142 réponses à ce sujet

[jellmoo32]

ladydesire wrote...

jellmoo32 wrote...

A toolset that creates content for the console versions is as close to an impossibility as I can imagine.

Unlikely if you're talking about a console native version, or a version for owners of the console version of the game; it's far more likely for PS3 owners to get mods if Bioware chooses to follow the example of Epic Games and discuss the possiblity of allowing the existing PC only toolset to create PS3 mods as Epic has done with Unreal Editor 3 for Unreal Tournament 3.

Still incredibly unlikely, as any user created content would still have to make it past Sony standards. The toolset, as is, simply allows for far to many creations that would never meet with Sony approval.

Bioware would have to create a brand new toolset with far more limited functionality than the PC one has at the moment. Given the cost of such an undertaking (design, programming, qa, hosting, bandwidth, etc...) when compared to the size of the target audience, it seems like a very unlikely outcome.

[ladydesire]

jellmoo32 wrote...

Still incredibly unlikely, as any user created content would still have to make it past Sony standards. The toolset, as is, simply allows for far to many creations that would never meet with Sony approval.

So does Unreal Editor 3, to be honest, and Epic has been allowed to do it, and apparently without every player-created mod being approved by Sony first.

Bioware would have to create a brand new toolset with far more limited functionality than the PC one has at the moment. Given the cost of such an undertaking (design, programming, qa, hosting, bandwidth, etc...) when compared to the size of the target audience, it seems like a very unlikely outcome.

Since much of the functionality of the current toolset is tied to third party tools that might not work on consoles anyway, I don't forsee Bioware even trying this approach.

[Fexelea]

There is a lot of supposition of marketsize and likelyhood of development based on profitability, but I doubt any of us has the resources to make such assessments.
There are always risks with market expansion, but such are necessary if corporations wish to remain relevant. Rather than creating a new service, adapting existing ones to new audiences is often the best solution, as it is less costly in all: R&D, implementation, marketing and support.

As I mentioned on another thread, even if the development of a new toolset that is console compatible would have to be sold to the console users, it would still prove worthy to Bioware and EA in the long run. User adoption might be slow at first but, like PC gaming did once, it will slowly grow and become a sub culture of the gaming core.
In addition, an approval system of PC mods that are then delivered on consoles for min. bandwith cost+premium would still be profitable. A costume for a sackboy costs 2 usd. That is including development, approval and bandwith, with a profit. Scratch development out because you allow users to do it, and it sounds very viable.

Modifié par Fexelea, 11 janvier 2010 - 12:14 .

[Sensorie]

Fexelea wrote...

There is a lot of supposition of marketsize and likelyhood of development based on profitability, but I doubt any of us has the resources to make such assessments.
There are always risks with market expansion, but such are necessary if corporations wish to remain relevant. Rather than creating a new service, adapting existing ones to new audiences is often the best solution, as it is less costly in all: R&D, implementation, marketing and support.

BioWare need not release a modified toolset for console owners in order to remain relevant in the industry; you're deviating towards the topic of mods for consoles again. As for the supposition, consider that this is the only thread making such a unique request. Anyone who genuinely believes in the possibility of BioWare releasing a modified toolset for owners of the console version is being inordinately idealistic; the solution of simply purchasing the PC version is far more pragmatic, even more so for consumers if you take into account the PC version being cheaper than its console counterpart. It's not as if console gamers are forever forbidden from using the toolset.

Fexelea wrote...

As I mentioned on another thread, even if the development of a new toolset that is console compatible would have to be sold to the console users, it would still prove worthy to Bioware and EA in the long run. User adoption might be slow at first but, like PC gaming did once, it
will slowly grow and become a sub culture of the gaming core.

By "console compatible" you mean a toolset for the PC that is specifically geared towards creating mods for the console versions. Your optimism is endearing, but the very nature of consoles and the method of their content distribution would have to change before modding can even begin to become a subculture of console gaming.

Fexelea wrote...

In addition, an approval system of PC mods that are then delivered on
consoles for min. bandwith cost+premium would still be profitable. A
costume for a sackboy costs 2 usd. That is including development,
approval and bandwith, with a profit. Scratch development out because
you allow users to do it, and it sounds very viable.

Now this could be viable, assuming they could iron out the legal and technical issues associated with such action in order to ensure efficient throughput, but even then I would only expect a limited quantity of releases.

[tymay33]

Tassiaw wrote...

tymay33 wrote...

