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[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

For some reason, someone here convinced me that Anora only turned against the warden if they didn't support her claim to the throne, which I could understand. I haven't played it in so long I merely believed this, but wrongly so. I just finished the Landsmeet quest again.

She will also turn on you if make threatening statements towards Loghain when you talk to her at Eamon's estate.

Anora betrays the warden when leaving Arl Howe's estate even before the discussion of who the warden will support for the throne. Later, once safely in Eamon's house, she even has the nerve to assert that it was the warden's fault for "exposing her" and shows no remorse for betraying the warden.

I agree that this is annoying.  We know from Loghain's dialogue that her life was never threatened and probably that she knew it wasn't.  He seems to think she was playing a game here and liked the idea of being rescued.  I won't defend her actions here, therefore, though I'll say that not everyone sees this happen if you voluntarily choose to protect her identity or if you surrender to Cauthrien.  It's all very fishy and there are people who believe that the entire thing was a setup- I doubt that, but it's possible.

One thing- she does say "Eamon, I think I've done a terrible thing."  This could be Anora admitting that she was using the Warden as a pawn and belatedly realizes she could have had a real ally.  Politics is a deadly game, and by involving him/herself in it, the Warden has agreed to play.  The Warden makes choices about life and death for other people all the time, so is it so egregious when you're in the same spot for once?  Just something to think about.

There is no excuse for what she did, it was outright selfish betrayal (and actually fairly incompetent as well). Loghain's lieutenant wouldn't have attacked the warden if Anora had just come forward and admitted that the warden had just rescued her. Not only is she a selfish traitor, but Anora is a coward too. I don't care how cunning you might be, a cowardly, selfish traitor is not the ideal choice for a ruler.

Well again, she's not a traitor, and I would argue that someone conniving and ruthless is a better choice for ruler if they are also competent.  Anora is not as brilliant as she thinks she is, but she is certainly more competent than Alistair for the role of ruler.  Without a Warden chancellor, I wouldn't make him sole king, since I don't trust Eamon.

The only way I can see it working is if Alistair is king and she plays as his wingman/advisor in the relationship.

Alistair is the wingman.  The epilogues bear this out.  If you don't want Anora's influence on the kingdom, you'd better not put her there.

She makes it perfectly clear when the marriage is suggested that Alistair would stay out of politics and leave her to rule alone though. I'll grant her this, it really is a "compromise" to allow her to stay on the throne by marrying Alistair. The only reasons I think I'm going to go with the marriage between them is because of the cards she has in her hand already. Ferelden benefits from the stability of keeping the same queen and Alistair benefits from her experience to become a better ruler. I still don't like it, but I can live with it and see the reasoning behind it over having Alistair rule unmarried. It could cause some issues down though line though if it turns out she really is barren. 

True, in many ways it is a better outcome for the country, but no arrangement is perfect or guaranteed to work.  You always roll the dice.  I don't think there is going to be a blood heir anyway, the devs have pretty much said there wouldn't be in any outcome.

I'm not complaining about the first concern. That is a reasonable action of her to do given the circumstances.

I agree with you entirely on your next two paragraphs though, with the exception of "annoying" being a huge understatement. I could agree that it is similar to other warden choices where the warden was explicitly "paranoid" or "incompetent" to the point where others suffer. I really like Cauthrien's sense of honor and duty and so it upsets me that she has to die because of Anora's incompetence, but then again Cauthrien's own incompetence is just as much to blame for so blindly serving such a terrible man.

You might not call her a "traitor", which more specifically implies betrayal of country or cause, but she definitely betrayed the warden and their trust here. 

I can only hope that as time progresses and hardened Alistair learns more about governance, he takes a bigger and bigger role in politics and Anora is more willing to share power, but I'm pretty skeptical. It's not that I don't want her influence at all, I just don't want her to have absolute power such that she answers to no one. She needs to be held accountable to someone because she doesn't have enough responsibility to handle absolute power herself.

