207 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Stan]

Faerunner wrote...

That's part of the problem for a lot of fans. They deliberately made a game with a single human protagonist in mind, didn't bother to try to extend any work to include other races, and then reach for the "most people only play humans" excuse when it clearly isn't the reason.  

The Dragon Age team may very well have planned for a single human protagonist because "most people only play humans."

Have BioWare fans not also expressed the need or enjoyment of playing other races?

"Most people only play humans." 

From what I heard, the same amount of people only played humans in Dragon Age are those who only played Male Shepard in Mass Effect, so why didn't they cut Female Shepard the way they cut races?

Because the Mass Effect team designed Mass Effect 2 and 3 to give players that choice.

Sure, BioWare fans have long expressed the need to be able to play either male or female, but for ME (and who knows how many other games) it was an 80% male to 20% female ratio. Clearly, the need to play another gender wasn't any more common than for races, so why devote time, effort, or resources into it when they could have put those into "more critical" features?

Because the team decided that allowing for both male and female protagonists was an important feature to have, and allocated their resources accordingly.

What makes gender essential but races unimportant when the numbers are the same?

Both male and female players play BioWare games, and many players enjoy making and playing characters of their own gender. The same can't be said of elven and dwarven players because, well, there aren't any.

Let me guess: Whatever BioWare decides is important, and when they plan ahead of time that they are already going to make a game with only a human protagonist in mind, every other race is going to get cut regardless of player desire or input.

Whoa. Stop right there. I take issue with this statement, because it implies that something that players "desire or input" must be implemented in the game. This is kind of impractical, and more than a little selfish. Player desire and input is important to BioWare, but it's still BioWare's game and BioWare is still the entity that does all the work on it. They can take in all the player desire and input in the world and consider it, but at the end of the say, they will make the decision of whether that desire and input works with the game concept they're working on. They're not callously flouting player desire and input because they've designed a game that happens to disagree with something some players are calling for.

Like, you can request a McPizza all you like, but McDonald's doesn't serve them anymore. It doesn't mean they find customer feedback to be irrelevant. It means that the company made a decision (in this case, after trying out the McPizza) to remove it from their menu. It was slow to cook, required extra equipment, and didn't fit in with the rest of their policies and standards. They might bring it back, like they bring back the McRib every so often (and I loves me some McRib), but for the moment, they don't have it. If and when they choose to bring it back, they'll bring it back, because what's on their menu is entirely the company's decision.

And then say afterwards, "Most people played as humans," when the same could be said for many other game features (characters that are female, gay/lesbian/bisexual, evil-aligned, or whatever) that should also get cut for the same reason but aren't. Because it's not the reason. And we know it.

As always, you can believe what you like, despite whatever evidence exists to the contrary. Just don't expect me to necessarily agree with you.

[ianvillan]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

That's part of the problem for a lot of fans. They deliberately made a game with a single human protagonist in mind, didn't bother to try to extend any work to include other races, and then reach for the "most people only play humans" excuse when it clearly isn't the reason.  

The Dragon Age team may very well have planned for a single human protagonist because "most people only play humans."

Have BioWare fans not also expressed the need or enjoyment of playing other races?

"Most people only play humans." 

I understand where you are coming from and if Bioware decides they want human only character they can, but the same things were said about DA2 having human was only because of the feedback data that Bioware recieved, but DA2 was released a year after Origins so the development must of started at the begining of that year period, so how much time  was there to gather the feedback that said 80% of the players played human.

Modifié par ianvillan, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[AshenSugar]

Here's my official take on this matter.

Not seen the game yet, not played it, know almost zilch about it. Therefore, to my mind, criticising development decisions doesn't make much sense until I have an actual game to relate those criticisms to, and something tanglibe with which to compare and contrast between the three titles in the series.

It may be that the story of DA3's human protagonist is so sharp, well-written and powerful that having additional origins will seem (in retrospect) to be irrelevant.... or at the other end of the spectrum, it may be a deal-breaker that ruins the whole experience.

Until I can answer the above with certainty, any grousing on my part is akin to writing a restaurant review for a restaurant I've not yet visited.

Modifié par AshenSugar, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:16 .

[Liamv2]

[spam post removed]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[Vilegrim]

xsdob wrote...

A characters race should not be more important than the character themselves. That just makes people seem like racist for focusing soley on what race a character is or isnt.

But in a blatantly racist world, the race makes a diffrence to who you are, a human noble and a dwarf noble are from tatally different worlds, they will have less in common with each other than they do with the peasants/dusters of their own homelands, the difference between both and Dalish is large as is the difference between Dalish and City elves.