Maybe im not understanding, what is special about it? all it is is the toolset minus a few uneeded tools

and i dont necesarily want the FULL game just the files like objects/textures/characters no story is needed for the toolset (correct me if im wrong)

I don't think you understand. Without the full game, the toolset is completely useless. The toolset doesn't access the main story or anything, it accesses the core game files which don't come with the toolset. They come with the PC version of the game. If you want to play around with the toolset, buy the PC version. You can't just magic core game files from thin air.

yes i do understand and if you've been reading this at all, the suggestion of a slimmed down version of the game for download was discussed to be compatable with the toolset, i am aware that the toolset does not include the full game. And P.S. your own statment contradicts itself

[wikkedjoker]

I don't think this will happen, but I do think we should be able to get user content on the Xbox from the PC.

[wikkedjoker]

I don't think this will happen, but I do think we should be able to get user content on the Xbox from the PC.

[ladydesire]

Sensory wrote...

By "console compatible" you mean a toolset for the PC that is specifically geared towards creating mods for the console versions. Your optimism is endearing, but the very nature of consoles and the method of their content distribution would have to change before modding can even begin to become a subculture of console gaming.

Wrong; the console manufacturers would have to approve the toolset components that would be used on PC to create console versions of PC mods, which as I've already pointed out in this thread, has a precident in Sony doing exactly this for Unreal Tournament 3 mods. There is no need for a toolset for the PC to be specifically geared to making console mods, since the existing PC toolset (with very minor changes) is the same one that was used to create the existing game content for all supported platforms.

[Sensorie]

ladydesire wrote...

Sensory wrote...

By "console compatible" you mean a toolset for the PC that is specifically geared towards creating mods for the console versions. Your optimism is endearing, but the very nature of consoles and the method of their content distribution would have to change before modding can even begin to become a subculture of console gaming.

Wrong; the console manufacturers would have to approve the toolset components that would be used on PC to create console versions of PC mods, which as I've already pointed out in this thread, has a precident in Sony doing exactly this for Unreal Tournament 3 mods. There is no need for a toolset for the PC to be specifically geared to making console mods, since the existing PC toolset (with very minor changes) is the same one that was used to create the existing game content for all supported platforms.

Of course the current toolset BioWare use is the one used to create content for all platforms, and considering your emphasis I will stress that I am well aware of that fact, but how is that relevant to modders (not BioWare) wishing to create content for consoles? There would certainly be a need for a modified toolset, and BioWare, in cooperation with Sony/Microsoft, would have to release these "approved" components of the toolset, which would be specifically geared towards creating console mods. Do not contradict yourself and then claim ignorance on my part.

Now, Sony may be more generous, but Microsoft's current business practices will not allow console modding to foster.

[fluffyamoeba]

tymay33 wrote...

yes i do understand and if you've been reading this at all, the suggestion of a slimmed down version of the game for download was discussed to be compatable with the toolset, i am aware that the toolset does not include the full game. And P.S. your own statment contradicts itself

You need the client and the resources. So then you have the game. Without the client, the toolset is pointless as you can't test anything.

I do like how people seem to think that the artists, audio people, programmers and testers should have their work given away for free. Are game designers the only ones who make content you think you should pay for?

[Sensorie]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

tymay33 wrote...

yes i do understand and if you've been reading this at all, the suggestion of a slimmed down version of the game for download was discussed to be compatable with the toolset, i am aware that the toolset does not include the full game. And P.S. your own statment contradicts itself

I do like how people seem to think that the artists, audio people, programmers and testers should have their work given away for free. Are game designers the only ones who make content you think you should pay for?

Not necessarily for free, but for the sake of argument, what if this "slimmed down version of the game" cost roughly 75% of the PC version?

[Fexelea]

I might have not been clear enough previously:

I understand that the pc toolset needs the game savefiles. I believe there could be a market for selling an "adapted toolset + basic game" for console modding. I would pay for it. But I want the content to work on the ps3, even if it has to go through an approval process and others have to pay to dowload it after completion. (of course it should be usable "as is" in your own linked ps3, otherwise testing is up to Bioware)

The technical and legal issues that mine this field can be dealt with, and you only need to do it one time to then have a model that works with all your games. A worthy pursuit.

[Sensorie]

Fexelea wrote...

I believe there could be a market for selling an "adapted toolset + basic game" for console modding. I would pay for it. But I want the content to work on the ps3, even if it has to go through an approval process and others have to pay to dowload it after completion. (of course it should be usable "as is" in your own linked ps3, otherwise testing is up to Bioware)

The technical and legal issues that mine this field can be dealt with, and you only need to do it one time to then have a model that works with all your games. A worthy pursuit.

