42 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Not on the forums very often at this time, not sure how much this has been discussed in DA:O or DA2, but I'll give it a go and ask you all a question.

Why does every Grey Warden need to be given the taint?

What has been learned:
- Allows GWs to sense darkspawn.
- By taking on the taint now in a ritual, slows down ghoul process and can resist the blight since the GW is already tainted.
- Allows the GWs to end an Archdemon.
- The ritual uses Archdemon blood, an uncommon and limited resource.
- While it may not be known to all wardens, The Hero of Fereldan learns about the power that can be used from the taint.
- the GW will slowly be consumed by the taint and have to go on a Calling or suffer becoming a kind of ghoul/warden hybrid monster thing (as shown in The Calling for those who didn't read it)

Anyway, I'm sure other things can be pointed out, but my question is why does every single Warden need the taint if it is such a limited and precious resource that is desperately needed for Blights? Even right after a Blight, new wardens are brought in, and while it does give resistance, not all who fight the darkspawn need to be tainted.

An example being King Maric, who was even able to go into the Deep Roads (twice, once in youth, second while king) and even fought with Grey Wardens against darkspawn and was not affected. Certainly if one was to be infected by the blight, they can be saved by the ritual, as has been seen by the Dalish origin and Hawke's sibling.

This also reminds me of the Templars. While the Order is said to controlled by the lyrium given by the Chantry, what does that say about the taint given by the Wardens? The Order does need it to do their job, but the Wardens only need it for specific cases in their job. Why not only have officers be tainted? If it is a form of control to keep the criminals in the order, the Wardens don't seem to do much about it when someone leaves, like Alistair, the Warden if a noble, or Anders.

So, random conspiracy theory to keep this thread fun, what if there is a secret (GWs and secrets? duh...) about the First Warden. What if the First Warden is being controlled by an ancient magister like the Architect and Corypheus? A powerful one who wishes to destroy the Old Gods (vengeance or power), who can live through the taint (seen with Corypheus), and biding his or her time to take power again (using the Wardens, by controlling them after all Old Gods are removed and an opportunity presents itself). Or perhaps is pleased with the power it already has in the Anderfels and how things are currently going. So, this is why all GWs are tainted so the magister can better control the order and be able to control any GW with blight magic or something...

Of course there are holes, but this is fun and I'm missing lore threads...

[Sweawm]

Archdemon blood is not required. Regular Dark Spawn Blood does fine, and there is still plenty of Dark Spawn hanging around in the Deep Roads between Blights.

Every Grey Warden undergoes the taint to ensure their absolute survival against the same taint, as well as grant them the ability to slay Archdemons, and sense the Darkspawn if ever needed. Grey Wardens unable to do such things wouldn't be helpful at all, just regular infantry.

[AlexanderCousland]

I suppose it' s a useful resource for their duty to remain vigilant, Darkspawn are always a threat, regardless if thats common knowledge, and Warden' s must eradicate as many as possible. I assume Vigilance requires that they travel the Deep Roads, in that sense the Taint is necessary. Plus if the Warden' s have anymore prison tower' s like the one in the Virmark' s, who know' s what kind of info our Order hold' s sacred. Also, Avernus reasearch is transported to Weisshupt if you let him live, with "alarming implications". which is another subject because Demons are weakend/frightened by the Taint.

[AlexanderCousland]

Sweawm wrote...

Archdemon blood is not required. Regular Dark Spawn Blood does fine, and there is still plenty of Dark Spawn hanging around in the Deep Roads between Blights.

Every Grey Warden undergoes the taint to ensure their absolute survival against the same taint, as well as grant them the ability to slay Archdemons, and sense the Darkspawn if ever needed. Grey Wardens unable to do such things wouldn't be helpful at all, just regular infantry.

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

[Herr Uhl]

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

[Wulfram]

To me the logical course would be to turn people who got sick fighting the darkspawn, and would thus die anyway, into wardens.

And maybe the conscripts too, just so there's no going back.

[Starfang]

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

I thought Riordan said when you rescue him from Howe's dungeon that Archdemon blood is required. 

Not that I'm arguing. If DG says any darkspawn blood will do, that must be true, I just thought I remember Riordan saying otherwise. Perhaps Riordan simply doesn't know that any darkspawn blood can be used... 

[XX-Pyro]

If it required Archdemon blood how were the first Grey Wardens created?

[Jonata]

Kiatta wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

I thought Riordan said when you rescue him from Howe's dungeon that Archdemon blood is required. 

Not that I'm arguing. If DG says any darkspawn blood will do, that must be true, I just thought I remember Riordan saying otherwise. Perhaps Riordan simply doesn't know that any darkspawn blood can be used... 

