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[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

Like it or not, amoral dicks get things done. Anora's not amoral but she's definitely got a ruthless streak, like her father. That is useful in a ruler if combined with brains and diplomatic tact, which she also has. She's not a perfect candidate, but that's because the writers wrote her well, to be human.

Alistair does become a lightning rod for one rebellion, but I don't consider that a serious threat. Anora's not wrong in her demand but it is definitely not her finest hour. Neither is her refusal to swear fealty to him if the Landsmeet decides against her.

The fact that one of them is wasted and so is Loghain is the biggest argument for having them marry. It's better for the country all around. There's not going to be an heir no matter who's on the throne, Bioware has made that pretty clear. Though full disclosure, my canon game is Alistair ruling alone with a Warden mistress as chancellor.

I agree that she isn't amoral. I would accuse her of being immoral and ultimately a traitorous opportunist, like her father. I don't believe anyone has concerns about Anora's utility as a ruler any more than anyone would have concerns about Loghain's utility as a general. I have no doubts she would be a suitable ruler who got the job done at the very least, barring some extreme circumstances. The issue is her unethical, selfish character. She puts herself first, and only would put Ferelden "first" if it was in fact synonymous with benefitting herself. I have no doubts that if she had to choose between her own self interests and that of Fereldan, she would choose her own in a heartbeat. Alistair on the otherhand is clearly willing to make self sacrifices in the name of his duty.

She might not be wrong in being consistent with her self-concerned logic to just have the single biggest threat to her rule executed, but she is definitely ethically wrong on this as he has done nothing to warrant such an execution. At the very worst she should have imprisoned him in a royal tower after forcing him to renounce his claim (and renouncing his claim was not as problematic for him as it was for Anora - further evidence that her priority is for herself, not Fereldan).

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 14 janvier 2013 - 05:31 .

[TEWR]

EpicTragedy wrote...

It would only have the potential to tear the nation apart in the future if Alistair both
1. Decided he wanted to press his claim, which he has clearly displayed no interest in, and 
2. Was somehow able to garner enough support, which would require Anora to be doing a pretty poor job

1) Well, he comes to regret his decision to leave Ferelden and brings up, in a drunken stupor, that he is the prince of Ferelden. And then he goes home with Teagan to "start over". Seems likely enough he may try and press the claim at Eamon's/Teagan's urging.
2) People are always going to be pissed off at a ruling monarch in politics. That's how these things go. Politics is a brutal, cutthroat game that ends with victors and losers. The losers will be pissed and plot ways to better themselves. If they're not dead, that is.

And Anora makes it clear in-game. There are people that value the Theirin bloodline over a person that's qualified for the job. They value the symbolism of the name as opposed to who can efficiently run the country -- and has for the last five years.

So no, it doesn't mean she's doing a poor job. It means that some people are a bit delusional. Throw in the tensions with Orlais and some people might just think it was an Orlesian plot to remove the Theirins from the throne. 

The same holds true, sort of, for a playthrough where Alistair is reigning monarch on his own. Anora's sympathizers will think that Alistair being the bastard heir of Maric was just a lie intended to depose Anora.

Really, the nation will truly only prosper with both of them at the helm. Both of them learn from each other I feel. Alistair can gain the support of the populus, while Anora can manipulate the Bannorn -- and Alistair will even take up governing if hardened.

Anora executing him simply isn't justified. It's a clearly selfish and morally corrupt decision given the presence of alternative solutions (the apple didn't fall far from the tree in this situation).

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it wants to equate the Mac Tir bloodline -- Anora -- with the Theirin one by saying "there were alternatives". But that's a falsehood.

In the eyes of the people of Ferelden, the Theirin bloodline is more important to a fair deal of them. So long as Alistair is alive and isn't sitting his ass on the throne, people are going to want him there. Worse still, people may be using him as a banner for their cause to further their own ambitions and not out of some noble -- if somewhat foolish -- prospect of the blood of Ferelden's kings being on the throne.

The same cannot be said of Anora, because while she is the daughter of a hero -- who was viewed with scorn after Ostagar by many -- her bloodline is not as important to them as Alistair's, because Alistair is descended from Calenhad.

You don't need Anora's brains, hardened Alistar will take his rule seriously and there are plenty of intelligent advisors at his disposal whose character is not questionable (Teagan, Eamon, Warden, etc) such that they aren't willing to sacrifice anything to preserve their own authority as Anora would.

The Warden's character is questionable, as he's a variable. He can do some pretty extreme things. In fact, the entire game could be played as a ruthless ****** with no sense of moral decency, so why he'd be better then Anora I don't know.

"Mages? Kill them all." -- justified though, under the circumstances. Still extreme, but justified.

"Elves? Slaughter them."

