I read in the forum that 2 daggers give highest DPS. I am wondering why not 2 main-hand weapons? An I missing something?
DualWield for DPS - 2 main-hand weapons or 2 daggers
Débuté par
starfire888
, janv. 08 2010 01:06
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#3
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 01:17
soteria
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That's the short answer. There's more to it--attack speed is a big factor, not least because poisons and runes and weapon enchants aren't normalized for attack speed. Additionally, daggers rely on dexterity for damage, while larger weapons need strength. Since dual wield talents require pretty high dexterity, dagger-wielders are able to leverage more of their stats.
Larger weapons do look better for doing damage with dual weapon sweep and whirlwind, but momentum will contribute a much greater amount of damage.
Larger weapons do look better for doing damage with dual weapon sweep and whirlwind, but momentum will contribute a much greater amount of damage.
#4
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 07:11
JorgenCAB
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Will this not depend on the type of character that you play with. If you go with a Warrior build (ex. dual wield/archery) and want heavy armor, then 1-handed weapons might be just as effective since they get the full benefit of your strength and you might actually have more strength than dexterity anyway.
If you go with a more dexterous build using light or medium armor then daggers will be more efficient. A rouge certainly will use daggers much more efficiently.
You might not always want to use the most optimum build either since this is an RPG after all so the mood is just as important. In my current game I have equipped my Rouge with Wades superior Dragon skin medium armor... this gives him both great looks and protection as well as much needed negative fatigue....
...though it require a strength of 34. Still his dexterity is much higher so daggers are his weapon of choice but a sword will still do slightly more damage and the best 1-handed weapons in the game are generally more powerful than the best daggers in the game. At least I think they are.
If you go with a more dexterous build using light or medium armor then daggers will be more efficient. A rouge certainly will use daggers much more efficiently.
You might not always want to use the most optimum build either since this is an RPG after all so the mood is just as important. In my current game I have equipped my Rouge with Wades superior Dragon skin medium armor... this gives him both great looks and protection as well as much needed negative fatigue....
...though it require a strength of 34. Still his dexterity is much higher so daggers are his weapon of choice but a sword will still do slightly more damage and the best 1-handed weapons in the game are generally more powerful than the best daggers in the game. At least I think they are.
Modifié par JorgenCAB, 08 janvier 2010 - 07:15 .
#5
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 07:27
starfire888
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how to I see the attack speed of my weapon?
#6
Posté 08 janvier 2010 - 09:35
Haplose
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JorgenCAB wrote...
Will this not depend on the type of character that you play with. If you go with a Warrior build (ex. dual wield/archery) and want heavy armor, then 1-handed weapons might be just as effective since they get the full benefit of your strength and you might actually have more strength than dexterity anyway.
If you go with a more dexterous build using light or medium armor then daggers will be more efficient. A rouge certainly will use daggers much more efficiently.
You might not always want to use the most optimum build either since this is an RPG after all so the mood is just as important. In my current game I have equipped my Rouge with Wades superior Dragon skin medium armor... this gives him both great looks and protection as well as much needed negative fatigue....
No, the daggers will still be better for auto-attack, especially with damage runes.
Larger weapons will be better for active skills (Sweep, Whirlwing, Punisher, etc.).
#7
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 09:02
JorgenCAB
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This still depends on whether you concentrate on strength or dexterity as a Worrior. If you have more strength than dexterity you will do more damage with swords than daggers after a while. I have tested this with the latest patch. Even if daggers are slightly faster they do slightly less damage due to the fact that each strength give you a full point of damage for one attribute point instead of half a point on a dagger.
As a powerful dual wield warrior all you need is minimum dexterity and max strength and the disengage talent and you will be extremely powerful in combat and deal extreme amount of damage. You can easily end up with a character at level 25 that has a strength of 60+ and dexterity of 36. Since you can get about 11 dexterity from equipment and weapons this kind of build are quite viable indeed.
One handed weapons will also as you said deal more damage with the talents than daggers will so here you have another advantage with swords over daggers.
Rouges and warriors use the dual wield very differently. You can go with a dexterity warrior, but they are not nearly as effective as a dexterity focused rouge. As a warrior you go with strength and full size weapons. Usually, as a Rogue, you don't even bother getting the talent that enable you do dual wield full sized weapons. Another benefit with this talent are that your other dual wield talent are lowered in cost as well. When you equip your warrior with Wades superior heavy dragon armor you are down to negative fatigue as well. This means that a Warrior with his greater stamina will be able to use many more dual wield talents in combat and be well armored to boot.
If you play a rogue, then daggers will be your weapons of choice since there are so many other talents that scale better with low strength and you may later replace strength with cunning for damage since it is better to get cunning than strength for a rogue.