[Marvin_Arnold]

Yes, I think I remember most players in DA2 played as humans indeed.

Seriously, I seem to be one of the minority who played his first human on playthrough No. 4 in DA:O...

Ninja Stan wrote...

A playable character isn't a frivolous decision to make, as he (or she) will be fully voiced,

I think there's a simple solution for that problem, which worked fine in DA:O and, for example, Skyrim...

"In DA:O, most people played a non-voiced character."

Vilegrim wrote...

But in a blatantly racist world, the race makes a diffrence to who you are...

And that would mean extra work, extra coding and game content, which can be easily cut by only allowing one race.

DA:O was interesting because of it's subtle social undercurrents, which Wardens from different origins could experience differently. Ah yes... subtlety... we've dismissed that claim and opted for a blatant and obnoxious civil war, effectively fought by humans, and (helplessly) witnessed by human PCs.

It's a human world now, get used to it. Elves are returning to Valinor, and dwarves are just dying out. (What else can they do, since the females already became extinct in DA2...)

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 13 janvier 2013 - 10:48 .

[coldsteelblue]

the basis for thr argument that made the title of this thread is nothing more than BS.
Of course most people played a Human, doesn't mean they're the most popular; all gamers are Human & a lot of them re-create themselves for their first playthrough, next, there are those that just want to get into the game asap & will just hit confirm on everythign, bang, default Human male & the rest, well if you wanted to platinum the game you'll play a Human even if it;s just the begning.
It would be the same as saying that in Mass Effect most pople played at man-shep to therefore we're taking femshep out of the game.
Of course, complaining isn't going to change the decision this time, we're stuck with it, this is simply a case of, we're telling you waht you like.
Makes me laugh in a non-comical way, the bods say that they listen to fan feedback & try to make them game everyone will want to play, yet they only listen to the stuff they like, how long have threads like this been going around?
Still, it may be interesing to watch the development of the game, but by being a forced Human, leaves me wondering if I'll play the game as they're my least favourite face.
Just my thoughts

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

To see what makes it a racial slur?

Except it isn't.  Like I said, people yelled it at my Nord.

You mean invent fan-fiction.

It's called roleplay dude.

It's been a very long time since someone said that the origin stories were too restrictive.

I'm not talking about origin stories specifically, but about the style of games being different, one allowing for great player freedom and the other not so much.

[Addai]

Ninja Stan wrote...
Both male and female players play BioWare games, and many players enjoy making and playing characters of their own gender. The same can't be said of elven and dwarven players because, well, there aren't any.

This is weak reasoning.  I don't care about the gender of a PC, but given the choice wouldn't play a human PC in the DA universe.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

coldsteelblue wrote...
Makes me laugh in a non-comical way, the bods say that they listen to fan feedback & try to make them game everyone will want to play, yet they only listen to the stuff they like, how long have threads like this been going around?

Yeap. They only listen to the stuff they like and everything else will be deemed as "toxic environment". But this forum is created soley for us, the forumers. It doesn't really matter what they thought is. They can chime in if they want to or they can lurk in the shadows taking notes or cloak themselves under different user names. I don't care.

In the end, all that matter is the game profitability. No retailers will want to take and market non-profitable products. 

Mark Darrah wrote... 
‘retailers have to be willing to take it. There isn’t any retail interest ATM.’

http://whatculture.c...ate-edition.php
https://twitter.com/...906475420090369

While by no means an awful game, Dragon Age II was heavily criticised upon release for simplifying the intricate gameplay and storyline that made Dragon Age: Origins so popular. The game sold poorly compared to expectations, and was quickly condemned to bargains bins at most major game retailers.

http://www.imdb.com/.../nm3679873/news

Perhaps this is the stuff they like to hear about their games.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
This is weak reasoning.  I don't care about the gender of a PC, but given the choice wouldn't play a human PC in the DA universe.

How is it weak? I don't care for fantasy races, but would be incredibly upset if they took away my ability to craft female PCs. Now we're even!

Except it isn't.  Like I said, people yelled it at my Nord.

So Ulfric has a shantytown for Dumner because he's progressive? Man, I should bake someone a cake for coming up with alienages! They're not actually offensive or oppressive at all.

It's called roleplay dude.

If the game supports your background as well as my fiction that the PC is a shapeshifting alien from the planet Zorblanax 19, preparing the world for invasion, then it's fan-fiction.

I'm not talking about origin stories specifically, but about the style
of games being different, one allowing for great player freedom and the
other not so much.

But you are saying that they restrict that  freedom by giving you a preset background.

[Mantaal]

BlueMagitek wrote...