"Tevinter slavers? Give me your coin and the seal, keep the slaves."

"Shianni? You can have her Vaughan. Just give me my money."

"Redcliffe? Meh." *leaves the village*

You'll find that there are people who do not trust Eamon, viewing him as a shrewd, ambitious, and cunning person that can easily put up a front. And Teagan rarely concerns himself with matters of court -- his own codex says that he would really just go hunting with his nephew Cailan instead of attending to politics.

EpicTragedy wrote...

but she is definitely ethically wrong on this as he has done nothing to warrant such an execution.

Assuming she went through with it -- we never see it -- then sure. No one ever claimed being a politician was something that would give you perfect nights of sleep.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:09 .

[Addai]

How is Anora a traitor? She is self-centered, that's true. She's been brought up to believe that she's the only one who can rule Ferelden, just as her father thinks he's the only one who can defend it. It's a human failing, but none of her ruler outcomes bear out your pessimism. She's a good ruler.

[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

How is Anora a traitor? She is self-centered, that's true. She's been brought up to believe that she's the only one who can rule Ferelden, just as her father thinks he's the only one who can defend it. It's a human failing, but none of her ruler outcomes bear out your pessimism. She's a good ruler.

She is willing to both steal the throne from its true heir and then execute him out of fear of what he might, but probably won't do.

Loghain is a traitor as well for an even more obvious reason. 

Again, whether or not she would be a good ruler is of secondary concern to me, although I still think being able to put others before yourself is a very important trait for a leader which she is lacking.

She doesn't deserve to be a ruler given that she is willing to serve her own well being at the expense of others. Anyone who is willing to murder and innocent for their own personal benefit doesn't exact fit the bill of a great leader to me.

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

It would only have the potential to tear the nation apart in the future if Alistair both
1. Decided he wanted to press his claim, which he has clearly displayed no interest in, and 
2. Was somehow able to garner enough support, which would require Anora to be doing a pretty poor job

1) Well, he comes to regret his decision to leave Ferelden and brings up, in a drunken stupor, that he is the prince of Ferelden. And then he goes home with Teagan to "start over". Seems likely enough he may try and press the claim at Eamon's/Teagan's urging.
2) People are always going to be pissed off at a ruling monarch in politics. That's how these things go. Politics is a brutal, cutthroat game that ends with victors and losers. The losers will be pissed and plot ways to better themselves. If they're not dead, that is.

And Anora makes it clear in-game. There are people that value the Theirin bloodline over a person that's qualified for the job. They value the symbolism of the name as opposed to who can efficiently run the country -- and has for the last five years.

So no, it doesn't mean she's doing a poor job. It means that some people are a bit delusional. Throw in the tensions with Orlais and some people might just think it was an Orlesian plot to remove the Theirins from the throne. 

The same holds true, sort of, for a playthrough where Alistair is reigning monarch on his own. Anora's sympathizers will think that Alistair being the bastard heir of Maric was just a lie intended to depose Anora.

Really, the nation will truly only prosper with both of them at the helm. Both of them learn from each other I feel. Alistair can gain the support of the populus, while Anora can manipulate the Bannorn -- and Alistair will even take up governing if hardened.

I believe I conceded my second point was wrong in a previous post and explained the line of reasoning there. In regards to the first point, I still don't think Alistair would decide to claim the throne, let alone that Teagan or Eamon would urge him to do so.

Most importantly though, even if he did end up starting a civil war, Anora would still not be justified in executing him when she does because she couldn't have known he would. If Alistair makes it very clear, as she does in his position during an alternate ending, that he intends to fight for his right to claim the throne, she could be certain and would be justified in exercising her power to prevent a certain civil war by having him executed. Without that certainty, it is unethical and there is no way to justify it, especially when he proclaims he has no intention of staying in Fereldan.

There is a chance a stranger in a crowd could be a lunatic with a gun who wants to shoot you, and so you decide to shoot them first. This is what Anora does when she orders Alistar executed. Even if by some statistical miracle it turns out the stranger in the crowd you killed happened to be carrying firearms and having the intention of attacking you, you had no way of knowing that. Anora's motive is fear and her intention is to kill to prevent a possible war that may never happen and that she has no reason to think will happen. To ignore motive and intent and only look at consequences in determining whether an act is ethically justified or not is just naive. 

Anora executing him simply isn't justified. It's a clearly selfish and morally corrupt decision given the presence of alternative solutions (the apple didn't fall far from the tree in this situation).

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it wants to equate the Mac Tir bloodline -- Anora -- with the Theirin one by saying "there were alternatives". But that's a falsehood.