It has to be magically altered to make the Ritual work properly. 

From what I understand, though, it's not an exact science, so a very rare case of a man drinking great quantities of darkspawn blood and surviving (thouhg becoming a Grey Warden by accident) is possible. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

Im not really wrong, but youre not really right either.

What he says is any darkspawn's blood can be treated, but your rank and file darkspawn doesnt have enough of the corruption within it. So, ANY darkspawn is just as false as ONLY Archdemon, so effectively, we are both wrong. 

[Swagger7]

Kiatta wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

I thought Riordan said when you rescue him from Howe's dungeon that Archdemon blood is required. 

Not that I'm arguing. If DG says any darkspawn blood will do, that must be true, I just thought I remember Riordan saying otherwise. Perhaps Riordan simply doesn't know that any darkspawn blood can be used... 

Or perhaps he doesn't know how to prepare the concoction you need with regular darkspawn blood, so the only way for him to conduct the joining would be with archdemon blood?

[Knight of Dane]

What's the conspiracy theory here, isn't op's post just a few questions?

[legbamel]

It's in the last paragraph:
"So, random conspiracy theory to keep this thread fun, what if there is a secret (GWs and secrets? duh...) about the First Warden. What if the First Warden is being controlled by an ancient magister like the Architect and Corypheus? A powerful one who wishes to destroy the Old Gods (vengeance or power), who can live through the taint (seen with Corypheus), and biding his or her time to take power again (using the Wardens, by controlling them after all Old Gods are removed and an opportunity presents itself). Or perhaps is pleased with the power it already has in the Anderfels and how things are currently going. So, this is why all GWs are tainted so the magister can better control the order and be able to control any GW with blight magic or something..."

The idea that one of the old magisters like Corypheus tricked the first Warden into tainting himself and then founding the order is kind of interesting, actually. I'll have to ponder that idea.

[Daerog]

XX-Pyro wrote...

If it required Archdemon blood how were the first Grey Wardens created?

I would assume Dumat was killed multiple times before people realized its soul moves to nearby darkspawn. How else would they know this fact?

Anyway,  I just find it curious that the Wardens make all recruits go through the ritual, which can be fatal, when it isn't (or at least doesn't seem) always necessary.

Just trying to think of a "darker" angle to the Wardens, as the only dark point so far is how compromising some can be when it comes to ending the Blights.

[Quill74Pen]

The ritual also improves the new Grey Warden's virility, but that's probably just a recruiting rumor the order spreads around Thedas. *whistles innocently*

[AshenShug4r]

FreshIstay wrote...

Im not really wrong, but youre not really right either.

What
he says is any darkspawn's blood can be treated, but your rank and file
darkspawn doesnt have enough of the corruption within it. So, ANY
darkspawn is just as false as ONLY Archdemon, so effectively, we are
both wrong. 

You said it required Archdemon blood when it doesn't. I'd call that being wrong.

[Newschmoo]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...


So, random conspiracy theory to keep this thread fun, what if there is a secret (GWs and secrets? duh...) about the First Warden. What if the First Warden is being controlled by an ancient magister like the Architect and Corypheus? A powerful one who wishes to destroy the Old Gods (vengeance or power), who can live through the taint (seen with Corypheus), and biding his or her time to take power again (using the Wardens, by controlling them after all Old Gods are removed and an opportunity presents itself). Or perhaps is pleased with the power it already has in the Anderfels and how things are currently going. So, this is why all GWs are tainted so the magister can better control the order and be able to control any GW with blight magic or something...

Of course there are holes, but this is fun and I'm missing lore threads...

I think this is an interesting idea that could be explored further in future games, particularly because it is not really clear if Corypheus is dead (after the Legacy DLC), as there are rumours he may have taken over the bodies of either Larius or Janeka at the end.

[daft inquisitor]

FreshIstay wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

No the joinig requires Archdemon blood and Lyrium, Blood magic if you will. 

You're wrong.

Im not really wrong, but youre not really right either.

What he says is any darkspawn's blood can be treated, but your rank and file darkspawn doesnt have enough of the corruption within it. So, ANY darkspawn is just as false as ONLY Archdemon, so effectively, we are both wrong. 

You're misinterpreting. Treating the "any Darkspawn" blood with magic is what increases its potency to that of Archdemon blood, meaning that ANY BLOOD can be used, but it must be magically treated first.

I'm under the impression that Rioridan said Archdemon blood was required because he didn't know that Mages had found a way to increase the effectiveness of the taint in regular Darkspawn blood. Heck, it could be a Ferelden invention, and the Orlesian Wardens haven't heard about it.

