of console players. So, what cost can they attach to this that would be worth their investment, appeal to the console players desiring this, and still remain in line with profit margins and public opinion?

[Nwalya42]

EJ42 wrote...

Nwalya42 wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

The problem, Nwalya42 is that the consoles are far more restrictive than PCs in terms of the content they can handle. Bioware is held to a certain standard of compatibility with the console systems, which has some impact on what they are able to do in the PC version.
Player-created content is a different story. I could probably create a module that would crash your PS3 entirely. It wouldn't be good for Bioware to allow you to install that.

Once again, nothing has been suggested about getting user made content on console, at least not in this topic. The main point is for making custom content for others to look at on the PC - e.g. Machinima. I know that console arn't up to much as far as content is concerned. I'm doing a Computer science degree and passing with flying colors. What is being suggested is for the OP and other console users to be able to make lvl files, face morphs etc for others to use, or to be used in their own cutscene and then uploaded as an avi file or something.
Also, I have a PS3, but I have the PC version of the game - check my profile. And yes, custom content will be heavier on the consoles due to the fact that people will make huge mobs that the console CPU won't be able to process the AI on all of them.

In that case, the issue is that you have not purchased the PC content.  You do not have a license to install the game software on your PC just as I do not have a license to install the software on my PS3.

The PC toolset requires you to have the full PC game installed.  If they let you have it for free, then there would be no need to purchase the PC version of the game.  Everyone would just buy the PS3 or Xbox version, then get the PC version for free.

It's not a matter of simply having a license to download the toolset itself.  It's that the installation process pulls from files in your Dragon Age installation folder, which you will not have.

I know all this - I have mentioned it before. However, we are suggesting a modified version of the toolset - say, for example, just a level editor. All it would require is the model files from the PC version - not the executables, not the plots, nothing like that - all that is neccesary is the models which you place in the level editor.

[Nwalya42]

jellmoo32 wrote...

The big issue when it boils down to is 'cost vs benefit'. Essentially, does the cost that Bioware has to pay (money, resources, man hours, etc...) correlate to a tangible benefit?

Off hand, I would think it does not, but am more than willing to admit that I may be wrong in that regard. There would be an associated cost in re-packaging the toolset for a console owner download (design and QA also need to be factored in), an associated cost in implementing a validation system (though I would imagine this to be minimal, given that the bulk of it is in place), and an associated cost in changing marketing and promotional material to inform the customer base that the toolset is available for download for console owners.

Then there is the download itself. My Dragon Age folder sits at roughly the 15GB mark. Let's assume (for fun) that you can remove half of that as uneeded for the tool set, leaving us with 7.5 GB. Now let's assume we can compress that down to a 3.5GB download. Bioware then needs to host this rather large download, and pay for the bandwith.

Given that, it seems highly unlikely that this could be down for free, so a fee of some sort would be required. At this point they have to try and estimate just how many owners of the console version of the game would want to download this tool set, fully aware that they could not actually use the content that they create on their console versions of the game.

Ultimately, in my opinion, I think that the number of people interested would be a tiny fraction of console players. So, what cost can they attach to this that would be worth their investment, appeal to the console players desiring this, and still remain in line with profit margins and public opinion?

I agree. This is for the most part a theoretical discussion - i.e. can it be done?
I think it won't be done, at least not by Bioware, but a user may be able to get permission to redistribute parts of the toolset and game to be able to create a standalone level editor (for example).

[jellmoo32]

Nwalya42 wrote...

I agree. This is for the most part a theoretical discussion - i.e. can it be done?
I think it won't be done, at least not by Bioware, but a user may be able to get permission to redistribute parts of the toolset and game to be able to create a standalone level editor (for example).

*Can* it be done? Of course, there is no doubt in that. It's techincally possible to distribute such a toolset, of that I have zero doubt,

Will it be done? I really do not think so. I can't see the benefit of doing so overshadowing the associated cost.

Would a user be given permission to create a toolset for distribution? Absolutely not. Bioware could never allow that sort of code modification to be allowed. It would be far too risky a proposition. I could see somebody doing such a thing without Bioware's permission, but that is a completely seperate issue which I would not condone.