In the eyes of the people of Ferelden, the Theirin bloodline is more important to a fair deal of them. So long as Alistair is alive and isn't sitting his ass on the throne, people are going to want him there. Worse still, people may be using him as a banner for their cause to further their own ambitions and not out of some noble -- if somewhat foolish -- prospect of the blood of Ferelden's kings being on the throne.

The same cannot be said of Anora, because while she is the daughter of a hero -- who was viewed with scorn after Ostagar by many -- her bloodline is not as important to them as Alistair's, because Alistair is descended from Calenhad.

There are alternatives, the most obvious of which being to ask him to give up his right to the throne, swear fealty to Anora, and imprison him in a royal tower. Select people may want him on the throne, but without a more universal cause, such a movement will never gain enough popular support to succeed unless Anora starts acting like a tyrant or something, especially after a Landsmeet that literally just voted in favor of Anora and witnessed Alistair relinquish his claim to the throne. Anora isn't doing it for Fereldan, she is doing it for herself, killing and innocent for her own personal gain. That's why she sees no other alternative, she doesn't want another alternative. She wants a 100% guarantee that her right to the throne can never be contested, being unsatisfied with nothing else.

You don't need Anora's brains, hardened Alistar will take his rule seriously and there are plenty of intelligent advisors at his disposal whose character is not questionable (Teagan, Eamon, Warden, etc) such that they aren't willing to sacrifice anything to preserve their own authority as Anora would.

The Warden's character is questionable, as he's a variable. He can do some pretty extreme things. In fact, the entire game could be played as a ruthless ****** with no sense of moral decency, so why he'd be better then Anora I don't know.

"Mages? Kill them all." -- justified though, under the circumstances. Still extreme, but justified.

"Elves? Slaughter them."

"Tevinter slavers? Give me your coin and the seal, keep the slaves."

"Shianni? You can have her Vaughan. Just give me my money."

"Redcliffe? Meh." *leaves the village*

You'll find that there are people who do not trust Eamon, viewing him as a shrewd, ambitious, and cunning person that can easily put up a front. And Teagan rarely concerns himself with matters of court -- his own codex says that he would really just go hunting with his nephew Cailan instead of attending to politics.

Fair enough on the Warden and Teagan.

Regardless of whether someone trusts Eamon or not though, you would be hard pressed to say he wouldn't make an intelligent advisor for Alistair. Those are just named characters as well. It would be rather silly to assume that none of Alistair's courtly advisors would be intelligent. Especially in speaking of a hardened Alistair, there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be just as good a ruler as Anora, if not better due to his willingness to sacrifice himself for the greater good of Fereldan. 

EpicTragedy wrote...

but she is definitely ethically wrong on this as he has done nothing to warrant such an execution.

Assuming she went through with it -- we never see it -- then sure. No one ever claimed being a politician was something that would give you perfect nights of sleep.

Sure, we don't know if she went through with it, arguing that all of this ethical criticism doesn't stick because she may not have actually gone through with it isn't the most solid of positions though and completely ignores all other concerns. It's a side issue irrelevant to any other point that we can't really debate unless we get further evidence.

The problem is, Anora displays no sense of regret or remorse at having to execute Alistair and won't lose a second of sleep over it. She thinks it's the necessary and right decision to do (because it benefits her reign and. herself). 

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:08 .

[Addai]

EpicTragedy wrote...
She is willing to both steal the throne from its true heir and then execute him out of fear of what he might, but probably won't do.

There is no "true heir."  Maric never put Alistair into the succession, and in any case Ferelden's royal family is only in that spot because of nostalgic tradition.  The Landsmeet decides on the ruler and that's really the only thing enshrined in law, as far as I can see.

Again, whether or not she would be a good ruler is of secondary concern to me, although I still think being able to put others before yourself is a very important trait for a leader which she is lacking.

She doesn't deserve to be a ruler given that she is willing to serve her own well being at the expense of others. Anyone who is willing to murder and innocent for their own personal benefit doesn't exact fit the bill of a great leader to me.

Alistair is selfish, too, when it comes to it.  He abandons Ferelden with a Blight coming on if he doesn't get his way about Loghain.  Anora's selfishness is not the same thing as being self-serving.  She truly believes that she's the most capable at ruling Ferelden and doesn't want to see it in untried hands.  As for murdering an innocent, someone claiming a right to the throne is no longer an "innocent."  She calls for Alistair's execution because he represents a threat to her throne and hence to the stability of the nation.  You can pursue power and yet do so with the good of your nation in mind.  In fact it's almost impossible to pursue the latter without the former.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Before this goes any farther, I wanted ask whether you're aware the epilogue states there was a rebellion in Alistair's name in the event of the Drunkistair ending? And that it's unclear he was involved? (I tend to think he was, since Teagan, a known symapthizer, grabs Alistair from Kirkwall and that I have trouble believing that's coincidence. If he's not involved, of course, that just proves our point even further. If he doesn't even have to press his claim to be a threat...)