You need to see past only the damage part of this and see that using dexterity or strength builds two very different types of characters where strength suit Warriors and dexterity suit Rogues.
As a powerful dual wield warrior all you need is minimum dexterity and max strength and the disengage talent and you will be extremely powerful in combat and deal extreme amount of damage. You can easily end up with a character at level 25 that has a strength of 60+ and dexterity of 36. Since you can get about 11 dexterity from equipment and weapons this kind of build are quite viable indeed.
One handed weapons will also as you said deal more damage with the talents than daggers will so here you have another advantage with swords over daggers.
Rouges and warriors use the dual wield very differently. You can go with a dexterity warrior, but they are not nearly as effective as a dexterity focused rouge. As a warrior you go with strength and full size weapons. Usually, as a Rogue, you don't even bother getting the talent that enable you do dual wield full sized weapons. Another benefit with this talent are that your other dual wield talent are lowered in cost as well. When you equip your warrior with Wades superior heavy dragon armor you are down to negative fatigue as well. This means that a Warrior with his greater stamina will be able to use many more dual wield talents in combat and be well armored to boot.
If you play a rogue, then daggers will be your weapons of choice since there are so many other talents that scale better with low strength and you may later replace strength with cunning for damage since it is better to get cunning than strength for a rogue.
You need to see past only the damage part of this and see that using dexterity or strength builds two very different types of characters where strength suit Warriors and dexterity suit Rogues.
Modifié par JorgenCAB, 09 janvier 2010 - 09:27 .
#8
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 02:53
tetracycloide
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Even for a high strength warrior build it's often optimal for overall DPS to equip a dagger in the offhand for the attack speed bonus. Between the attack speed bonus and all its other stats I would imagine The Rose's Thorn to be damn near best in slot for the offhand of any dual wield warrior, even one with Dual-Weapon Mastery.
The reason a rogue uses daggers is because there are talents that add fixed amounts of damage to backstabs so they want to backstab as often and as quickly as possible. They're not really 'low strength' builds since, on a rogue with lethality, high cunning is the same thing as high strength.
The reason a rogue uses daggers is because there are talents that add fixed amounts of damage to backstabs so they want to backstab as often and as quickly as possible. They're not really 'low strength' builds since, on a rogue with lethality, high cunning is the same thing as high strength.
#9
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 03:04
ChaoticBroth
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Keep in mind that while daggers are inherently faster to use and attack with (Momentum comes to mind here), swords take 100% Strength, and Strength improves the physical resistance stat (something fairly useful, since most enemies rely on melee attacks.). As well, keep in mind that swords have a 100% attribute modifier, while daggers take on an 85% attribute modifier. Daggers are nice for backstabbing and stuff, but if you're going for pure damage numbers, swords are your friends. And swords also have an inherently higher damage, coming out to five points higher than daggers. While it may not seem much, consider how many attacks you'll be using with your weapon of choice.
#10
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 03:48
tetracycloide
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The attribute modifier when dual wielding is much much smaller than 100% or even 85%. On a longsword it's going to average out at around 37.5% and on a dagger it's going to average out 15.9375% (per attribute for a total of around 31%). Any dagger, no matter what stats, will always increase the DPS of a main hand sword by ~ 17% just by virtue of the fact that it increases the swing speed of both weapons. Can the stats and damage of an offhand sword or axe keep up with an inherent 17% main hand damage mod hidden on every dagger? In most cases the answer is no.
#11
Posté 09 janvier 2010 - 04:33
soteria
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Dexterity also adds to physical resistance, so that's not a reason to pick strength. Having played a rogue with 34 strength with swords and one with daggers (Zevran) I can tell you from personal experience the extra damage from swords doesn't make up the attack speed loss, even before you count flaming weapons, runes, and poisons.
In other words, even with all the stat boosts, my PC rogue didn't do more damage than Zevran can with a dex/cunning build.
In other words, even with all the stat boosts, my PC rogue didn't do more damage than Zevran can with a dex/cunning build.
Modifié par soteria, 09 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .
#12
Posté 10 janvier 2010 - 12:39
JorgenCAB
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I would say that a strength of 34 are very low for a late character, my last dual wield warrior had close to 70 in strength or some such, and a dexterity of 40 or so. Every step above 40 in this case will give me a full damage benefit where it on a dagger only give me 50%. The lower attribute output on daggers in comparison with a sword are actually slightly less on the whole even when you factor in speed and the fact you only get to benefit from half of each attribute. When you start to get really high strength this will show quite clearly.
The major benefit with daggers are that their critical chance is hvery high and speed is here a more important factor. This is also why I would prefer daggers on a Rogue and Sword or Axe on a Warrior.