Curious though, why don't you trust Eamon? He seems entirely loyal to the preservation of Calenhad's line on the throne and doesn't appear to have any ambitions for himself.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:10 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Curious though, why don't you trust Eamon? He seems entirely loyal to the preservation of Calenhad's line on the throne and doesn't appear to have any ambitions for himself.

Key phrase here is "doesn't appear to." And he does gain a good deal of power if the man he suggests for king becomes King. (Bonus points if said man hasn't been taught to think for himself.)

Now, there are plausible reasons for Eamon to act like a good, politically disinterested man if that's really the way he is. Namely, that that's how he really is. But if he was planning on taking over the country through Alistair, why would he tell you that? Or drop any hint at all? He doesn't know that you won't object, and he doesn't want you to have any reservations about Alistair on the throne.

Edit: Not to mention the evidence that Eamon is plotting behind Anora's back. I cannot really claim he's unjustified there, if he really believes Anora barren. But it doesn't really look good, and he manages to keep a straight face talking to and proposing common cause with her regardless.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 janvier 2013 - 11:14 .

[Addai]

EpicTragedy wrote...

I agree with you entirely on your next two paragraphs though, with the exception of "annoying" being a huge understatement. I could agree that it is similar to other warden choices where the warden was explicitly "paranoid" or "incompetent" to the point where others suffer. I really like Cauthrien's sense of honor and duty and so it upsets me that she has to die because of Anora's incompetence, but then again Cauthrien's own incompetence is just as much to blame for so blindly serving such a terrible man.

You can talk Cauthrien down at the Landsmeet.  It's easier to do if you surrendered at Howe's.

I can only hope that as time progresses and hardened Alistair learns more about governance, he takes a bigger and bigger role in politics and Anora is more willing to share power, but I'm pretty skeptical. It's not that I don't want her influence at all, I just don't want her to have absolute power such that she answers to no one. She needs to be held accountable to someone because she doesn't have enough responsibility to handle absolute power herself.

Her sole ruler outcome is fine, though.

Curious though, why don't you trust Eamon? He seems entirely loyal to the preservation of Calenhad's line on the throne and doesn't appear to have any ambitions for himself.

He uses Alistair from day one.  As of RtO, we know he was encouraging Cailan to set Anora aside, and he comes very quickly to the idea of putting Alistair forward as heir.  Meanwhile if Alistair is sent away for execution he doesn't make a peep.  He's as political as anyone, hence as self-serving as anyone, though this doesn't mean he isn't also thinking about what's best for the country.

[MisterJB]

EpicTragedy wrote...
This has nothing to do with Anora aligning with you. This happens before any of those conversations happen. At this point, you're just rescuing Anora from a traitorous Arl who kidnapped her. Cauthrien obviously wasn't in on this treachery and would have cooperated if Anora hadn't been so paranoid. You don't tell her "Anora is with me". You tell her "I rescued Anora from this ****ing traitor who kidnapped the queen, the daughter of your General". 

Get it now?

It has everything to do with it. Before going to the Estate, Eamon and the Warden discuss; as they should; how to use Anora for their political benefit. And it's quite obvious that Anora planned to allign with the Warden all along or she would have just called for her father.
Cauthrien works for Loghain, the man you're trying to depose and possibly execute. She would not have "cooperated". At the very least, she would have sent the Warden and Alistair to Fort Drakon and delivered Anora to her father. And this is how that lovely conversation would have went:

"The Warden rescued me from a traitor.
Loghain: That's nice sweetheart, now let me lock you in this cozy tower until the Landsmeet is over so you can't plot with my enemies."

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 janvier 2013 - 12:19 .

[TEWR]

Those aren't Howe's men, they're Loghain's men.

Yes, I know.

Which doesn't defeat my point of how she doesn't want Howe's men to find her and how she can't be sure she can trust her father's men either.

It isn't dumb, Cauthrien had no idea that she was kidnapped. Had she acknowledged the warden had rescued her and needed to go see Eamon immediately, Cauthrien would have let them pass. Instead, she stupidly cries for Cauthrien to arrest the warden who kidnapped her, leading to the deaths of many people who didn't have to die.