Nor does the fact that he can gather support mean she's doing a bad job. It means there's discontent, which is evidence but not proof of your claim. It's pretty weak evidence, too, since making right decisions for the country as a whole can still injure certain interests. I don't remember if it says how the discontent came about, and I didn't know to make backup saves to recheck my epilogue during my first playthrough, so if someone else wants to say something about that slide, please do.

Yes, someone mentioned that earlier in the thread. This is the specifics:
"A short rebellion borrowing his name occurs a year later but no evidence is found linking it to him."

I wanted to be sure, I didn't remember you replying to the last mention of it.

Fair enough regarding the motives for such a rebellion possibly just being a discontented party. However, if she truly is doing her job well, I find it extremely hard to believe that such a rebellion will ever garner enough popular support to be a threat to her. It by no means tears the country apart as suggested.

Already covered by TEWR.

Further, Alistar is definitely not involved with the rebellion (or at least not in the sense you would like to think he is). The previous epilogue above continues:
"A haggard drunk somewhat matching Alistair's description eventually surfaces at a tavern claiming to have once been a Grey Warden and a prince."

It's not so much "would like to think" as "saw a coincidence, and didn't remember any reason it couldn't be more."

The "small" rebellion you speak of then takes place prior to Alistair leaving Kirkwall.

Anora executing Alistar is just evil, there is no way around it. She doesn't even have a claim on the throne. She is just trying to look out for herself and claims to be doing so in the name of Fereldan (just like her Father).

She has a claim to the throne by virtue of being on it at the moment, and having proved herself competent. That's basically nothing legally, but the competent bit ought to mean something.

[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...
She is willing to both steal the throne from its true heir and then execute him out of fear of what he might, but probably won't do.

There is no "true heir."  Maric never put Alistair into the succession, and in any case Ferelden's royal family is only in that spot because of nostalgic tradition.  The Landsmeet decides on the ruler and that's really the only thing enshrined in law, as far as I can see.

Alistair is moreso the "true heir" than Anora because of his blood, which is viewed as more legitimate than marriage. I can concede your point about the royal family and the Landsmeet law though, and "technically" the royal family isn't anything but nostalgic tradition, but that is less so an in-game concern and more-so an external critique of their medieval politics. The Landsmeet ultimately does decide though in Ferelden so I was probably wrong to label her a direct traitor like her father, even if I still think it is a cruel and selfish decision to execute Alistair the way she does.

Again, whether or not she would be a good ruler is of secondary concern to me, although I still think being able to put others before yourself is a very important trait for a leader which she is lacking.

She doesn't deserve to be a ruler given that she is willing to serve her own well being at the expense of others. Anyone who is willing to murder and innocent for their own personal benefit doesn't exact fit the bill of a great leader to me.

Alistair is selfish, too, when it comes to it.  He abandons Ferelden with a Blight coming on if he doesn't get his way about Loghain.  Anora's selfishness is not the same thing as being self-serving.  She truly believes that she's the most capable at ruling Ferelden and doesn't want to see it in untried hands.  As for murdering an innocent, someone claiming a right to the throne is no longer an "innocent."  She calls for Alistair's execution because he represents a threat to her throne and hence to the stability of the nation.  You can pursue power and yet do so with the good of your nation in mind.  In fact it's almost impossible to pursue the latter without the former.

While Alistair's selfishness leads to an omission of duty which doesn't necessarily infringe on others, Anora's is an active wrongdoing that directly infringes on the well-being of others, but I see your point about Alistair not being completely innocent and it is fair. I hadn't really considered how Alistair basically becomes a drunken deserter. I still think infringing on another and comitting a wrong is more worthy of criticism than failing to do a good though.

They are one and the same though. We never see an instance of Anora making a sacrifice for Ferelden. Ferelden's interests ever so conveniently align with her own. In fact, the only time we get a glimpse of where to two divide is when the Landsmeet chooses Alistair and she still refuses to abandon her and her children's claim to the throne and pledge loyalty to the chosen ruler. In this one clear division however, she proves to choose her own interest over Ferelden's. She herself knows that Alistair as ruler is better for Ferelden than a civil war, especially during a blight, and that failing to pledge her support to him is directly opposing the unity of Ferelden when it needs unity more than anything else. Therefore, when you say she calls for the execution of Alistair, the preservation of the "stability of the nation" is much more of a pretext with the main reason being he is a threat to her throne.

I wouldn't say Anora pursues power for the good of the nation. I would say she pursues it because she has been spoiled by having it and no one wants to give up their power. The whole "good of the nation bit" collapses when you see her readily willing to oppose the good of the nation for her own pursuit of power. This just goes to show how good of a politician she can be in deceiving others. It is very Machiavellian, but not necessarily what is best for her country, just best for herself.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:57 .