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The races in Skyrim really don't matter at all though. >.>"

At least, not in comparison to previous Elder Scroll games.

They change entire facets of gameplay. I also get racial slurs from npcs. 

Not really.  It's just like choosing a background that would impact your skills differently.  It isn't the same as having quests cut off due to racial differences (Morrowind), gender (Morrowind again), skillset (Morrowind).  Racial slurs were also worse, if I recall correctly.  

Heck, compared to a game like Arcanum, where there were racial conversation options (and Mage/Tech and Male/Female options and so on) all the time, you're basically just choosing a slightly different avatar for your character that has a boost in skills here or there.  They even took out the permanent sign thing, an entire school of magic.... it wasn't great. 

The funny thing is. Even if the 10 Races in Skyrim had absolut no inpact to the Game. It would be still 10 times better then this Guy with the funny beard in DA2. 

[SilentK]

ianvillan wrote...

Bioware at Pax East did say that they want to have content that only certain players would see, they said they would like to do it by class and specialization you choose.



34:00

Thank you so much for linking that video 

Had not seen it before and it was great, really a lot of things that I was happy to hear. Having exclusive material for different specs and choices would be great. Just played through the Omega dlc for ME3 which had an exclusive engineer-interrupt that I could take. It was really cool. Best thing I heard today!

[Galbrant]

I'm fine with missing content beside its fresh to start over with a new race or class to explore some aspect of the game I didn't get to do the first time around.  It also gives a reason to try the classes skills and abilities. I don't like doing quests that don't fit the class. As much as I love Skyrim it doesn't make sense a Orc Warrior to be the freaking Archmage.

Modifié par Galbrant, 13 janvier 2013 - 07:06 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I played through every origin personally.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
This is weak reasoning.  I don't care about the gender of a PC, but given the choice wouldn't play a human PC in the DA universe.

How is it weak? I don't care for fantasy races, but would be incredibly upset if they took away my ability to craft female PCs. Now we're even!

Hence why it's weak reasoning, thanks.

So Ulfric has a shantytown for Dumner because he's progressive? Man, I should bake someone a cake for coming up with alienages! They're not actually offensive or oppressive at all.

Decree of Monument 

Not everything is fed to you in cutscenes.

If the game supports your background as well as my fiction that the PC is a shapeshifting alien from the planet Zorblanax 19, preparing the world for invasion, then it's fan-fiction.

I'm well aware that yours is the only valid approach to RPGs, no need to detail it.

But you are saying that they restrict that  freedom by giving you a preset background.

No, they restrict freedom because they make story-focused cinematic games that necessitate that they do so.  I'm saying you can't expect games with entirely different design goals to be like Skyrim.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Hence why it's weak reasoning, thanks.

Not following you.

Not everything is fed to you in cutscenes.

So the decree makes life better for the Dumner, somehow? They're not living in a shtetel? They don't have a racist berating them every day? They don't expressly tell you that they think the Nords are prejudiced?

Well, that's good there was a codex entry buried there. I know that when I read the enigma of Kirkwall, I realized that the constant stream of bloodmages was perfectly justified because codex entries make eveyrthing better.

I'm well aware that yours is the only valid approach to RPGs, no need to detail it.

I didn't say that - you were. The pejoratives about cutscenes, lines like "t's called roleplay dude", those are exactly statements about there being a right way to RP.

No, they restrict freedom because they make story-focused cinematic games that necessitate that they do so. 

Origin stories make story-focused cinematic games?

I'm saying you can't expect games with entirely different design goals to be like Skyrim.

Let's backtrack. You said:

There are a few acknowledgements of race in Skyrim, as many as in DAO.

I replied:

But DA:O had the origin story, and a tie to the racial and cultural
conflicts of Ferelden. I don't want to overstate what DA:O did, but
I think the origin story is a substantive difference.

You replied with:

You're expected to provide your own backstory.  That doesn't mean there
isn't any acknowledgement of race in Skyrim.  There are enough options
that you can also shape your own story, without being on rails.

And then I said:

I didn't say that. I pointed out a difference with DA:O, and why I prefered DA:O's approach.

I wasn't the one that expected the games to be the same, or even made the [i]claim that they were the same. You did.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Hence why it's weak reasoning, thanks.

Not following you.

"People want to play female characters" leads naturally to "people want to play non-human races."  He should stick to either "because that's what the devs want to make" or telemetry data.

So the decree makes life better for the Dumner, somehow? They're not living in a shtetel? They don't have a racist berating them every day? They don't expressly tell you that they think the Nords are prejudiced?