You want BioWare to release tools that allow the creation of mods for the PS3. Realistically if it ever were to happen, you would still have to purchase the PC version and use the regular toolset, along with the additionally released tools required for PS3 mods.

Of course, Xbox 360 owners would be left out in the cold.

Modifié par Sensory, 11 janvier 2010 - 11:06 .

[ladydesire]

Sensory wrote...


Of course the current toolset BioWare use is the one used to create content for all platforms, and considering your emphasis I will stress that I am well aware of that fact, but how is that relevant to modders (not BioWare) wishing to create content for consoles? There would certainly be a need for a modified toolset, and BioWare, in cooperation with Sony/Microsoft, would have to release these "approved" components of the toolset, which would be specifically geared towards creating console mods. Do not contradict yourself and then claim ignorance on my part.

And the current toolset that Bioware uses is almost exactly the same toolset that the average (or maybe not so average) modder for this game can download; I've noticed that at least one of the included command line tools is able to generate (or should be, at any rate) content for all supported platforms, so it's likely that most of them can do it.

Now, Sony may be more generous, but Microsoft's current business practices will not allow console modding to foster.

Then that's something that gamers will have to unite on to get changed; it's also one reason why I refuse to buy any games that aren't also available on PC.

[Fexelea]

Sensory wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

I believe there could be a market for selling an "adapted toolset + basic game" for console modding. I would pay for it. But I want the content to work on the ps3, even if it has to go through an approval process and others have to pay to dowload it after completion. (of course it should be usable "as is" in your own linked ps3, otherwise testing is up to Bioware)

The technical and legal issues that mine this field can be dealt with, and you only need to do it one time to then have a model that works with all your games. A worthy pursuit.

You want BioWare to release tools that allow the creation of mods for the PS3. Realistically if it ever were to happen, you would still have to purchase the PC version and use the regular toolset, along with the additionally released tools required for PS3 mods.

Of course, Xbox 360 owners would be left out in the cold.

That's the equivalent of saying that if I want to make my own videos, I will not only need youtoube but a camera and some software editor as well: I'm fine with it! And I think there is a market for it.
The argument is not dissimilar to that of the designers of old, who insisted that designer oriented programs should stay on mac because "nobody will understand or use them and the developer will lose the focus" if it went to another OS. I think photoshop quintuplicated in adoption thanks to going "global", and the program just kept getting better and better as more people became designer wannabes. Yes there is a price to pay, but a larger audience means better prices for consumers and more profits for corporations: everyone wins.
And for the 360 being too sheltered: Wait until Sony is doing it, then competition kicks in.

[Sensorie]

ladydesire wrote...

And the current toolset that Bioware uses is almost exactly the same toolset that the average (or maybe not so average) modder for this game can download; I've noticed that at least one of the included command line tools is able to generate (or should be, at any rate) content for all supported platforms, so it's likely that most of them can do it.

That may be the case, but unless BioWare can successfully negotiate with Sony and reach an agreement to publicly release tools specific to direct PS3 mod support, there is nothing modders can currently do.

Fexelea wrote...

That's the equivalent of saying that if I want to make my own videos, I will not only need youtoube but a camera and some software editor as well: I'm fine with it! And I think there is a market for it.

Demand and complexity would have to be assessed individually per game, but assuming everything did work out successfully, modders would then be able to release their work on more platforms.

Fexelea wrote...

And for the 360 being too sheltered: Wait until Sony is doing it, then competition kicks in.

That has yet to happen for Unreal Tournament 3.

[Fexelea]

Indeed M$ can be stubborn, but in the end the consumer does win: otherwise you would not see 3 year warranties! (well, that pending lawsuits might have had a hand in that...) Sony and M$ have been sparring for a while, however, and I think it would be a real deep dent if rpgs were better supported on ps3 than 360: that's not something they could ignore.

I think in the end we all agree: It would be cool to have it multiplat. It sounds like some work for Bioware, but it would probably strengthen and widen their audience and community and that would mean they can support their franchises longer and better. I like it

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I don't think consoles have the necessary code framework to run the toolset without massive code rewrites. See, the toolset is designed to run on a specific system - Windows - which means it was developed with the understanding that it'd be able to rely upon features of windows to work. Even simply executing an .exe file built for windows (as the toolset is) requires windows code to run.



I guess you could redevelop the toolset for consoles, but it would be a terribly uphill battle since consoles start with nothing in terms of native program hooks.