[Addai]

Anora's whole life is a life of sacrifice for Ferelden. She was raised with the queenship hanging over her head, which is a heavy burden for anyone. Loghain's dialogue about her hints at how lonely this was, even though she took to it well and probably wouldn't have wanted it any other way. She accepted an arranged marriage with someone who was cheating on her, and will do so again for the sake of the throne. Whether you see that as selfish grasping for power or self-sacrifice is no doubt up to the observer.

If married to a hardened Alistair, she instructs him in the arts of ruling. Why would she do this if she only cares about her own power?

Doesn't the Warden have selfish reasons for wanting to do whatever he wants to do? How would anyone know the difference?

[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

Anora's whole life is a life of sacrifice for Ferelden. She was raised with the queenship hanging over her head, which is a heavy burden for anyone. Loghain's dialogue about her hints at how lonely this was, even though she took to it well and probably wouldn't have wanted it any other way. She accepted an arranged marriage with someone who was cheating on her, and will do so again for the sake of the throne. Whether you see that as selfish grasping for power or self-sacrifice is no doubt up to the observer.

If married to a hardened Alistair, she instructs him in the arts of ruling. Why would she do this if she only cares about her own power?

Doesn't the Warden have selfish reasons for wanting to do whatever he wants to do? How would anyone know the difference?

When do we hear that dialogue about her from Loghain? And I wasn't aware she willingly wanted to share power with a hardened Alistar, I was under the impression he went about learning himself.

While I still think it's completely unjustified what she does in the epilogue where she executes Alistair, it is perhaps unfair to judge her character in all epilogues for her particular actions in that specific outcome. If the upper body of your paragraph is true about her (which I either completely forgot about or somehow missed), then I can be a lot more sympathetic to her position.

On reading her background of the wiki, nothing of the sort is mentioned. It reads:

Anora was born a commoner, at a time shortly after her father had driven foreigners out of Ferelden. Her father was rewarded with his elevation to Teyrn, so in truth Anora grew up knowing privilege—it was her father that kept her very much aware of her common roots. Her mother died when she was young and thus it is her father that raised her. This made her a bit tomboyish in some ways, but at the same time she inherited her father's skills and mannerisms. According to her father, as a child she acted as if she were the undisputed monarch of the whole world. She never joined the local children in play. Instead she read a lot, followed her mother around like a shadow about the gardens, and practiced archery and swordplay. Later she was moved to the palace where she became friends with her betrothed, the young Prince Cailan, while they were still both children. He was slightly younger than she was, and she would lead him around like a puppy on a leash, deep in adventures together. They once fought an army of ogresin the wine cellar together, or at least that was their explanation for all the broken bottles.Eventually they were married, and while she is happy enough, it has always been a marriage of convenience in her eyes. She has grown fond of Cailan over time; nevertheless she considers her husband to be something of a fool (albeit a charming, lovable one). She is shrewdly intelligent and capable, and has been more or less running the nation in her husband's name for the past five years (while wishing she were ruling in her own name). Cailan is an easygoing man who cares little for economics or politics, and is thus more than happy to leave much of the business of governing to his wife.


Nothing here suggests what you claim in the first paragraph. If anything, it goes to further support my current understanding of her as self-interested and the perfect example of a Machiavellian politician who wants to look out for themselves above all else, including the good of the country. Normally, such a ruler would be better than most because the two concerns will usually align, and such prudence often is to the benefit of the country. But not when you could actually have a virtuous King like Alistair instead who always would act in the best interests of the country. I think true virtue is much rarer than prudence, even if both are valuable gifts.

I can say now that at the very least, I'm much more open to a joint rule between Alistair and Anora than I previously was before.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:09 .

[Addai]

It's in Loghain's dialogue about her, after you recruit him. You can ask about her childhood and he'll say that she never played with other children because she was set apart from them and children can be cruel. He does say that she believed she was the undisputed monarch of the world.  Here's a video of the conversation.

The summation of her attitude toward Cailan is accurate enough. I don't see how that makes Anora selfish or ruthless. They were engaged since infancy and he *is* a fool.

The epilogue for Alistair hardened and ruling with Anora says that she is surprised that he is so willing to learn statecraft from her.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:16 .

[EpicTragedy]

I guess it doesn't make her selfish or ruthless, just ambitious, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It certaintly doesn't paint her life as being one big difficult, lonely sacrifice though and there is no evidence here that Cailan was cheating on her. I'm aware of his plans with the Orlesian (Queen or Princess?) but that is over a decade later. She seems like she willingly chose this life out of ambition. Whether that ambition was driven by self interest or the interest of Ferelden is an entirely different debate, even if she would attempt to paint the two as one and the same.