[EJ42]

I think the primary benefit of the toolset is as an incentive to purchase the PC version.

Allowing access to the toolset for console players would detract from the value of the PC version.

If you have a PC capable of running the toolset and the game, then you should buy the PC version.

If you do that, then you'll have exactly what you want. It's not as if $40 is that much money.

[Nwalya42]

Wow. That is so narrow minded.

I have the PC version.

I just think that we shouldn't shrug off everyone who has the console version.

[ladydesire]

Nwalya42 wrote...

Wow. That is so narrow minded.
I have the PC version.
I just think that we shouldn't shrug off everyone who has the console version.

It's not, since all versions of the game (PC, XBox 360 and PS3) are created on a PC to begin with; the toolset we PC users have is nearly the same as the version that the developers used to create the installable data files for all three supported platforms, but we can't output the files to either PS3 or XBox 360 compatible formats.

[EJ42]

Nwalya42 wrote...

Wow. That is so narrow minded.
I have the PC version.
I just think that we shouldn't shrug off everyone who has the console version.

Should Bioware give you a free copy of the Xbox version of the game too?

That's basically what you're asking them to do.

[Nwalya42]

Sigh. No. I am suggesting that we listen to what the console users are saying and consider the possibility of a cut down toolset so that the console users can create some custom content and not be kept completely out of the loop.

I know that the toolset is for the PC. I just think that there is no reason to alienate the console users further by saying that they should go f themselves and not ever be able to make custom content.

[Fexelea]

Nwalya42 wrote...

Sigh. No. I am suggesting that we listen to what the console users are saying and consider the possibility of a cut down toolset so that the console users can create some custom content and not be kept completely out of the loop.
I know that the toolset is for the PC. I just think that there is no reason to alienate the console users further by saying that they should go f themselves and not ever be able to make custom content.

Thanks for your contributions, they have been really interesting! And don't bother with those who have to defend their tiny pride by trying to remain "superior" via an association with a perceived advantage. Gamers are gamers in any medium, and the whole PC vs Console argument is absurd.

I personally think that there are plenty of viable business models to expand modding and toolsets to console users. Console players have computers as well. Many of them have really powerful ones. Many of them will not care to pay for the toolset or for having the mods reprogrammed to work on the console. Such is the market when you identify a need, and mini transactions make incredible amounts of money in the oddest places. People pay for avatars in consoles, do we really think they will have a problem paying to access community levels? LBP is a prime exampel: 2 usd for a costume! And this sells. If they were user generated costumes and Sony only charged for the bandwith and had them at 0.5 usd, they would still make a margin!
So if it is technically possible and all that is needed is business sense workarounds, I think we should all be looking forward expanding the fan base.

[fluffyamoeba]

I'm a bit confused. If you have the console version and the toolset on PC then you can neither test nor play using the stuff you have created. If the toolset included a client, then you have the game. So either you are asking for a useless toolset or a free copy of the game. Is either of those particularly likely to happen? There is *no difference* between the format needed to test custom content in game and the form it gets redistributed in. Hence why Little Red Riding Hood Redux works fine on the released version of DA even though it was made with the beta toolset.



Also, any user made content would have to go through the cost of Bioware/EA testing it then it being approved by the usual process that DLC has to go through to be available on the console. Then it becomes their responsibility so they have to also check that the work was not plagarised from somewhere. I think the best we can hope for is something like the NWN premium modules.

[jellmoo32]

Fexelea wrote...

I personally think that there are plenty of viable business models to expand modding and toolsets to console users. Console players have computers as well. Many of them have really powerful ones. Many of them will not care to pay for the toolset or for having the mods reprogrammed to work on the console. Such is the market when you identify a need, and mini transactions make incredible amounts of money in the oddest places. People pay for avatars in consoles, do we really think they will have a problem paying to access community levels? LBP is a prime exampel: 2 usd for a costume! And this sells. If they were user generated costumes and Sony only charged for the bandwith and had them at 0.5 usd, they would still make a margin!
So if it is technically possible and all that is needed is business sense workarounds, I think we should all be looking forward expanding the fan base.