Right, Cauthrien's going to let the Warden who is aligned with Eamon -- who are both trying to get Loghain ousted -- take the one person who can pull enough sway with the Landsmeet to get Loghain... ousted.

Yeah... I don't buy that for an instant. Not when Ser Cauthrien devotedly follows Loghain whether he's right or wrong. Ya know, the trope called My Master, Right or Wrong.

You didn't betray her at all, as explained before, you're avoiding further confrontation when it isn't necessary.

She wants you to keep her identity hidden from her father's men just until the situation has settled down.

You're revealing who she is in front of people that she's not certain she can trust and going against her wishes.

That's a betrayal.

I'm not missing any information, I listened to all of those reasons and they are absurd.

Loghain wouldn't kill his only heir and the queen of Ferelden

Easy for one to dismiss a reason they don't agree with.

And metagame knowledge. We know this for a fact, but Anora isn't entirely certain. She herself is uncertain if Loghain killed Cailan or not. I'd say her wariness on whether or not Loghain might do the same to her is justified, even if she believed he wouldn't do it. Remember, Howe has been manipulating Loghain to do a lot of things he wouldn't have otherwise done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:21 .

[TEWR]

And it's quite obvious that Anora planned to allign with the Warden all along or she would have just called for her father.

KnightofPhoenix made a tumblr entry regarding the whole Anora deal that really says just why Anora. She wanted to test the Warden's capability of being an ally -- while for me also finding out for certain if Howe was indeed planning on killing Anora. Gonna repost it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

With regards to Anora being captured by Howe.

The whole scenario is quite possibly the result of poor writing, as it’s contradictory on several levels and indeed if taken at first glance, makes Anora and Howe both look like complete idiots. However, there is one plausible explanation.

Anora said she heard Howe suggesting her death. Her going to Howe’s estate as such is foolish, except if she hatched a plan. It is very possible that Anora got herself captured on purpose, perhaps enticed Howe in some way (like say, lure the Warden into the lion’s den). This is corroborated by the fact that Anora’s servant was allowed to go out of the estate and went straight for Eamon. How the hell can she do that without Howe knowing? He has proven himself capable of making sure there were no witnesses to his actions (Cousland massacre, taking over Denerim and imprisoning Vaughn). Howe may lack foresight, but he is not that much of an idiot.

Here’s the political situation. Loghain has the military advantage, as we know from the rumors and hearsay, having defeated the bannorn in the field of battle. However, Eamon’s revival means that the once leaderless bannorn now have a strong leader with a claim to the throne if he wished. Add to that, Eamon is allied with the Warden who had amassed several armies under his / her command, thus equalizing the distribution of military power. AND, the Warden has Alistair.

Anora must have sensed that the balance was shifting to the Warden’s side, and wanted to test the waters. Loghain is indeed domineering in his regency and Anora now sees the opportunity to grab the throne fully, by siding against Loghain AND ensuring unity in the process (hence her not opposing Loghain before, which would have been foolish. There was no alternative). And Anora can’t simply go to Eamon without Loghain knowing, she can’t afford to do so as Loghain can either stop her, or in the event that an alliance with the Warden is impossible, would make siding with Loghain again very hard. It’s preferrable if she does it in secret (of course the warden can screw it all up by exposing Anora to Cauthrien HENCE Anora claiming the Warden is trying to capture her. Excellent save if I say so myself).

SO, she staged her own capture, lured the Warden in, and placed herself in Eamon’s estate without Loghain knowing what she was doing. AND got Howe killed in the process. She essentially, managed to test the waters and see if siding with the Warden is a good prospect. Indeed, she can break the alliance between Eamon and the Warden to her benefit, or do the next best thing and secure a union via marriage.

All this makes Anora a keen politician, who understands who is the decisive piece in the game (the Warden). That, in addition to her administrative abilities and vision, make her a very good queen.