And even then, I know the Oblivion CS and FO3 GECK are very heavyweight programs in terms of system resources. The Xbox 360's 512 megs of RAM, shared between the GPU and the system memory, certainly isn't enough to run it. I'm not that familiar with the Dragon Age editor, but I'd imagine it would be similarly resource-intensive.



So basically, even if Bioware did a console toolset, it would have to be nerfed heavily from is possible on the PC, and then rather than "Toolset for console players?" threads, we'd have "Waaah, the PC toolset is better!" threads.



^And all of that is totally ignoring the effect of modding on the console itself. Mods, through improper installation and use, can potentially break the console. MS definitely doesn't want to deal with that headache. PCs only get a pass with the implicit understanding that using a mod breaks the game warranty and that it's done at your own risk. Would console players understand this? I can't say for sure, but anecdotal evidence from my friends and family members says "no."

[tymay33]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

tymay33 wrote...

yes i do understand and if you've been reading this at all, the suggestion of a slimmed down version of the game for download was discussed to be compatable with the toolset, i am aware that the toolset does not include the full game. And P.S. your own statment contradicts itself

You need the client and the resources. So then you have the game. Without the client, the toolset is pointless as you can't test anything.

I do like how people seem to think that the artists, audio people, programmers and testers should have their work given away for free. Are game designers the only ones who make content you think you should pay for?

well to be honest i believ ive already paid all who deserve payment from my original purchase, and i do believe im not out of line asking for a free digital copy of the game** to be used alongside the toolset. The slimmed down version wouldnt be "special" just for us console players, its just a safeguard so their game cant be toorented and distributed easily. I dont think that it would cost all that much if anything to cut unneccesary files but if it did i stated earlier that i would be willing to pay an extra $5-10 for this slimmed down version.

** When i say this i dont mean a free playable version just toolset/testing compatable

Modifié par tymay33, 12 janvier 2010 - 01:49 .

[Sensorie]

tymay33 wrote...

well to be honest i believ ive already paid all who deserve payment from my original purchase, and i do believe im not out of line asking for a free digital copy of the game to be used alongside the toolset. The slimmed down version wouldnt be "special" just for us console players, its just a safeguard so their game cant be toorented and distributed easily. I dont think that it would cost all that much if anything to cut unneccesary files but if it did i stated earlier that i would be willing to pay an extra $5-10 for this slimmed down version.

Unfortunately that just won't happen; BioWare/EA would have you purchase the PC version. If I bought the console version of the game and I wished to use the toolset, I would also purchase the PC version. I've already bought the game twice, and more, and I chose to make sacrifices in order to do so. Just because you personally believe you've already paid your dues with a single purchase does not mean BioWare should release a slimmed down version of the game just to suit your pocket and desire to use the toolset.

[EJ42]

tymay33 wrote...

fluffyamoeba wrote...

tymay33 wrote...

yes i do understand and if you've been reading this at all, the suggestion of a slimmed down version of the game for download was discussed to be compatable with the toolset, i am aware that the toolset does not include the full game. And P.S. your own statment contradicts itself

You need the client and the resources. So then you have the game. Without the client, the toolset is pointless as you can't test anything.

I do like how people seem to think that the artists, audio people, programmers and testers should have their work given away for free. Are game designers the only ones who make content you think you should pay for?

well to be honest i believ ive already paid all who deserve payment from my original purchase, and i do believe im not out of line asking for a free digital copy of the game to be used alongside the toolset. The slimmed down version wouldnt be "special" just for us console players, its just a safeguard so their game cant be toorented and distributed easily. I dont think that it would cost all that much if anything to cut unneccesary files but if it did i stated earlier that i would be willing to pay an extra $5-10 for this slimmed down version.

Many of us, and likely Bioware disagree with you.

The benefit of the PS3 and Xbox versions is that they play on your PS3 and Xbox hardware (without the need to purchase a PC).  The benefit of the PC version is that you can get the toolset as a side bonus.

One added bonus is that you can easily transport your PS3 or Xbox with you on vacation, while my PC, monitor, keyboard, etc. are not all that portable.

The main thing that you're missing is that the whole point of supporting the PS3 and Xbox is for people Bioware does not expect to have a PC, so it's not in their best interests to try to support them with PC software.  I don't even think there is a Mac version of the toolset.  I would expect them to support Mac users before console users.

Modifié par EJ42, 12 janvier 2010 - 01:56 .

