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[Neon Rising Winter]

gneisenau556 wrote...

I wonder if one could make an amulet that has darkspawn blood/taint, which allows one to sense darkspawn ?

I don't know about an amulet, but it would make sense you could do it to an animal. I can just see the dwarves with their little grey warden nugs in cages to alert them to approaching darkspawn.

[Reikilea]

Oh, god not another demon made me do it. Definitely not another character controlled by the ancient magic.Besides Magisters worshipped old gods. Old gods persuaded them to enter Golden city and free them from their prison.

And Grey wardens have one purpose - stop the blight. More interesting would be if the first warden was an old god who wants to make things right and get rid of the taint.

And besides who exactly are old gods? Who exactly are elven gods? This whole one god-maker- his bride-first sin conflict is kind of a fantasy interpretation of a bible. I surely hope there is more to the story, not only Maker is right everything else is bad. (I kind of want Neil Gaiman to get his hands on it and rewrite it so it would be more clever and original - he already created an awesome version of a heaven/hell)

[Sith Grey Warden]

Reikilea wrote...

And besides who exactly are old gods? Who exactly are elven gods? This whole one god-maker- his bride-first sin conflict is kind of a fantasy interpretation of a bible. I surely hope there is more to the story, not only Maker is right everything else is bad. (I kind of want Neil Gaiman to get his hands on it and rewrite it so it would be more clever and original - he already created an awesome version of a heaven/hell)

The old gods were a bunch of male high dragons. Specifically, they were the only male high dragons. The Tevinters worshipped them and called them gods. We don't know much about the elven gods, but they certainly aren't pushing "the Maker is right and everything else is bad" given that the Chantry is a fairly oppressive organization and that the Maker comes across as nearing Zeus in terms of character flaws.

[Zardoc]

Don't make the Wardens a Cerberus 2.0

It wasn't fun in Mass Effect. Even less so if it happened in Dragon Age.

[AlexanderCousland]

Zardoc wrote...

Don't make the Wardens a Cerberus 2.0

It wasn't fun in Mass Effect. Even less so if it happened in Dragon Age.

This. 

100% Agree

[Daerog]

Well, I was not meaning to suggest that this is the case, just wanted to throw in some thoughts I've been having on the GWs. I'm glad people are pointing out holes, as I said that there are holes. As for King Alistair being good for the Wardens, he is going against what the Wardens have said about not being involved in in the business of different nations (even though Warden's Keep wardens and the Anderfels are also examples of Wardens going against what they've said, for good or ill).

Anyway, all for fun in the lore of Thedas.

gneisenau556 wrote...

I wonder if one could make an amulet that has darkspawn blood/taint, which allows one to sense darkspawn ?

The Circle (of Fereldan at least) can make ones that speed up the taint process, so who knows? With the knowledge given to the previous First Enchanter of Fereldan and Avernus' experiments, I bet... wait... Didn't Maric have a sword with runes that glowed when darkspawn were near or something? It at least fought against the taint or something... why don't the Wardens have more of that stuff? Lost dwarven stuff seems so handy.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 13 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[Reikilea]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

And besides who exactly are old gods? Who exactly are elven gods? This whole one god-maker- his bride-first sin conflict is kind of a fantasy interpretation of a bible. I surely hope there is more to the story, not only Maker is right everything else is bad. (I kind of want Neil Gaiman to get his hands on it and rewrite it so it would be more clever and original - he already created an awesome version of a heaven/hell)

The old gods were a bunch of male high dragons. Specifically, they were the only male high dragons. The Tevinters worshipped them and called them gods. We don't know much about the elven gods, but they certainly aren't pushing "the Maker is right and everything else is bad" given that the Chantry is a fairly oppressive organization and that the Maker comes across as nearing Zeus in terms of character flaws.

Yes. That the basic explanation. But where did they came from? Why they are called gods? Old gods specifically.. And why Maker imprisoned them. Was is only because the - you are not true gods or is there something else behind it? I think this is one of the things that should be explained. So far now we only have possible baby who has a soul of an untainted old god - somethign that Bioware started with Morigan and still left open. 

Eh I meant it more in that sense that Maker is definition of everything good. He is very similar to the Christian God. I don´t really recall he was ever presented badly. It´s mostly his followers who does bad things.

[Swagger7]

You know, just because Corypheus was tainted doesn't mean he is anymore. The taint could be purely physical, and thus stay behind when he swapped bodies (if that is in fact what happened).