[Addai]

... all of that contingent on the fact that the Warden never cottons on that he's being manipulated and resents it, as our friend the OP does.

[EpicTragedy]

Addai67 wrote...

EpicTragedy wrote...

I agree with you entirely on your next two paragraphs though, with the exception of "annoying" being a huge understatement. I could agree that it is similar to other warden choices where the warden was explicitly "paranoid" or "incompetent" to the point where others suffer. I really like Cauthrien's sense of honor and duty and so it upsets me that she has to die because of Anora's incompetence, but then again Cauthrien's own incompetence is just as much to blame for so blindly serving such a terrible man.

You can talk Cauthrien down at the Landsmeet.  It's easier to do if you surrendered at Howe's.

I can only hope that as time progresses and hardened Alistair learns more about governance, he takes a bigger and bigger role in politics and Anora is more willing to share power, but I'm pretty skeptical. It's not that I don't want her influence at all, I just don't want her to have absolute power such that she answers to no one. She needs to be held accountable to someone because she doesn't have enough responsibility to handle absolute power herself.

Her sole ruler outcome is fine, though.

Curious though, why don't you trust Eamon? He seems entirely loyal to the preservation of Calenhad's line on the throne and doesn't appear to have any ambitions for himself.

He uses Alistair from day one.  As of RtO, we know he was encouraging Cailan to set Anora aside, and he comes very quickly to the idea of putting Alistair forward as heir.  Meanwhile if Alistair is sent away for execution he doesn't make a peep.  He's as political as anyone, hence as self-serving as anyone, though this doesn't mean he isn't also thinking about what's best for the country.

There's literally no reason to surrender to her though.

It's "fine" maybe in the sense that corrupt politicians today are "fine" because they don't entirely destroy the countries they are a part of because preserving it is always in their best interest. They don't really care for what's best for the people though, only what is best for themselves.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:43 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And it's quite obvious that Anora planned to allign with the Warden all along or she would have just called for her father.

KnightofPhoenix made a tumblr entry regarding the whole Anora deal that really says just why Anora. She wanted to test the Warden's capability of being an ally -- while for me also finding out for certain if Howe was indeed planning on killing Anora. Gonna repost it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

With regards to Anora being captured by Howe.

The whole scenario is quite possibly the result of poor writing, as it’s contradictory on several levels and indeed if taken at first glance, makes Anora and Howe both look like complete idiots. However, there is one plausible explanation.

Anora said she heard Howe suggesting her death. Her going to Howe’s estate as such is foolish, except if she hatched a plan. It is very possible that Anora got herself captured on purpose, perhaps enticed Howe in some way (like say, lure the Warden into the lion’s den). This is corroborated by the fact that Anora’s servant was allowed to go out of the estate and went straight for Eamon. How the hell can she do that without Howe knowing? He has proven himself capable of making sure there were no witnesses to his actions (Cousland massacre, taking over Denerim and imprisoning Vaughn). Howe may lack foresight, but he is not that much of an idiot.

Here’s the political situation. Loghain has the military advantage, as we know from the rumors and hearsay, having defeated the bannorn in the field of battle. However, Eamon’s revival means that the once leaderless bannorn now have a strong leader with a claim to the throne if he wished. Add to that, Eamon is allied with the Warden who had amassed several armies under his / her command, thus equalizing the distribution of military power. AND, the Warden has Alistair.

Anora must have sensed that the balance was shifting to the Warden’s side, and wanted to test the waters. Loghain is indeed domineering in his regency and Anora now sees the opportunity to grab the throne fully, by siding against Loghain AND ensuring unity in the process (hence her not opposing Loghain before, which would have been foolish. There was no alternative). And Anora can’t simply go to Eamon without Loghain knowing, she can’t afford to do so as Loghain can either stop her, or in the event that an alliance with the Warden is impossible, would make siding with Loghain again very hard. It’s preferrable if she does it in secret (of course the warden can screw it all up by exposing Anora to Cauthrien HENCE Anora claiming the Warden is trying to capture her. Excellent save if I say so myself).

