207 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

RaenImrahl wrote...

I think people sometimes forget that DA:O was in development for something like five or six years, at least. It was announced in *2004*... and did not debut until late 2009, IIRC. My point is that multiplying the number of character types-- through gender, race, social status (noble vs. commoner), and class (mage, warrior, rogue) increases greatly the amount of narrative that needs to be developed and tied together. Perhaps not exponentially, but certainly arithmetically.

So what you're saying is Bioware should spend five or six years to make the next Dragon Age game amazing rather than just average? Good we agree!

I don't see why Bioware doesn't do what Bethesda does with their Elder Scrolls games. They spend five to six years making each of their games and each of the games that they release in that half decade period are worth the wait. People will be talking about Skyrim and Morrowind for decades after their release, just like people will talk about DA:O decades from now... the only thing is no ones going to be talking about DA2 years down the road and if they do it will only be that it was less than the original.

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 12 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[addiction21]

JimboGee wrote...

batlin wrote...

"Most people played male characters, so from now on all protagonists will be male."

"Most people chose straight romance options, so from now on only females will be romanceable."

"Most people chose good options over evil options, so from now on the player will only have the option to be good."



See where this logic eventually leads? At what point does catering to the masses become laziness?

Do yourself a favour buddy look up logic in the dictionary and then come back.

Who needs a dictionary when we can make up self-serving definitions on the spot?

[Dhoozy77]

I agree with their assessment the money they use to do dialogue for other races would be better spent on voicr acting for male and female protagonist.

[shubnabub]

They should do a kickstarter just for playable races.

[PaulSX]

RaenImrahl wrote...

I think people sometimes forget that DA:O was in development for something like five or six years, at least. It was announced in *2004*... and did not debut until late 2009.

I believe they only announced the frachise title Dragon Age back to 2004. Origins was not revealed until 2008.

[Wompoo]

I am torn on this, if this was a large budget game I would be covering all my bases (bigger budget great likelihood of increased sales... give the fans more of what they want get more in return). However after the mediocre sales of DA2 (and backlash of ME3 and SWTOR) I would think they will be more cautious about where they spend their money and how much money actually gets allocated to a title (time constraints may also play a part).

If the sales for DA3 (or DA:I whatever) are good, I guess future DA games may come with additional race stories.

As for playing human in DA:O, I played 1 dwarf to end and 1 elven character to the end of the game. I did not enjoy the experience and the closure for those two races, for methey were poor or lacking imo. Human on the other hand, offered far far more alternatives or more palatable endings. At no time did I play a human (many times) because they were, well, human, but because I felt the other races were poorly handled (and hey, there was the marriage mod, just had to play the game again for that as well , yet another ending pro human). So for my part of their data, it does not tell the whole story (a reason why metrics should only be used as a red flag not to determine a design template).

Modifié par Wompoo, 12 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[Butrz]

Thanks EA.

[Butrz]

Wompoo wrote...

I am torn on this, if this was a large budget game I would be covering all my bases (bigger budget great likelihood of increased sales... give the fans more of what they want get more in return). However after the mediocre sales of DA2 (and backlash of ME3 and SWTOR) I would think they will be more cautious about where they spend their money and how much money actually gets allocated to a title (time constraints may also play a part).

If the sales for DA3 (or DA:I whatever) are good, I guess future DA games may come with additional race stories.

As for playing human in DA:O, I played 1 dwarf to end and 1 elven character to the end of the game. I did not enjoy the experience and the closure for those two races, for methey were poor or lacking imo. Human on the other hand, offered far far more alternatives or more palatable endings. At no time did I play a human (many times) because they were, well, human, but because I felt the other races were poorly handled (and hey, there was the marriage mod, just had to play the game again for that as well , yet another ending pro human). So for my part of their data, it does not tell the whole story (a reason why metrics should only be used as a red flag not to determine a design template).

EA just wanted to ramp up as much money as fast as possible for ME3 and BattleField 3 (and some future realeses). EA also likes to ****** off their fan base alot because their fan base is still dumb enough to buy their future games anyway. So EA gains everything and the player losses in the end.

[Savber100]

Butrz wrote...

EA just wanted to ramp up as much money as fast as possible for ME3 and BattleField 3 (and some future realeses). EA also likes to ****** off their fan base alot because their fan base is still dumb enough to buy their future games anyway. So EA gains everything and the player losses in the end.

GTFO. 

I'm sorry but if critics of EA are all insulting a**holes to people that simply enjoy Bioware games then I would rather side with EA. 

The only player that loses are those that wastes hours telling other people that they're being stupid for playing a game that they themselves are not interested or don't play. 

Modifié par Savber100, 12 janvier 2013 - 07:01 .

[TheJediSaint]

Butrz wrote...

EA just wanted to ramp up as much money as fast as possible for ME3 and BattleField 3 (and some future realeses). EA also likes to ****** off their fan base alot because their fan base is still dumb enough to buy their future games anyway. So EA gains everything and the player losses in the end.