Maybe it would have been better if they had been turned away at the border rather than given land for free so that they could set up autonomous communities keeping their own culture and religion?  Or maybe they should have been enslaved like the Dunmer themselves used to do to other races?  It's such a terrible burden that they weren't given the best parts of a fortified city for their refuge.  For free.  From a race that's historically been their enemy.

Well, that's good there was a codex entry buried there. I know that when I read the enigma of Kirkwall, I realized that the constant stream of bloodmages was perfectly justified because codex entries make eveyrthing better.

It's a placard at a location just outside Windhelm.  Environmental storytelling.  Yes, you occasionally have to read to understand what's going on.

Origin stories make story-focused cinematic games?

Bioware does.

This is getting tedious.

I wasn't the one that expected the games to be the same, or even made the claim that they were the same. You did.

I said there as many acknowledgements of race in DAO as in Skyrim, as in NPCs commenting on it.  My original point to the poster who said Skyrim was going to leave DA in the dust is that they're two different styles of game with different design goals.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:37 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
"People want to play female characters" leads naturally to "people want to play non-human races."  He should stick to either "because that's what the devs want to make" or telemetry data.

I think you're not giving Stan enough credit. His argument was more sophisticated than that (which is that if they wanted to cut something, it would be a thing less players use, empirically).

Maybe it would have been better if they had been turned away at the border rather than given land for free so that they could set up autonomous communities keeping their own culture and religion?

Does that make the alienages better in DA? That the elves weren't enslaved for realz?

Or maybe they should have been enslaved like the Dunmer themselves used to do to other races?

How is this relevant.

It's such a terrible burden that they weren't given the best parts of a fortified city for their refuge.  For free.  From a race that's historically been their enemy.

That doesn't prevent them from being racists.

It's a placard at a location just outside Windhelm.  Environmental storytelling.  Yes, you occasionally have to read to understand what's going on.

I'm glad we agree! DA2 did a wonderful job of portraying refugees, because you had codex entries about how it sucked for them. It was environmental story-telling. There was no need to portray it in-game at all!

Bioware does.

This is getting tedious.

That's because you keep switching topics on me.

]I said there as many acknowledgements of race in DAO as in Skyrim, as in NPCs commenting on it. 

And I said that this is true, but DA:O also gave you a background as part of the world, and a playable prologue. Both features that - even if the amount of count winds up being the same - to me makes the race narrative much more compelling.

I'm not sure what we're debating here, honestly.

[LobselVith8]

The Dunmer migrated to the Snow Quarter (now called the Gray Quarter) before Ulfric was even born, after the eruption of Red Mountain. While the Gray Quarter has become somewhat dilapidated, Ulfric has been focusing his energies on emancipating Skyrim from the Empire. The Dunmer believe Ulfric is racist, but overhearing Ulfric's own view on the matter simply has him state that he's focused on the civil war.

Racism is apparent among all people - from the Nords to the Dunmer. Some Nords are racist, and some Dunmer are racist. Ulfric seems like he could care less, since he even appeals to non-Nord nations for alliances in his efforts to establish an independent Skyrim, and seems understanding even when one refuses his offer for an alliance.

The multitude of racial options was good in Skyrim, in my humble opinion, and you can get into a brawl with a racist Nord who takes issue with you being in Windhelm. For me, there's a certain appeal to a non-human protagonist in a fantasy setting, where you can see the world through a different cultural spectrum, that isn't available when you're playing as a human protagonist.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
"People want to play female characters" leads naturally to "people want to play non-human races."  He should stick to either "because that's what the devs want to make" or telemetry data.

I think you're not giving Stan enough credit. His argument was more sophisticated than that (which is that if they wanted to cut something, it would be a thing less players use, empirically).

And players also used the other races.  I really don't like playing humans in the DA universe.  They aren't very diversified in culture, they're the dominant culture, and they're just boring.  It's like you walk into a party and pick out the dullest, most khaki person to go up and talk to.  And then you're stuck with this useless twit for X number of hours, making snide comments that are supposed to be witty, and never shutting up.  That's Hawke in a nutshell.

How is this relevant.

Because these are real responses in other contexts to racial mixing in the ES universe.  When the Bosmer and Khajiit were warring, Cyrodiil blocked its borders to prevent refugees from fleeing north.  Dunmer did not consider beast races to be people, so they enslaved them.  The Argonian response to the Red Year was to go on a pillaging raid as revenge for this slavery.  When the snow elves sought refuge from war with their own kind, they were blinded and enslaved.  But the Nords, who have always fought with the Dunmer over territory, respoonded to their crisis by giving them land and refuge for free and not forcing them to submit to the jarls' rule.  Now, a century on, people don't remember this as an act of generosity and Dunmer rabble-rousers paint it as oppression rather than what it really is, the golden age of Nord-Dunmer relations.  If you had followed the woman you see getting harassed by Nords to her office on the docks, you'd hear her griping about how lazy the lizards are.  It's a subversion of "white man oppressing a different race" theme that you immediately leapt to on the basis of a cutscene and a few lines of dialogue.  Granted, you're not alone in doing so.  A lot of people not familiar with ES or with the storytelling style do so.