SO, she staged her own capture, lured the Warden in, and placed herself in Eamon’s estate without Loghain knowing what she was doing. AND got Howe killed in the process. She essentially, managed to test the waters and see if siding with the Warden is a good prospect. Indeed, she can break the alliance between Eamon and the Warden to her benefit, or do the next best thing and secure a union via marriage.

All this makes Anora a keen politician, who understands who is the decisive piece in the game (the Warden). That, in addition to her administrative abilities and vision, make her a very good queen.

I find that theory extremely hard to believe and filled with ad-hoc metagame speculation. There's literally no way Anora couldn't know if she purposely got captured by Howe that he wouldn't have either tortured her or outright had her killed. It is still a stupid move if she did it on purpose, even stupider than the more accepted interpretation (thus less reason to believe it - Anora is supposed to be intelligent). This plan is a terrible plan unless you know for a fact that 1. You will not be harmed when captured by Howe and 2. God-Warden will be able to personally rescue you and kill Howe.

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Those aren't Howe's men, they're Loghain's men.

Yes, I know.

Which doesn't defeat my point of how she doesn't want Howe's men to find her and how she can't be sure she can trust her father's men either.

It isn't dumb, Cauthrien had no idea that she was kidnapped. Had she acknowledged the warden had rescued her and needed to go see Eamon immediately, Cauthrien would have let them pass. Instead, she stupidly cries for Cauthrien to arrest the warden who kidnapped her, leading to the deaths of many people who didn't have to die.

Right, Cauthrien's going to let the Warden who is aligned with Eamon -- who are both trying to get Loghain ousted -- take the one person who can pull enough sway with the Landsmeet to get Loghain... ousted.

Yeah... I don't buy that for an instant. Not when Ser Cauthrien devotedly follows Loghain whether he's right or wrong. Ya know, the trope called My Master, Right or Wrong.

You didn't betray her at all, as explained before, you're avoiding further confrontation when it isn't necessary.

She wants you to keep her identity hidden from her father's men just until the situation has settled down.

You're revealing who she is in front of people that she's not certain she can trust and going against her wishes.

That's a betrayal.

I'm not missing any information, I listened to all of those reasons and they are absurd.

Loghain wouldn't kill his only heir and the queen of Ferelden

Easy for one to dismiss a reason they don't agree with.

And metagame knowledge. We know this for a fact, but Anora isn't entirely certain. She herself is uncertain if Loghain killed Cailan or not. I'd say her wariness on whether or not Loghain might do the same to her is justified, even if she believed he wouldn't do it. Remember, Howe has been manipulating Loghain to do a lot of things he wouldn't have otherwise done.

My point is that Howe's men were out of the picture at that point and are no longer a concern. They shouldn't even be a consideration at this point yet you keep considering it.

The only reason Cauthrien wouldn't act as I suggested is if she and Loghain were actually aware of Howe's actions and working with him (which we know not to be the case). Cauthrien obviously didn't realize Anora had been captured by Howe, meaning Howe had acted alone and so Anora had no reason to fear her. Anora still thinking it was the case that Loghain was working with Howe at that point to imprison her, even in light of Cauthrien's reactions to the initial warden revelation, isn't rational. The best explanation is she was paranoid, got scared, and tried to play innocent - she lost her nerve and wasn't thinking clearly. The reason it is so incompetent is because her doing this literally does nothing to solve the symptom of what caused her to be paranoid in the first place. 

The only reasononable explanation for wanting you to keep her identity from her father's men is if somehow things don't work out with Eamon, she can crawl back to Loghain without him knowing any better of her attempted betrayal. Hence, even if she was acting "rationally" here, she still had already betrayed the warden by feigning loyalty/aid when really she's just trying to side with the winning team while still keeping the losing team in the dark (so that she can run back if things turn around). She betrayed both Loghain and the warden's trust here.