To the OP's question:
In a normal blight, I'd assume there are just hordes of Wardens trying to get to the Darkspawn at once. You never know who's going to be the actual one to make it to the Archdemon and do the killing blow, so you have to have your ass covered by making sure EVERY Warden has the ability to end the Blight.

Modifié par ShadowDragoonFTW, 12 janvier 2013 - 12:44 .

[nightscrawl]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

An example being King Maric, who was even able to go into the Deep Roads (twice, once in youth, second while king) and even fought with Grey Wardens against darkspawn and was not affected. Certainly if one was to be infected by the blight, they can be saved by the ritual, as has been seen by the Dalish origin and Hawke's sibling.

I would say that this is probably a sign that Maric would have survived the joining, as Alistair did. In fact, darkspawn taint resistance might be genetic, who knows?

Certainly if one was to be infected by the blight, they can be saved by the ritual, as has been seen by the Dalish origin and Hawke's sibling.

The ritual is NOT a blanket cure of the taint. The person could just as easily die during it. We don't actually know what the survival rate is, and I hardly think that the examples we have seen in game count as those deaths and survivals are plot driven to deprive (Daveth, Jory, Mhairi) or provide (Anders, Oghren, Nathaniel, Sigrun, Velanna, DA2 sibling) our PC with certain companions.

If it is a form of control to keep the criminals in the order, the Wardens don't seem to do much about it when someone leaves, like Alistair, the Warden if a noble, or Anders.

These are both bad examples. If Alistair becomes king I don't think the Wardens would push their luck and try to make him remain in the order. Also, having a Warden turned king on the throne is great PR for them. I can't really speak to him being a drunkard in Kirkwall as I've never seen it, but they could certainly be of the attitude that he isn't worth it in that sorry state. For Anders, he does sound like he is trying to flee the Wardens. However, with his issues with Justice, the content of the Anders short story, and his known history of escapes, he might be more trouble than he's worth.

As to the point of all Wardens having the taint, it is more efficient. All grey Wardens have it, it is part of being a Grey Warden. Not only does it provide camaraderie among all Wardens ("Join us brothers and sisters"), if you know that all of your troops have a resistance to the taint and you go into the Deep Roads, you are stronger as a unit. You are only as strong as your weakest link.

Finally, a big deal seems to be made that the Wardens do not eschew criminals in their recruitment. While this is true, they are not the same as the Night's Watch in A Song of Ice and Fire series, who routinely clean out the dungeons for candidates. As Duncan shows us in DAO, they recruit as the opportunity arises, whether that be a templar in training (Alistair), an Arl's knight (Jory), a thief (Daveth), or the helpful acts in the Dalish and human noble origins. And as mentioned, the joining is a death sentence for some, even if their "crimes" don't merit it.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 12 janvier 2013 - 02:06 .

[DarthLaxian]

hm...

why would a magister want tainted people around? (coripheus tells us the black city was already tainted and the magisters suffered for it and i guess their successors would not want more taint around...)

as for Dumat - yes, i guess that beast was killed more times then one (it was called unstoppable because it could jump bodies IMHO)

as for tainting everyone: i would not do that either (i would give every warden the treated blood that would taint them for emergencies (like say a blight or them being in contact with darkspawn blood and tainted already) but i would force nobody into this (i have my issues with Duncan and Alistair for saying that...i would have loved to curse Duncan and run (and later turn back to help Alistair or something))

so yeah, there might be something behind that (maybe a secret contract with the dwarfs (they respect the wardens for - THE CALLING because they go to Orzammar and the deep roads and fight the darkspawn there!)? or an agreement with the chantry (can't have powerfull people outsided the law live to long can we)?...)

so yeah, there might be some secret behind that and i would love to find out

greetings LAX

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 12 janvier 2013 - 02:40 .

[gangly369]

Basically I agree with everything that nightscrawl said, very well put. In terms of tainting everyone in the order, I would see it as being a system of everyone being treated equally. I mean, who exactly would volunteer to take the ritual while everyone else got to just sit back and become Grey Wardens regardless? How do you determine who takes the ritual and who doesn't?

Also, it serves a useful purpose in that it allows the Warden to sense if an archdemon has been awakened. As is, there are a limited amount of Wardens, and having as many as possible spread throughout Thedas is key so that they have someone to deal with the Archdemon no matter where it may appear.

Another example of why having people take the ritual upon joining the order: Say there are 100 wardens in a region. Only 10 of them have taken the ritual. Archdemon appears. Wardens have the 90 people take the ritual. 85 of them die. Now you're left with 15 Wardens against an Archdemon and it's horde of darkspawn. Whoops. Now, if the Wardens had just done the ritual to everyone upon joining, they would have been more prepared because they would be able to actively recruit more people until they reached their desired quota.