The Warrior will simply dish out much more frontal damage while the rouge do more critical hits and back stab damage. They simply do different stuff. You also need to factor in that a warrior with their massive hard hitting weapons will be able to perform more dual wield maneuvers and each of them will hit much harder.
You should trust me when I say that my 60+ strength warrior do more damage than my 60+ Dex Rogue in a straight up fight. The Warrior can almost wade through a bunch of normal foes using whirlwind attack etc...
One on one against each other my bet would be on the Rogue since he is a master Duelist and this is a nasty specialization which a warrior could never match.
The major benefit with daggers are that their critical chance is hvery high and speed is here a more important factor. This is also why I would prefer daggers on a Rogue and Sword or Axe on a Warrior.
The Warrior will simply dish out much more frontal damage while the rouge do more critical hits and back stab damage. They simply do different stuff. You also need to factor in that a warrior with their massive hard hitting weapons will be able to perform more dual wield maneuvers and each of them will hit much harder.
You should trust me when I say that my 60+ strength warrior do more damage than my 60+ Dex Rogue in a straight up fight. The Warrior can almost wade through a bunch of normal foes using whirlwind attack etc...
One on one against each other my bet would be on the Rogue since he is a master Duelist and this is a nasty specialization which a warrior could never match.
Modifié par JorgenCAB, 10 janvier 2010 - 12:45 .
#13
Posté 11 janvier 2010 - 03:26
maxernst
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Hmmm...I've been fighting my rogue with long sword/dagger, maybe I should switch to daggers in both hands. I'm conditioned to think of bigger weapons being more effective, I guess.
Does anybody else think it's peculiar that in fantasy games, that the edge tends to be toward either two handed weapons or dual-wielding? Historically, a one-handed weapon and shield was generally much more popular than a two-handed weapon and dual wielding was rare...and when used (e.g. Florentine style fighting with a rapier & main-gauche), the second weapon was mostly for blocking. Fighting with two full size swords was practically unheard-of, except for a few legendary Japanese samurai.
Does anybody else think it's peculiar that in fantasy games, that the edge tends to be toward either two handed weapons or dual-wielding? Historically, a one-handed weapon and shield was generally much more popular than a two-handed weapon and dual wielding was rare...and when used (e.g. Florentine style fighting with a rapier & main-gauche), the second weapon was mostly for blocking. Fighting with two full size swords was practically unheard-of, except for a few legendary Japanese samurai.
#14
Posté 11 janvier 2010 - 04:53
SusanStoHelit
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2-handers make the guys feel tough and macho. Dual wielding makes them feel like super cool killing machines, mixmasters gone crazy. Reality has nothing to do with it. The look and the image says it all. Toys for boys. ;-)
#15
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 01:40
Khumak
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maxernst wrote...
Does anybody else think it's peculiar that in fantasy games, that the edge tends to be toward either two handed weapons or dual-wielding? Historically, a one-handed weapon and shield was generally much more popular than a two-handed weapon and dual wielding was rare...and when used (e.g. Florentine style fighting with a rapier & main-gauche), the second weapon was mostly for blocking. Fighting with two full size swords was practically unheard-of, except for a few legendary Japanese samurai.
Defensively sword and board is still vastly superior in DAO, it just doesn't get as much air time on the boards as DPS. A S&B warrior is immune to flanking (this is huge), immune to knockdowns (this is also huge), and gets a decent bonus against archery attacks (not huge but nice).
Personally, I think S&B warriors are superior for mage heavy parties where the only thing you really need from the warrior is to draw the enemy into a nice tight group so you can pound them with AE damage. Their job is to draw then enemy and survive. The flanking immunity is key to this survival. Their DPS is not important. This works especially well if they have 100% spell immunity. For many battles all I have to do to clear the screen is send Alistair in, CP a white once they make a nice tight group, and then VWB. Boom, everything is dead.
In a melee heavy group you may be better off with a 2H warrior or a DW warrior. Personally, I'd say a 2H warrior is superior as the tank and then a DW warrior for DPS if needed.
#16
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 02:09
knownastherat
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Historically, there were no mages or health bars for example ..
I have to disagree that sword and shield is superior to anything. It can be MMO tank or durable and flexible character, but the game does not require such character in the first place. Lets not forget this is a game which does not require to invest much, if anything at all, in Constitution even for a "true" tank which implies it is possible to either out-heal damage taken or not take it in the first place. DW from my experience (7+4+14 Strength for Death Blow +1 Cunning and rest in Dexterity) gets flanked, gets stunned, gets knocked (with occasional frequency I would call it) but it does not prevent him to come up on the top DPS wise not in some theoretical sense, but in fact, in length of fights. 3 runes slots more are/can be huge plus. DW holds aggro better than any other melee in my opinion too because with attack, defense, attack speed, and damage and special bonuses the game, with its level scaling, cannot handle such beating, and presents situation worthy of a "true" tank rather rarely.