Arguing that the warden betrayed her first is like Loghain arguing that the wardens were responsible for Cailan's death when Loghain greets them at the beginning of the Landsmeet quest.

The bit about Cailan seems to reinforce my position that Anora's fears of her father are irrational even more, she didn't know whether or not Loghain betrayed Cailan. We know he did and I still find it practically impossible to believe that Loghain would kill his ONLY heir. Do you see how the bond between a father and daughter, especially when that daughter is the father's only son, is going to be much much stronger than the son-in-law who you don't get along with at all and you think a fool leading the country to ruin?

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:57 .

[TEWR]

There's literally no way Anora couldn't know if she purposely got captured by Howe that he wouldn't have either tortured her or outright had her killed

That would've been the politically stupid move for Howe. Killing her right away would lead to numerous questions on where she is, not to mention having to dispose of the body. Lying and saying she's staying as a guest keeps people off his back -- especially Loghain, who refused the idea of killing Anora -- while rendering her under his control.

And torture wouldn't do much good either. Again, her disappearance would still raise numerous questions. Just look at how many questions were raised by a lone soldier's disappearance, or a Templar's. Anora disappearing would be bad for Howe, and it's not like he can pull another Vaughan where he can just claim Anora was a victim of some event.

Plus, Anora is well-loved. So he can't just kill or torture her at the first possible moment, because that'd come with some heavy consequences. He'd have to plan it out. Which he can do if she's alive and under his control. Anora just happened to be smarter then him by leaps and bounds.

Howe may be a political moron in my eyes, but this is one of the few things he did that was smart for what he was planning.

God-Warden will be able to personally rescue you and kill Howe.

Wardens, by default, are able to take out non-Wardens easily. Look at how Sophia Dryden's rebellion against Arland was capable of withstanding a siege on Soldier's Peak for months and months before Demons were brought into the mix.

And the Warden doesn't just go in alone -- though he can -- but rather can go in with another Warden, or some Mages, a Dwarven warrior, a Qunari warrior, a bard skilled at deception, an assassin, or a trained warhound. 

And by this point in time, you've killed Abominations, Demons, Undead, Dragons trained soldiers, Werewolves, and Ancestors know what else. The plight at both Redcliffe and the Circle spread to outlying settlements, so people know that there were Demons plaguing both areas.

And the Warden is making a name for himself by having built an army.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:08 .

[TEWR]

My point is that Howe's men were out of the picture at that point and are no longer a concern. They shouldn't even be a consideration at this point yet you keep considering it.

Because Howe didn't just have control over those men you fought, but rather had control over two Arlings and a Teyrnir? 

Howe may be dead. That doesn't mean his men are all gone. And he does have his own confidants who know some of what he likes to do -- one codex in Awakening is from a soldier to Howe about how they need to deal with other people if the Cousland massacre is to go off without a hitch.

Anora still thinking it was the case that Loghain was working with Howe at that point to imprison her, even in light of Cauthrien's reactions to the initial warden revelation, isn't rational

Cauthrien isn't going to be privy on everything Loghain is contemplating. People in power do not always reveal their plots to their confidants. Information is power.

So Cauthrien not knowing isn't enough to say "Well, my father wasn't a bad person after all!"

The best explanation is she was paranoid, got scared, and tried to play innocent - she lost her nerve and wasn't thinking clearly.

Or you're trying to assert what you want to believe is the case as fact.

We know he did

He didn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

My point is that Howe's men were out of the picture at that point and are no longer a concern. They shouldn't even be a consideration at this point yet you keep considering it.

Because Howe didn't just have control over those men, but rather had control over two Arlings and a Teyrnir?

Howe may be dead. That doesn't mean his men are all gone. And he does have his own confidants.

Anora still thinking it was the case that Loghain was working with Howe at that point to imprison her, even in light of Cauthrien's reactions to the initial warden revelation, isn't rational

Cauthrien isn't going to be privy on everything Loghain is contemplating. People in power do not always reveal their plots to their confidants. Information is power.