Nonetheless, I'm actually a lot less sure that I want Alistair to rule alone now than I was before and sharing rule with Anora does seem like a viable option, but I still don't know if it is my preferred option.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 14 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[Addai]

There isn't any definitive proof that Cailan was cheating on her. Anora talks about it if you approach her about marrying Alistair and the PC is in a relationship with Alistair. She asks what your intentions and that she hopes you'll be discreet and not embarrass her.  In that context she'll mention that Cailan had his women and that she always knew.  It's possible she is angling for sympathy but she is not saying it disparagingly against Cailan so much as to say "if you're going to do it, please at least do it the way he did." She will also say that their marriage started as a political one and grew to be more- whatever that means.

I would definitely say that she chose the life, but it was also chosen for her before she was born, so who's to say whether the chicken came first or the egg? Blooming where you're planted is not so terrible a thing.

I can't say that I really like her myself- I hate politicians as a rule- but I do have respect for her and think she makes a good ruler.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:41 .

[Last Darkness]

 Hardend Alistair Married to Anora and Loghain conscripted to Wardens is my favorite scenario and whats best for Ferelden, The Grey Wardens and the Blight.

Of course Loghain is a much differant character after you read the Novels and have some backstory instead of "He killed the King and Duncan" especialy considering Cailan could be his bastard son....

[Jedimaster88]

Last Darkness wrote...

 Hardend Alistair Married to Anora and Loghain conscripted to Wardens is my favorite scenario and whats best for Ferelden, The Grey Wardens and the Blight.

Of course Loghain is a much differant character after you read the Novels and have some backstory instead of "He killed the King and Duncan" especialy considering Cailan could be his bastard son....

I tried sparing Loghain once and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I had no desire to finish the game that way. I wont do it again anytime soon.

I have read the novels and they didnt change my opinion of Loghain much. Im propably one of the few people who actually started to hate him even more after reading them.

As for the Cailan thing. I assume you are referring to that deep roads thing.  Loghain has dark hair and Rowan brown if I remember right. Could their child even have blonde hair? Im not entirely sure since its been many years when I last studied such things in school biology lessons.

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 16 janvier 2013 - 02:34 .

[Addai]

Since Cailan looks just like Maric, I highly doubt he is Loghain's son. There are enough intrigues around Rowan, Maric and Loghain without that. He did help raise him, though.

[Last Darkness]

 greywardens.com/2012/06/loghain-mac-tir-on-trial/
Might be worth a look for some as it has some very good information most players never ask themselves.

Im rather Grimly Pragmatic in my views and how I play games (My one real complaint about Mass Effect 2 was you were forced to choose a alignment side) I view the Grey Wardens differantly then most because they are not white knights in shining armor out to help everyone with every problem them have. The Altuistic views really dissappoint me especialy with what you see of the Grey Wardens presented in game running counter to such views. 

Stopping the Blight by Any means Nessasary = The End Justifies the Means. You simply try to minimise the negatives.

Why I view as a True Grey Warden, Bhlen King and the Anvil kept to create Golems. Circle saved from the Templars, Connor and Isolde saved by Circle, Werewolves supported and used against the Blight(And I play Dalish even...). Leliana Hardened, Alistair Hardened, Alistaor Married to Anora and Loghain conscripted into Wardens (Which is a Death sentence on its own but at least he can make some amends for what hes done). I belive this is the best stance to take to counter the Blight as a hardcore Grey Warden. Other options are malleable.

[EpicTragedy]

For some reason, someone here convinced me that Anora only turned against the warden if they didn't support her claim to the throne, which I could understand. I haven't played it in so long I merely believed this, but wrongly so. I just finished the Landsmeet quest again.

Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne. Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden. There is no excuse for what she did, it was outright selfish betrayal (and actually fairly incompetent as well). Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued her. Not only is she a selfish traitor, but Anora is a coward too. I don't care how cunning you might be, a cowardly, selfish traitor is not the ideal choice for a ruler.

I was actually considering putting her on the throne with Alistair without question this playthrough, but these actions and the dialogue with her that follows in Eamon's estate have just reminded  me of why I didn't put her on the throne in my first playthrough. It would be nice if she had a good virtuous character to back up her administrative talents because I would like to have her share the throne with Alistair, but she doesn't. Hardened Alistair is fully capable of ruling himself.

She plays the game well, but unfortunately she only plays it for herself, the definition of "corrupt politician". I would never put her as the sole ruler. Even with Alistair, it is extremely hard to justify marrying them so she can share in the rule.