And finally, even when there isn't an archdemon, there are still the darkspawn to contend with. And as the situation stands now, the Dwarves, the only race that is actively trying to contain the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads, are at their breaking point. If I was the First Warden at this point in time, I would be trying to recruit as many Wardens as possible and push down into the deep roads to help the dwarves fight. While it may sound like a stupid ability to be able to sense the darkspawn, in the deep roads where there are numerous places to hide and ambush enemies, it's a skill that would be invaluable to have.

Edit: Also forgot to mention the fact that Corypheus and (potentially) the Architect are running around right now, basically acting as mini-Archdemons. And who knows, there may be other tainted magisters like them just sleeping, waiting to be awakened. The Grey Wardens have to stay vigiliant right now

Modifié par gangly369, 12 janvier 2013 - 05:36 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Not on the forums very often at this time, not sure how much this has been discussed in DA:O or DA2, but I'll give it a go and ask you all a question.

Why does every Grey Warden need to be given the taint?

What has been learned:
- Allows GWs to sense darkspawn.
- By taking on the taint now in a ritual, slows down ghoul process and can resist the blight since the GW is already tainted.
- Allows the GWs to end an Archdemon.
- The ritual uses Archdemon blood, an uncommon and limited resource.
- While it may not be known to all wardens, The Hero of Fereldan learns about the power that can be used from the taint.
- the GW will slowly be consumed by the taint and have to go on a Calling or suffer becoming a kind of ghoul/warden hybrid monster thing (as shown in The Calling for those who didn't read it)

Anyway, I'm sure other things can be pointed out, but my question is why does every single Warden need the taint if it is such a limited and precious resource that is desperately needed for Blights? Even right after a Blight, new wardens are brought in, and while it does give resistance, not all who fight the darkspawn need to be tainted.

An example being King Maric, who was even able to go into the Deep Roads (twice, once in youth, second while king) and even fought with Grey Wardens against darkspawn and was not affected. Certainly if one was to be infected by the blight, they can be saved by the ritual, as has been seen by the Dalish origin and Hawke's sibling.

This also reminds me of the Templars. While the Order is said to controlled by the lyrium given by the Chantry, what does that say about the taint given by the Wardens? The Order does need it to do their job, but the Wardens only need it for specific cases in their job. Why not only have officers be tainted? If it is a form of control to keep the criminals in the order, the Wardens don't seem to do much about it when someone leaves, like Alistair, the Warden if a noble, or Anders.

So, random conspiracy theory to keep this thread fun, what if there is a secret (GWs and secrets? duh...) about the First Warden. What if the First Warden is being controlled by an ancient magister like the Architect and Corypheus? A powerful one who wishes to destroy the Old Gods (vengeance or power), who can live through the taint (seen with Corypheus), and biding his or her time to take power again (using the Wardens, by controlling them after all Old Gods are removed and an opportunity presents itself). Or perhaps is pleased with the power it already has in the Anderfels and how things are currently going. So, this is why all GWs are tainted so the magister can better control the order and be able to control any GW with blight magic or something...

Of course there are holes, but this is fun and I'm missing lore threads...

... and all this has what do with Dragon Age 3, precisely?

[gangly369]

Well considering how little information there is in regards to DA3, a grey warden conspiracy may just happen to pop up in the game. So I see no problem with someone posting this here. Besides which, this is something more in general to the DA universe, meaning it could be posted here or in the DA2 forums. Doesn't really matter.

[Swagger7]

nightscrawl wrote...


We don't actually know what the survival rate is, and I hardly think that the examples we have seen in game count as those deaths and survivals are plot driven to deprive (Daveth, Jory, Mhairi) or provide (Anders, Oghren, Nathaniel, Sigrun, Velanna, DA2 sibling) our PC with certain companions.

There is one indication of what the normal death rate should be.  Alistair mentioned that only one died during his joining.  Obviously, there had to have been at least three present when that happened, otherwise saying "only one" wouldn't make any sense.  We don't know how many were involved, but at least three seems reasonable.  So there's an incident of at least 1/3 survival or better.  Now, one point of data does not a pattern establish, so take this with a pound of salt. 

Also, consider that while the devs killed Jory for the plot they still had choices in the manner of his death.  Perhaps they killed him through violence to avoid giving people an overblown estimation of how dangerous the joining is?  (pure speculation)

It would be nice to get a ballpark answer, for curiosity's sake.  If I had to wager a guess, I'd peg the survival rate at between 2/3-3/4 or so.  I won't pretend to be able to defend those numbers of course.

[gneisenau556]

I wonder if one could make an amulet that has darkspawn blood/taint, which allows one to sense darkspawn ?