If one could get through the game "smoother" with identical set up except for a tank, where sword and shiled or 2H would feel "smoother", I would be surprised.
I have to disagree that sword and shield is superior to anything. It can be MMO tank or durable and flexible character, but the game does not require such character in the first place. Lets not forget this is a game which does not require to invest much, if anything at all, in Constitution even for a "true" tank which implies it is possible to either out-heal damage taken or not take it in the first place. DW from my experience (7+4+14 Strength for Death Blow +1 Cunning and rest in Dexterity) gets flanked, gets stunned, gets knocked (with occasional frequency I would call it) but it does not prevent him to come up on the top DPS wise not in some theoretical sense, but in fact, in length of fights. 3 runes slots more are/can be huge plus. DW holds aggro better than any other melee in my opinion too because with attack, defense, attack speed, and damage and special bonuses the game, with its level scaling, cannot handle such beating, and presents situation worthy of a "true" tank rather rarely.
If one could get through the game "smoother" with identical set up except for a tank, where sword and shiled or 2H would feel "smoother", I would be surprised.
#17
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 02:12
tetracycloide
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You should trust me when I say that my 60+ strength warrior do more damage than my 60+ Dex Rogue in a straight up fight. The Warrior can almost wade through a bunch of normal foes using whirlwind attack etc...
One on one against each other my bet would be on the Rogue since he is a master Duelist and this is a nasty specialization which a warrior could never match.
In what way is it suprsing that your warrior built for damage would best your rogue built for defense? In terms of DPS on a flanked target a cunning rogue will best every class and build in the game short of a DPS mage. The amount of damage a warrior is going to gain using main hand weapons and from leveling pales in comparison to the amount of damage a rogue gains from massive armor penetration, auto-crits on every attack, and the bonus damage from all the assassin specialization talents. Plus the class only items of a rogue are far better for DPS than a warrior. The only advantage a warrior has in combat is that they have more talents for active abilities and more stamina to use them with, that's it.
#18
Posté 15 janvier 2010 - 09:24
-Frog-
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tetracycloide wrote...
The attribute modifier when dual wielding is much much smaller than 100% or even 85%. On a longsword it's going to average out at around 37.5% and on a dagger it's going to average out 15.9375% (per attribute for a total of around 31%). Any dagger, no matter what stats, will always increase the DPS of a main hand sword by ~ 17% just by virtue of the fact that it increases the swing speed of both weapons. Can the stats and damage of an offhand sword or axe keep up with an inherent 17% main hand damage mod hidden on every dagger? In most cases the answer is no.
Meaning the ideal is to use big, slow weapons for specials then switch to daggers.
But daggers require dex (or cun) and swords/axes are str based so your build will favor one or the other.
I'm not personally inclined to test this stuff myself but having tried both a cun rogue and a str warrior, I think they both have their moments. It feels great to wipe out large groups of enemies with a couple of whirlwinds but it's also very satifying to watch momentum daggers just fly along.
IMO given the choice - don't choose - take one of each
And don't complain about lack of mages - I'm finding a no mage run easier in many ways than when I had one - having lots of meleee dps just downs stuff in no time and isn't nearly so squishy. Still, haste and weapon buffs would be very nice for my DW warrior... it almost makes me want to bring one along anyway just to see those numbers fly.
#19
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 04:37
Sammy0721
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The DW decision is Role-playing at its best.
A DW Rouge (not really necessary with Momentum) is all about backstabbing speed and manually positioning your rouge for backstabbing. A DW Warrior with momentum and Dual-Strike is a boss killer and a Whirlwind/Punisher dream. My most powerful character is the DW Warrior with two swords because they can handle mobs with Whirlwind and armored foes with Dual-Strike. The cunning rouge with two daggers is the the highest DPS against a single foe, but you should take the build that fits your playing style. I feel the strength DW sword Warrior is better against mobs and reduces the need of crowd control mages (force field, crushing prison, paralyze, force field, cone of cold, mind blast).
A DW Rouge (not really necessary with Momentum) is all about backstabbing speed and manually positioning your rouge for backstabbing. A DW Warrior with momentum and Dual-Strike is a boss killer and a Whirlwind/Punisher dream. My most powerful character is the DW Warrior with two swords because they can handle mobs with Whirlwind and armored foes with Dual-Strike. The cunning rouge with two daggers is the the highest DPS against a single foe, but you should take the build that fits your playing style. I feel the strength DW sword Warrior is better against mobs and reduces the need of crowd control mages (force field, crushing prison, paralyze, force field, cone of cold, mind blast).