[Daerog]

Well, the blight surely isn't just physical. As people can draw from it to do magic instead of drawing from the Fade. The taint is just the blight in a person and has many properties not yet discovered. So, almost any speculation can arise when the blight is concerned. Even look at the Children, they seem to come purely from the blight and maybe designed or helped along by the Mother. It's like an anti-Fade, maybe, but this is still all speculation.

[Dhiro]

Grey agenda?

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

It's my understanding that you do need Arch Demon blood (one or two drops) along with three vials of regular darkspawn blood and lyrium to make the joining cup; Alistair and Riordan both tell you this. Loghain also confiscated the arch demon blood out of the GW compound in Denerim and most likely started the rumor of the Grey Wardens worship the Arch Demon when him/Howe found the blood in the compound.

Grey Warden conspiracy, well ok, here is one for folks to think on or discuss, what if Dumat is the one who told the Grey Wardens about the dark ritual and how to really kill an Arch Demon or save/cleanse the dragon's soul, thus the dragon could be reborn like Morrigan said and it will have the immunity similar to that of a Grey Warden in regards to the taint. This is why she needed a tainted warden who was yet fairly newly tainted. Alistair is what tainted by six months to that of The Warden.

I want to know why Alistair was allowed to leave the order when he is made KIng. So now we have Alistair and Fiona both leaving the Wardens. So does this mean that Alistair is also cured of the taint now? Anders ran away from the order, he wasn't removed like Alistair. Given Fiona isn't tainted anymore I'm assuming two things with Alistair as KIng: it will be in the interest of the Wardens for him to remain as such and as long as Alistair is King or his Father the Wardens will always have a home in Ferelden. Did the Dark Ritual cleanse Alistair of the taint or does the First Warden know of a cure?

[Renmiri1]

I think Archdemon blood may be needed to kill an Archdemon, i.e. to end a blight. Maybe not for the rank and file. Although if the only thing needed was 3 vials of Darkspawn blood, then why didn't the dwarves use it, at least with their Legion of the Dead ? The advantages are immense and most of them wont live enough to die from taint

[Swagger7]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I think Archdemon blood may be needed to kill an Archdemon, i.e. to end a blight. Maybe not for the rank and file. Although if the only thing needed was 3 vials of Darkspawn blood, then why didn't the dwarves use it, at least with their Legion of the Dead ? The advantages are immense and most of them wont live enough to die from taint

They don't know how to do it because the Gray Wardens keep it secret.

[Orian Tabris]

A Grey Warden conspiracy? Well, if you say so. I hate those Grey Wardens!

Those Grey Wardens are evil! Every one of them should die! Not just die, but be publically humiliated! In front of America and the good Christian believers Orlais and the holy Andrastrian Chantry, or else the whole world all of Thedas! They will hurt and sensitise sensitize our children, and destroy the human race! They're no better than the Qunari!

P.S. I actually didn't read (the whole) original post.

[Dagr88]

Conspiracy theory...

Old God's escape plan:

Persuade Magisters to go to Golden City
Spread the Taint
Use Darkspawn to escape underground dungeon (by singing to them...obviously)

Be slayed by Grey Wardens (which maybe they helped to create [the point of the topic]) to escape Darkspawn reincarnation cycle.
Be reborn as a random human and maybe loose memory of being a OG (Dumat's OGB - Andraste)
At some point rediscover your heritage (Flemeth - one of the next OGBs)
Create Dark Ritual to know exactly where the next OGB will be born (no need for searching and baby will discover it's heritage early on)

Profit? (Maybe being in a gods body has it's disadvantages after the Veil was created)

High Ranked Grey Wardens may or may not know their roll in all this.

Modifié par Dagr88, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:50 .

[daft inquisitor]

Reikilea wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

And besides who exactly are old gods? Who exactly are elven gods? This whole one god-maker- his bride-first sin conflict is kind of a fantasy interpretation of a bible. I surely hope there is more to the story, not only Maker is right everything else is bad. (I kind of want Neil Gaiman to get his hands on it and rewrite it so it would be more clever and original - he already created an awesome version of a heaven/hell)

The old gods were a bunch of male high dragons. Specifically, they were the only male high dragons. The Tevinters worshipped them and called them gods. We don't know much about the elven gods, but they certainly aren't pushing "the Maker is right and everything else is bad" given that the Chantry is a fairly oppressive organization and that the Maker comes across as nearing Zeus in terms of character flaws.