So Cauthrien not knowing isn't enough to say "Well, my father wasn't a bad person after all!"

The best explanation is she was paranoid, got scared, and tried to play innocent - she lost her nerve and wasn't thinking clearly.

Or you're trying to assert what you want to believe is the case as fact.

We know he did

He didn't.

Those men won't stop her from getting to Eamon's estate where she will instantly be safe from all of them.

Cauthrien doesn't need to know, the fact that she doesn't is all that was necessary. It means that she will instantly be thankful the warden rescued Anora from the traitor. Further, the fact that Cauthrien isn't in on such a plot means she will be obligated to obey her queen and will have no reason not to.

I want to believe she slipped up with a moment of incompetence because she was scared because the only other explanation is that she was still playing at both sides (which would make the betrayal that much worse). Betrayal because someone had a moment of weakness is much more forgivable than an intentional betrayal where the Anora is just attempting to play for the winning side and making promises of loyalty to both to be sure.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the "we know he did" was in reference to Loghain betraying Cailan, which we do know, even though Anora doesn't. My point was that even us knowing that Loghain was capable of betraying Cailan, it wouldn't be reasonable to assume he was plotting against Anora. It is even less reasonable for Anora to think so because she isn't sure whether Loghain betrayed him or not.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:15 .

[TEWR]

Those men won't stop her from getting to Eamon's estate where she will instantly be safe from all of them.

And what, pray tell, do you have to back up that every one of Howe's soldiers will just let the Queen go by when Howe's been known to have an agenda and has been plotting with his soldiers and vassals to accomplish it?

Cauthrien doesn't need to know, the fact that she doesn't is all that was necessary.

I'm sorry... what?

The fact that Cauthrien doesn't know about a possible plot is proof positive that Loghain isn't going to go through with it? What?

Further, the fact that Cauthrien isn't in on such a plot means she will be obligated to obey her queen and will have no reason not to.

And yet, that's precisely what she wants to avoid. People loyal to her would take her back to the palace, where her father might kill her anyway -- that he wouldn't is not something she's entirely certain on, but she'd rather be safe then sorry.

Hence why she labels you a brigand if you betray her. She's trying to keep herself definitely alive and not risk possible death -- no matter how unlikely it is that Loghain might kill her to frame Eamon for it.

As for your "only heir" defense, well... the thing about Loghain is that to other people he's hell-bent on doing whatever it takes to sure Ferelden's independence. To Anora, that could even mean killing her if it meant Eamon could be defeated, the Bannorn united, and whatnot. If someone's saying they'll do whatever they must, no matter how unlikely it is they might do a particular thing, it's best not to take chances.

When she labels you a brigand, she's doing that to ensure that she's seen as Loghain's ally still since you just outed her, because she's not certain her father won't kill her. But if she makes it seem like she's being kidnapped by the Warden, then she can get Loghain to think that Anora's on his side still while having Howe out of the picture.

This is something Shale brings up in conversation with Loghain. 

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the "we know he did" was in reference to Loghain betraying Cailan, which we do know, even though Anora doesn't.

No, you were clear.

But Loghain didn't betray Cailan. I only brought up Cailan because Anora is uncertain whether Loghain betrayed Cailan or not.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:56 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Those men won't stop her from getting to Eamon's estate where she will instantly be safe from all of them.

And what, pray tell, do you have to back up that every one of Howe's soldiers will just let the Queen go by when Howe's been known to have an agenda and has been plotting with his soldiers and vassals to accomplish it?

Cauthrien doesn't need to know, the fact that she doesn't is all that was necessary.

I'm sorry... what?

The fact that Cauthrien doesn't know about a possible plot is proof positive that Loghain isn't going to go through with it.

Further, the fact that Cauthrien isn't in on such a plot means she will be obligated to obey her queen and will have no reason not to.

And yet, that's precisely what she wants to avoid. People loyal to her would take her back to the palace, where her father might kill her anyway -- that he wouldn't is not something she's entirely certain on, but she'd rather be safe then sorry.