And I said that this is true, but DA:O also gave you a background as part of the world, and a playable prologue. Both features that - even if the amount of count winds up being the same - to me makes the race narrative much more compelling.

I wouldn't mind some race-specific quests in Elder Scrolls, but the origin story amounts to one quest.  I was referring to NPC acknowledgement of player race.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
And players also used the other races. 

They did. But not very much.

I really don't like playing humans in the DA universe.  They aren't very diversified in culture, they're the dominant culture, and they're just boring.

I find the same thing about the dwarves and elves. The only interesting race in DA:O is the qunari, and they've yet to be playable.

Because these are real responses in other contexts to racial mixing in the ES universe.  When the Bosmer and Khajiit were warring, Cyrodiil blocked its borders to prevent refugees from fleeing north.  Dunmer did not consider beast races to be people, so they enslaved them.  The Argonian response to the Red Year was to go on a pillaging raid as revenge for this slavery.  When the snow elves sought refuge from war with their own kind, they were blinded and enslaved.  But the Nords, who have always fought with the Dunmer over territory, respoonded to their crisis by giving them land and refuge for free and not forcing them to submit to the jarls' rule.  Now, a century on, people don't remember this as an act of generosity and Dunmer rabble-rousers paint it as oppression rather than what it really is, the golden age of Nord-Dunmer relations.

Supposing I actually agree with you and don't find it racist, all of this turns on my having extensive, extensive knowledge of the setting. You don't see a problem with this? 

This response is exactly like someone saying that if you played Legacy and read the Enigma of Kirkwall codexes it makes perfect sense for Kirkwall to be infested with blood mages left and right. Which isn't much of a justification at all because (a) it's not in-game and ( the game suggests something totally different from the codex.

More importantly, whatever happened a century ago doesn't matter very much, if the current attitudes of the Nords are (a) prejudicial and ( focused on racial lines.

If you had followed the woman you see getting harassed by Nords to her office on the docks, you'd hear her griping about how lazy the lizards are.

Making her racist too doesn't somehow relieve the harrassers of prejudice.

It's a subversion of "white man oppressing a different race" theme that you immediately leapt to on the basis of a cutscene and a few lines of dialogue. 

It's not subversive at all.

Granted, you're not alone in doing so.  A lot of people not familiar with ES or with the storytelling style do so.

The style being, read books and pretend what happens on screen ... is different, somehow?

I wouldn't mind some race-specific quests in Elder Scrolls, but the origin story amounts to one quest.

The origin stories are much more than one quest. They're quite massive. And they're a key part of the character, and your past. It's the reason for. I'm sorry, but you're greatly underselling their value here.

You're not just "an elf" in DA:O, with an elf-specific quest. You're Shanni's cousin, and Cyrion's son. You're Nesiara's bethroned, and Vaughn's executioner.

Your story is part of the world.

I was referring to NPC acknowledgement of player race.

But I think the origin story is an important part of that.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
For me, there's a certain appeal to a non-human protagonist in a fantasy setting, where you can see the world through a different cultural spectrum, that isn't available when you're playing as a human protagonist.

I can't understand this point. It makes absolutely no sense. There's nothing uniquely non-human about any fantasy culture. They're just human cultures with midgets or humans with pointy ears. Playing as - basically - a nordic viking is a unique cultural experience.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .

[addiction21]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I played through every origin personally.

I did too but it was not to play that race. To see the story attached to it was my reason. I chose the play a race because I felt like it not because of the origin stories.

By the way my first playthru was a city elf.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

I can't understand this point. It makes absolutely no sense.

There are differences between the Dunmer, Argonian, Orc, and the other people of Mundus. There are histories to their respective cultures. Bad blood between some of the people. Some players are able to enjoy playing as a certain protagonist from a particular race that isn't there when their only option is to play as a human protagonist. The developers of the Elder Scrolls have stated they want the players to feel welcome to have the freedom to create their own protagonist - which is why the games don't restrict you to a particular backstory or specific character.

For some people, the human protagonist is very bland and boring. I'm not interested in a human protagonist in a fantasy setting, it feels redunant to me. The concept of a Dunmer who could have seen the change of civilization over a century is much more appealing to me. It's simply my opinion and preference, of course.