Translation:  People who buy games I don't like are stupid sheep.

[Rawgrim]

Could be that alot of people just uses whatever is set at default too. In DA:O thats male human noble, I belive.

[TEWR]

batlin wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Oh, please. Take a look at this. 

Yay, some future DLC will let us play as other races maybe.

Not what was said.

Not that I'm particularly excited about playing a human again -- Dwarf first and foremost! -- but that's not what was said or implied.

[Zanallen]

batlin wrote...

I think you and most everyone else in this thread is mistaking my meaning. Yes, I am aware that the idea to make the protagonist human-only is a financial one and that if corners were to be cut it's only logical to stick witht he race most players picked. But why is the same logic not made for other character creation options? Yes, fans have long expressed the need to play as both males and females, but have fans not praised the multiple playable races and all their origins in DA:O? Why is that the first thing to be tossed into the bin rather than gender or dialogue options?

My point is that it's awfully disconcerting that the corners that are being cut are staples in fantasy RPGs.

Racial choice is not a staple of fantasy RPGs. It isn't even a staple of Bioware RPGs. It has been featured in some of their games, but not all. Not even most.

[Urzon]

This threat looks like it needs a distracti.... SQUIRREL!!!

[Ponendus]

calypsnex wrote...

They should do a kickstarter just for playable races.

Good idea unless it's not a financial restriction but one based on time. If the team are already at their maximum and the publisher has handed down a deadline, it will mean hiring more people with the KS funding, training them, meetings, new writing for the characters etc etc... meanwhile the deadline remains.

Having said that, post release... I tend to think that a 'live team' funded by the fans that adds new content like this should be crowd funded. New thread please. 

[Rawgrim]

krul2k wrote...

my brother played nothing but xbox for years, had nothing but xbox, played nothing but Tiger Woods golf year in year out, decided to upgrade his game an bought Tiger Woods The Masters i think, to completley enjoy his game that he bought legit, he now has to buy a phone line, buy a internet connection, register his game to platy it which he bought legit, register with EA and DOWNLOAD courses to play in single player for a game he legit bought out the game store.

So for the average price of say £25 for a single player game my brother now need to pay out over £200 for online requirements he will never use or wants to play a game he loves

Very good point.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Enjoy your human character, folks! Looks like there is already a renig on "more choice". Lol.

(Dives into the water, being able to breathe underwater....50% resistant to disease, histkin rapid health regen once a game day. Has tail and scales.)

Off to my home in Markarth. Got some sweet loot i gotta put away! Toodles!

Modifié par sympathy4sarenreturns, 12 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[PsychoBlonde]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

batlin wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Oh, please. Take a look at this. 

Yay, some future DLC will let us play as other races maybe.

Not what was said.

Not that I'm particularly excited about playing a human again -- Dwarf first and foremost! -- but that's not what was said or implied.

They didn't even bring up the numbers until people started saying EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY A NON-HUMAN HUMANS ARE HORRIBLE.  Then Gaider came on and said "um, before you lose your mind claiming to know what EVERYONE wants, you might want to look at the actual numbers".

The decision to make the protagonist human is based on a lot of factors, and no amount of complaining about how EVERYONE WANTS OTHER RACES is going to change the fact that clearly, most of the customers don't really play the other races.  That's not to be said that having more options is bad, far from it--having the extra options can be good even for people who aren't drawn to play them.  But given their chosen direction with the series, they've decided to go with humans for now.

[Ninja Stan]

batlin wrote...

I think you and most everyone else in this thread is mistaking my meaning. Yes, I am aware that the idea to make the protagonist human-only is a financial one and that if corners were to be cut it's only logical to stick witht he race most players picked. But why is the same logic not made for other character creation options? Yes, fans have long expressed the need to play as both males and females, but have fans not praised the multiple playable races and all their origins in DA:O? Why is that the first thing to be tossed into the bin rather than gender or dialogue options?

My point is that it's awfully disconcerting that the corners that are being cut are staples in fantasy RPGs.

And my point is that no corners are being cut in a game that's presented with limited character creation options. By definition, the options that are given in the final game are the ones that BioWare decided to keep in the game. The fact that DA3 may have fewer character creation options than DAO is irrelevant, as they are two separate projects, each with its own scope.

By the way, for DAO, there were 3 or 4 other origin stories that BioWare spent a ridiculous amount of time on, but ultimately felt they either didn't work with the other origins, simply weren't interesting or exciting enough, or used assets that would only appear in that origin story. These were cut after much concepting and prototyping, not because BioWare was "cutting corners." But that amount of time, with better planning, could have been spent on making other aspects of the game better. (BioWare spent a lot of time developing the world and game of DAO, so some of this re-working and re-writing and re-scoping was accounted for and not "wasted".)

But why is the same logic not made for other character creation options? 