I honestly think that you are being overly optimistic in finding a business model that would be viable and offer an incentive to Bioware to put resources into. Paying for something like an avatar (which is much, much cheaper to produce and host than then entire Dragon Age toolset) is a completely seperate can of worms.

Ulimately, how big a demand is there? How many people that own a console version of the game wish to purchase a toolset in order to create game content that they would not be able to test, let alone use?

[darkshadow136]

tymay33 wrote...

Nwalya42 wrote...

Still no. You need the full PC game to have all of the required files to do ANY sort of modding with the toolset - including creating levels. For example, you need the house models to make a village, you need the tree data to make a forest. In order to use the toolset you NEED the full PC game installed.

Yes i get what your saying and i forgot to add that in my post when i said "Not the full-fledged toolset" i meant to include that we'd need the fullgame for this but let us download it, just make inaccesable unless through the toolset

Not possible anyway you want to look at it. consoles run on propriortary programing and are limited on both memory and multi funtion capability. Bioware will most likely never make a cutdown version of the toolset.  although consoles are very advanced now for the purpose that they serve which is gaming and graphics they lack multi function capability, and power of a PC. It's like comparing a two way radio with a cell phone they don't mix. Not too mention in order for the toolset to work it needs to be able  to run Microsoft MQS server programing which neither the x-box 360 or ps3 can do that I know of. Creating cinematics only is all well and good but that is still a mod therefore no different then creating an item or dungeon.

If you want to Modify anything within the game you need to be able to istall the full game on the system with all the core game files. Consoles dont alow this since you just insert disk to play the game. Even though you have to have the disk in for PC to play all the files are installed on the computer. If you want to mod anything at all get or build a nice PC.

Modifié par darkshadow136, 10 janvier 2010 - 04:53 .

[King Killoth]

I would love the full toolset to be avalible to the console users seeing as I am one. My pc is not the best one in the world and I mostly play on my xbox i would love to be able to make new content for myself as well as take screen shots and up load them here to show off my Warden.

[ladydesire]

bjdbwea wrote...

Maybe some day it'll be possible to use those PC-made mods on the consoles, though I doubt it because it's contrary to the console business model.

Microsoft doesn't allow any unapproved content on the XBox 360, but Sony does, as long as the developer asks to be allowed; I know this because there are tools to make Unreal Tournament 3 mods work on a PS3, and the toolset to make those mods are PC only. Ultimately, PS3 owners might get access to player created DA content, but it still leaves out the XBox 360 users.

[jellmoo32]

ladydesire wrote...

Microsoft doesn't allow any unapproved content on the XBox 360, but Sony does, as long as the developer asks to be allowed; I know this because there are tools to make Unreal Tournament 3 mods work on a PS3, and the toolset to make those mods are PC only. Ultimately, PS3 owners might get access to player created DA content, but it still leaves out the XBox 360 users.

Every console maker (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo...) requires any product that publisher wishes to releases on their console undergo what is called Compliance testing. Compliance testing involves ensuring that the product follows a series of set guidelines (Microsoft has the strictest, for example) that govern things from as obvious as "restricted content", to something as mundane as the naming convention for peripherals.

A single Compliance failure is enough to stop the publisher from releasing the title, and there is a not insignificant cost to submitting a game for Compliance testing. (Of course, EA actually has the clout to hammer through a failure, regardless...)

The toolset, as it exists on the PC version of the game could never be allowed on the consoles. It would require massive modification to allow for it to comply with console standards.

Allowing owners of a console version of Dragon Age to dowload a version of the toolset to create content strictly for the PC version is a massive longshot. A toolset that creates content for the console versions is as close to an impossibility as I can imagine.

[ladydesire]

jellmoo32 wrote...

A toolset that creates content for the console versions is as close to an impossibility as I can imagine.

Unlikely if you're talking about a console native version, or a version for owners of the console version of the game; it's far more likely for PS3 owners to get mods if Bioware chooses to follow the example of Epic Games and discuss the possiblity of allowing the existing PC only toolset to create PS3 mods as Epic has done with Unreal Editor 3 for Unreal Tournament 3.