The only way I can see it working is if Alistair is king and she plays as his wingman/advisor in the relationship. She makes it perfectly clear when the marriage is suggested that Alistair would stay out of politics and leave her to rule alone though. I'll grant her this, it really is a "compromise" to allow her to stay on the throne by marrying Alistair. The only reasons I think I'm going to go with the marriage between them is because of the cards she has in her hand already. Ferelden benefits from the stability of keeping the same queen and Alistair benefits from her experience to become a better ruler. I still don't like it, but I can live with it and see the reasoning behind it over having Alistair rule unmarried. It could cause some issues down though line though if it turns out she really is barren. 

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:15 .

[TEWR]

Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne.

She explicitly tells you that Howe's men would just return her to Howe if caught -- which solves itself -- and if Loghain's men find her, she can't be certain a similar fate doesn't await her where she's in her father's custody and unable to do anything at best.

At worst, she feared Loghain would kill her because she wasn't certain whether he had denied that request by Howe -- all she knew was that Howe brought it up to her father and talked about it loudly before she was kept under lock and key and magic.

She'll only betray you if the Warden is dumb enough to say to Cauthrien -- Loghain's second-in-command -- that you're rescuing her, because they don't recognize her in that guard uniform until the Warden goes "Hey! This is Anora guys!"

In essence, you betrayed her first by revealing who she was to a man she's trying to oppose and wasn't certain if he had descended into such a state where he'd kill his own daughter.

Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden.

Because you did. You betrayed her first. She didn't want her father's people to know she was escaping, much less going over to the Warden. Because she was afraid they'd take her back to her father and she'd be killed.

Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued he

You need to replay the quest again, because you're missing a lot of crucial information that Anora and Erlina will tell you about why Anora wants you to keep her identity hidden from the people under Loghain's command, the man that she believes -- based on the information she has at hand -- might kill his own daughter because Howe brought it up to him and has been manipulating him for some time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:46 .

[ejoslin]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And if you harden him, recruit Loghain, and have Loghain do the Ulitmate Sacrifice, Alistair's not even mad anymore by the time of the Coronation.

According to the toolset he is.  And he seems pretty ticked to me.  He just doesn't like the warden any more.  That doesn't mean he won't be as civil as possible, though.

[MisterJB]

EpicTragedy wrote...
Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne. Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden. There is no excuse for what she did, it was outright selfish betrayal (and actually fairly incompetent as well). Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued her. Not only is she a selfish traitor, but Anora is a coward too. I don't care how cunning you might be, a cowardly, selfish traitor is not the ideal choice for a ruler.

Let me get this straight. You want Anora to allign herself with you against her father. But when you meet Ser Cauthrien; Loghain's lieutenant, your enemy and now Anora's who clearly has a small army with her; you basically tell her that Anora is with you.
How did that seem like a good idea?

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:46 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

ejoslin wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And if you harden him, recruit Loghain, and have Loghain do the Ulitmate Sacrifice, Alistair's not even mad anymore by the time of the Coronation.

According to the toolset he is.  And he seems pretty ticked to me.  He just doesn't like the warden any more.  That doesn't mean he won't be as civil as possible, though.

Already retracted, thank you.

[Addai]

EpicTragedy wrote...

For some reason, someone here convinced me that Anora only turned against the warden if they didn't support her claim to the throne, which I could understand. I haven't played it in so long I merely believed this, but wrongly so. I just finished the Landsmeet quest again.

She will also turn on you if make threatening statements towards Loghain when you talk to her at Eamon's estate.

Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne. Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden.

I agree that this is annoying.  We know from Loghain's dialogue that her life was never threatened and probably that she knew it wasn't.  He seems to think she was playing a game here and liked the idea of being rescued.  I won't defend her actions here, therefore, though I'll say that not everyone sees this happen if you voluntarily choose to protect her identity or if you surrender to Cauthrien.  It's all very fishy and there are people who believe that the entire thing was a setup- I doubt that, but it's possible.

One thing- she does say "Eamon, I think I've done a terrible thing."  This could be Anora admitting that she was using the Warden as a pawn and belatedly realizes she could have had a real ally.  Politics is a deadly game, and by involving him/herself in it, the Warden has agreed to play.  The Warden makes choices about life and death for other people all the time, so is it so egregious when you're in the same spot for once?  Just something to think about.

There is no excuse for what she did, it was outright selfish betrayal (and actually fairly incompetent as well). Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued her. Not only is she a selfish traitor, but Anora is a coward too. I don't care how cunning you might be, a cowardly, selfish traitor is not the ideal choice for a ruler.

Well again, she's not a traitor, and I would argue that someone conniving and ruthless is a better choice for ruler if they are also competent.  Anora is not as brilliant as she thinks she is, but she is certainly more competent than Alistair for the role of ruler.  Without a Warden chancellor, I wouldn't make him sole king, since I don't trust Eamon.