Because that's only logic in your head. You're not the one creating the game, so whatever you would do for the game isn't necessarily what BioWare would do, nor is it necessarily what's best for the project. BioWare has decided that this game is probably going to only have a human PC. They've also decided they want the game to have features X, Y, Z, and whatever else. This can totally be an arbitrary decision that could take into account some of the logic you're proposing, or it could be a decision to reduce scope and focus their attention on other features.

It's like you have a pitcher of water and a dozen glasses of different shapes and sizes, and you have to use all the water from the pitcher because everyone is thirsty. You can't possibly fill up all the glasses, so you have to make a decision. Do you fill up all the big glasses first, or the little glasses? Do you give them all an equal amount of water, or do you give some glasses more water than others? Or do you arbitrarily choose which glasses get a bunch of water and which ones get none? No matter what you choose, someone's going to feel like they didn't get enough water, or any watr at all, depending on what you chose.

The way you've presented your arguments, you're asking why BioWare doesn't just fill all the glasses, since everyone needs water and most people like drinking water? Remember that you've only got the one pitcher and it doesn't get refilled. Once you allocate all the water from the pitcher, you can't put more water into one glass without reducing the amount of water in another. It works the same way with time and manpower, or what BioWare like to call "zots," which represent units of work or man-hours or whatever unit of measurement you wish to use. Zots are limited, which is why it's so important to plan their allocation so precisely and why game companies can't always do everything you want them to do in a game. 

[Ninja Stan]

Rawgrim wrote...

Could be that alot of people just uses whatever is set at default too. In DA:O thats male human noble, I belive.

I have heard that that is also correct.

[Conduit0]

Rawgrim wrote...

krul2k wrote...

my brother played nothing but xbox for years, had nothing but xbox, played nothing but Tiger Woods golf year in year out, decided to upgrade his game an bought Tiger Woods The Masters i think, to completley enjoy his game that he bought legit, he now has to buy a phone line, buy a internet connection, register his game to platy it which he bought legit, register with EA and DOWNLOAD courses to play in single player for a game he legit bought out the game store.

So for the average price of say £25 for a single player game my brother now need to pay out over £200 for online requirements he will never use or wants to play a game he loves

Very good point.

Actually its a really terrible point, in fact its an out right lie. Assuming you're talking about Tiger Woods PGA Tour 13: The Masters, the game comes with 16 courses, which is a lot of content by golfing game standards, and does not in any way require an online connection to play.
So if his brother got a phone line and internet connection, its because he CHOSE TO DO SO, not because he was required to do it, if he downloaded DLC content for the game, its because he WANTED IT, not because he needed it.

I get that EA is a big corporation and as such is inherently evil and scary, but if you're going to make up stories about their evil money grubbing deeds, atleast make it something that can't be instantly refuted with a simple google search.
<_<

[99DP1982]

King Cousland wrote...

Oh, please. Take a look at this. 

Does it mean we will have them playable in the same manner like other races in ME3? MP anyone?

Modifié par 99DP1982, 12 janvier 2013 - 02:30 .

[Ozida]

Having different races playable is fun, but…
The problem I see with it is that many players may not be able to grasp the difference between different physiologies which can make story look cheap.

For example, if you pick a kunari-protagonist (which, I am sure, many would love to ), you should be really prepared to kill your in-game fellows due to some kunari’s law of order despite of you, as a player, liking it or not. Or if you are playing as an elf, you should be ready to avoid any peaceful solutions with humans due to an ugly history between two races… At least, if you make opposite decisions, you should become a “traitor” and a “freak” in the eyes of your own nation due to behaving “abnormally” for this specific race (and possible feel bad for yourself for the rest of the game for acting… just weird). Otherwise it will be like playing a character with human mind stuck in different body.

It does not only come to the way the world sees you, but also to the way you, as a character, see the world. And doing that properly can lead to two very bad consequences: a) auto-choices (you have no choices at all and you character acts as he/she should based on a “standard” racial behaviour), and lack of story depths (you can act like a “human” which does not bring any significant difference from playing a human character from start anyway). In first case we will get tons of feedback like: “Wow, MY character would never do that!” and “How come I can only pick this choice? I hate auto-dialogues”. And in second option we will get: “Game doesn’t carry my decisions AT ALL! They have lied about having consequences because I see no differences in my play-throughs!”.

DA:O did amazing job with having different races, don't get me wrong… but let’s be honest: they do not make games like DA:O anymore and we have to play what’s on market. I’d rather have a greatly developed human story than a combination of all races with no impact on story at all. IMHO.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

batlin wrote...

"Most people played male characters, so from now on all protagonists will be male."

"Most people chose straight romance options, so from now on only females will be romanceable."

"Most people chose good options over evil options, so from now on the player will only have the option to be good."



See where this logic eventually leads? At what point does catering to the masses become laziness?

Speaking of logic, this is a bit of slippery slope argument.  There is no evidence to indicate that what you are describing is going to happen with BioWare games in general or with Dragon Age games in particular.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the human-only protagonists of the last DA game and the upcoming one. I like being able to choose my race.