Yes. That the basic explanation. But where did they came from? Why they are called gods? Old gods specifically.. And why Maker imprisoned them. Was is only because the - you are not true gods or is there something else behind it? I think this is one of the things that should be explained. So far now we only have possible baby who has a soul of an untainted old god - somethign that Bioware started with Morigan and still left open. 

Eh I meant it more in that sense that Maker is definition of everything good. He is very similar to the Christian God. I don´t really recall he was ever presented badly. It´s mostly his followers who does bad things.

They are the "Old Gods" because they were the primarily worshipped entities before Andrasteism came into existance. Kind of like how on earth, Norse and Greek gods are often called the "Old Gods" because they were worshipped in many large countries before Catholicism/Christianity became as prevalent as it has.

Also, I thought that the Elven Gods were also the Old Gods, which is why they are the "Old Gods", as the Elves are (supposedly) an older race than Humans?

[Ashevajak]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Anyway, I'm sure other things can be pointed out, but my question is why
does every single Warden need the taint if it is such a limited and
precious resource that is desperately needed for Blights? Even right
after a Blight, new wardens are brought in, and while it does give
resistance, not all who fight the darkspawn need to be tainted.

They don't need to be, but it's certainly helpful.  We don't really get to see the effects of the taint on an ordinary fighting force in either game, but my belief is that it would not be pretty.  Given the amount of blood being spilt at close quarters...well, I wouldn't want to put a number on it, but the loss of troops from the taint could really devastate a military, even if they won the battle.

By making every single Warden undergo the Joining, you maximize their usefullness.  For the next couple of decades at least, which is probably more time than they would have if they had not been tainted and were fighting Darkspawn on a semi-routine basis.  The benefits of tainting them definitely outweigh the costs, from that perspective.  Consider Duncan, a veteran of the Order, dying because he got tainted.  All that experience and talent would be lost, and not be easy to replace.

Now, as to the question of the Grey Wardens being manipulated themselves...that is an interesting notion.  Their tainted blood gives them a link with the Darkspawn and the Old Gods, not to mention whatever Corypheus was (let's say "Magister", for the sake of argument).  We also know the Joining looks to be effectively a blood magic ritual.  

We know blood magic's most fearsome property, apart from making people's veins boil and pop while still inside them, is mind control.  And we know all the Wardens are linked in some way not just with the Darkspawn, but with sufficiently strong Darkspawn in particular.  Every Warden suffers the nightmares of the Archdemon when a Blight starts.  Corypheus exerts a strong influence over Janeka and Anders.  Could this influence also cover mental manipulation?  It certainly seemed to, in the case of Janeka, though that is a questionable interpretation, I will admit.

Then there is lyrium, which is also used in the Joining.  We know the Archdemon "sings" to the Darkspawn, as does Corypheus, but Justice reported hearing singing from the lyrium ring.  Bartrand also claimed the red lyrium idol sang to him...with a severe toll on his own mental well-being (and the physical well-being of anyone too close to him).  Anders says, when examining Bartrand, that had he not been a dwarf, he would have suspected that his mind had been poisoned by an extremely powerful demon.

We still don't know the full story regarding that, but it has some interesting implications.  Does usage of lyrium, or certain kinds of lyrium, make one more receptive to this "singing"?  Is the singing Bartrand and Justice heard the same?  Is the singing that Bartrand and Justice hear the song of the Archdemon?  Has the primeval lyrium being treated in a certain way to bring about this trait, or is it inherent in the primeval lyrium, or a potential for all lyrium? And what of Templars, who heavily use lyrium themselves?

We also know from DA2 that the Grey Wardens had originally intended to breach the Primeval Thaig.  Did they know what they would find there?  That the First Warden sent Nathan to investigate the Thaig suggests it is of a very high priority to the Order, but their motives and knowledge of the place is, as of yet, unknown. 

The above is, admittedly, a whole lot of speculation and linking together of things which don't as of yet make sense or have adequate explanations.  We do know the Darkspawn, while not the main focus of DA:I, will be present in the game, so I am hoping that also means the Grey Wardens will also be present.  It'd be nice to at least get some answers about what was so important in 9:34 that a Qunari takeover of Kirkwall was a secondary concern to the Order, or the identity of the "allies" Nathan speaks so cryptically about. 

[LadyVaJedi]

Didn't Al's mamma get rid of the taint as well in one of the first books? If she did I am wondering couldn't Al and our G.W. if the dark ritual was done do the same thing.