[tymay33]

EJ42 wrote...

]Many of us, and likely Bioware disagree with you.

The benefit of the PS3 and Xbox versions is that they play on your PS3 and Xbox hardware (without the need to purchase a PC).  The benefit of the PC version is that you can get the toolset as a side bonus.

One added bonus is that you can easily transport your PS3 or Xbox with you on vacation, while my PC, monitor, keyboard, etc. are not all that portable.

The main thing that you're missing is that the whole point of supporting the PS3 and Xbox is for people Bioware does not expect to have a PC, so it's not in their best interests to try to support them with PC software.  I don't even think there is a Mac version of the toolset.  I would expect them to support Mac users before console users.

REALLY??? is that the bonus for buying the console version? the reason we pay $10 more for our version? the reason there is no toolset available for console owners? Oh silly me i forgot about the sticker on the case  "EXTREMELY PORTABLE!!!"

Are you as stupid as you type? Because if i didnt know what you were refering to id think you were ****ing to laptop owners

and as to the "not having to own a PC" comment, i can comeback with an equally stupid remark saying "the benefit of having the pc version is that it plays on your pc" I would sure hope that have the xbox version i would be

@Fexelea it seems we have a visitor:pinched:

Modifié par tymay33, 12 janvier 2010 - 02:29 .

[jellmoo32]

I don't think people realize exactly how strict Sony and Microsoft standards are. Compliance testing is a massive undertaking, and is easily the most important aspect of the QA process. A single mislabeled button is enough to fail testing, and require re-submission.



As is, the the content that the toolset can create would never, ever pass the standards set by any console maker. The toolset is simply too capable. It is what was used to develop the game, not a map making pack. What can be done with it could violate way too many set standards.



The only possible way that this could go forward is if the toolset was massively trimmed down to the present a tiny fraction of what it is currently capable of. Even then, Bioware would have to prove to the console manufacturers that the toolset would not be capable of producing content that violates these standards. This would require the creation of a new toolset, qa of the toolset, and submission of the toolset to the console makers. The cost of this endeavor is simply higher than the associated benefit.

[tymay33]

jellmoo32 wrote...

I don't think people realize exactly how strict Sony and Microsoft standards are. Compliance testing is a massive undertaking, and is easily the most important aspect of the QA process. A single mislabeled button is enough to fail testing, and require re-submission.

As is, the the content that the toolset can create would never, ever pass the standards set by any console maker. The toolset is simply too capable. It is what was used to develop the game, not a map making pack. What can be done with it could violate way too many set standards.

The only possible way that this could go forward is if the toolset was massively trimmed down to the present a tiny fraction of what it is currently capable of. Even then, Bioware would have to prove to the console manufacturers that the toolset would not be capable of producing content that violates these standards. This would require the creation of a new toolset, qa of the toolset, and submission of the toolset to the console makers. The cost of this endeavor is simply higher than the associated benefit.

This thread is not about making mods applicable to console version, yes i know it has been a dicussion between some posters which is why i ask that all comments relating to mods being usable on the console versions to be directed here for now on to avoid confusion between posters.

http://social.biowar...543039/2#568739

[Fexelea]

tymay33 wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

]Many of us, and likely Bioware disagree with you.

The benefit of the PS3 and Xbox versions is that they play on your PS3 and Xbox hardware (without the need to purchase a PC).  The benefit of the PC version is that you can get the toolset as a side bonus.

One added bonus is that you can easily transport your PS3 or Xbox with you on vacation, while my PC, monitor, keyboard, etc. are not all that portable.

The main thing that you're missing is that the whole point of supporting the PS3 and Xbox is for people Bioware does not expect to have a PC, so it's not in their best interests to try to support them with PC software.  I don't even think there is a Mac version of the toolset.  I would expect them to support Mac users before console users.

REALLY??? is that the bonus for buying the console version? the reason we pay $10 more for our version? the reason there is no toolset available for console owners? Oh silly me i forgot about the sticker on the case  "EXTREMELY PORTABLE!!!"

Are you as stupid as you type? Because if i didnt know what you were refering to id think you were ****ing to laptop owners

and as to the "not having to own a PC" comment, i can comeback with an equally stupid remark saying "the benefit of having the pc version is that it plays on your pc" I would sure hope that have the xbox version i would be allowed to play it on my xbox...but hell what do i know

And with that i will kindly ask you not to return to this thread as you've shown your worth on this thread and on another regarding a very similar issue

@Fexelea it seems we have a visitor:pinched:

Lols plenty