The only way I can see it working is if Alistair is king and she plays as his wingman/advisor in the relationship.

Alistair is the wingman.  The epilogues bear this out.  If you don't want Anora's influence on the kingdom, you'd better not put her there.

She makes it perfectly clear when the marriage is suggested that Alistair would stay out of politics and leave her to rule alone though. I'll grant her this, it really is a "compromise" to allow her to stay on the throne by marrying Alistair. The only reasons I think I'm going to go with the marriage between them is because of the cards she has in her hand already. Ferelden benefits from the stability of keeping the same queen and Alistair benefits from her experience to become a better ruler. I still don't like it, but I can live with it and see the reasoning behind it over having Alistair rule unmarried. It could cause some issues down though line though if it turns out she really is barren. 

True, in many ways it is a better outcome for the country, but no arrangement is perfect or guaranteed to work.  You always roll the dice.  I don't think there is going to be a blood heir anyway, the devs have pretty much said there wouldn't be in any outcome.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:59 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne.

She explicitly tells you that Howe's men would just return her to Howe if caught -- which solves itself -- and if Loghain's men find her, she can't be certain a similar fate doesn't await her where she's in her father's custody and unable to do anything at best.

At worst, she feared Loghain would kill her because she wasn't certain whether he had denied that request by Howe -- all she knew was that Howe brought it up to her father and talked about it loudly before she was kept under lock and key and magic.

She'll only betray you if the Warden is dumb enough to say to Cauthrien -- Loghain's second-in-command -- that you're rescuing her, because they don't recognize her in that guard uniform until the Warden goes "Hey! This is Anora guys!"

In essence, you betrayed her first by revealing who she was to a man she's trying to oppose and wasn't certain if he had descended into such a state where he'd kill his own daughter.

Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden.

Because you did. You betrayed her first. She didn't want her father's people to know she was escaping, much less going over to the Warden. Because she was afraid they'd take her back to her father and she'd be killed.

Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued he

You need to replay the quest again, because you're missing a lot of crucial information that Anora and Erlina will tell you about why Anora wants you to keep her identity hidden from the people under Loghain's command, the man that she believes -- based on the information she has at hand -- might kill his own daughter because Howe brought it up to him and has been manipulating him for some time.

Those aren't Howe's men, they're Loghain's men. She literally cries for help because the "warden kidnapped me". Loghain's lieutenant obviously had no idea she was kidnapped by Howe. This is her being paranoid, and really just incompetent. 

It isn't dumb, Cauthrien had no idea that she was kidnapped. Had she acknowledged the warden had rescued her and needed to go see Eamon immediately, Cauthrien would have let them pass. Instead, she stupidly cries for Cauthrien to arrest the warden who kidnapped her, leading to the deaths of many people who didn't have to die. It was stupid and paranoid (which, by the way, makes no sense. If Cauthrien is serving Loghain and intentionally wants to keep her imprisoned and bring her to Loghain, there is no reason she would be surprised to hear the warden say they are rescuing her, or even obey Anora when she commands that the Warden be arrested). The warden was just using a tool of power to avoid further confrontation, Anora was just too paranoid and stupid to realize the power she had over that situation.

You didn't betray her at all, as explained before, you're avoiding further confrontation when it isn't necessary. Cauthrien wouldn't take Anora into custody if she admitted the warden saved her. Again, that is just Anora being incompetent. 

I'm not missing any information, I listened to all of those reasons and they are absurd. Loghain wouldn't kill his only heir and the queen of Ferelden. It's ironic she accuses him of having gone mad with paranoia when she is literally doing the same thing in this situation. It's even more crazy because Cauthrien obviously has no idea and Anora could easily tell by her reaction that she was shocked when the warden first says they are rescuing the queen. 

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 22 janvier 2013 - 09:52 .

[EpicTragedy]

MisterJB wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...
Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne. Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden. There is no excuse for what she did, it was outright selfish betrayal (and actually fairly incompetent as well). Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued her. Not only is she a selfish traitor, but Anora is a coward too. I don't care how cunning you might be, a cowardly, selfish traitor is not the ideal choice for a ruler.

Let me get this straight. You want Anora to allign herself with you against her father. But when you meet Ser Cauthrien; Loghain's lieutenant, your enemy and now Anora's who clearly has a small army with her; you basically tell her that Anora is with you.
How did that seem like a good idea?

This has nothing to do with Anora aligning with you. This happens before any of those conversations happen. At this point, you're just rescuing Anora from a traitorous Arl who kidnapped her. Cauthrien obviously wasn't in on this treachery and would have cooperated if Anora hadn't been so paranoid. You don't tell her "Anora is with me". You tell her "I rescued Anora from this ****ing traitor who kidnapped the queen, the daughter of your General". 

Get it now?