Hence why she labels you a brigand if you betray her. She's trying to keep herself definitely alive and not risk possible death -- no matter how unlikely it is that Loghain might kill her to frame Eamon for it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the "we know he did" was in reference to Loghain betraying Cailan, which we do know, even though Anora doesn't.

No, you were clear.

But Loghain didn't betray Cailan.

-The fact that she is being escorted by Loghain's second in command and a large force of armed soldiers should be fairly obvious back up. 

-No, the fact that "even if" we're being paranoid here and assuming my father is trying to kill me, if he didn't let his Lieutenant Cauthrien in on it, I still have the authority of the queen and she is obligated to obey my royal order to escort me and these fine people who just rescued me to Arl Eamon's estate. - (unless of course she wants it kept quiet so that if somehow Loghain does win, she can crawl back to the winning side and he wouldn't know any better of her betrayal)

-Not unless she asked them to, which would be a rather unlikely outcome, don't you think?

-I would love to hear your argument for how Loghain didn't betray Cailan more than anything else. I am determined to marry Alistair to Anora this playthrough, but I am still going to execute Loghain myself for his crimes against king and country.

"Traitor" doesn't get any clearer than ~"you be the front line and I will flank upon the signal". *Ignores the signal and withdraws to leave you to die*~

Not to mention he lied about what happened, spread propaganda, and attempted a tyrannical overthrow of the government. But I would love to hear how he isn't a traitor.

[TEWR]

The fact that she is being escorted by Loghain's second in command and a large force of armed soldiers should be fairly obvious back up

Which is, again, what she wants to avoid. She doesn't want Loghain's men escorting her anywhere. She doesn't want Howe's men escorting her anywhere. Because there's still the possibility that she'll be killed.

She asks you to keep her identity hidden from Loghain's men and Howe's men. You chose to reveal it anyway.

That's a betrayal. Especially since Loghain's men will take her back to Loghain. Not to Eamon, but to Loghain. To think that Cauthrien would escort Anora to the man who's opposing Loghain -- especially since Cauthrien's following Loghain -- is a bit... odd. Loghain's the Regent at this time, meaning he's the one with more authority. And Anora herself notes that any guards that weren't on Howe's payroll would insist on taking her back to the palace, no matter what she wants to do.

Not unless she asked them to, which would be a rather unlikely outcome, don't you think?

I had to edit that part of my post just now, because I fudged up the punctuation which changed the meaning of it.

I would love to hear your argument for how Loghain didn't betray Cailan more than anything else. I am determined to marry Alistair to Anora this playthrough, but I am still going to execute Loghain myself for his crimes against king and country.

"Traitor" doesn't get any clearer than ~"you be the front line and I will flank upon the signal". *Ignores the signal and withdraws to leave you to die*~

Not to mention he lied about what happened, spread propaganda, and attempted a tyrannical overthrow of the government. But I would love to hear how he isn't a traitor.

One sec. It'll be a post all its own.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:06 .

[TEWR]

Actually, Opera doesn't like copying images for some reason, which are a crucial element of explaining Loghain's actions.

So here's a linky

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The fact that she is being escorted by Loghain's second in command and a large force of armed soldiers should be fairly obvious back up

Which is, again, what she wants to avoid. She doesn't want Loghain's men escorting her anywhere. She doesn't want Howe's men escorting her anywhere. Because there's still the possibility that she'll be killed.

She asks you to keep her identity hidden from Loghain's men and Howe's men. You chose to reveal it anyway.

That's a betrayal. Especially since Loghain's men will take her back to Loghain. Not to Eamon, but to Loghain. To think that Cauthrien would escort Anora to the man who's opposing Loghain -- especially since Cauthrien's following Loghain -- is a bit... odd. Loghain's the Regent at this time, meaning he's the one with more authority. And Anora herself notes that any guards that weren't on Howe's payroll would insist on taking her back to the palace, no matter what she wants to do.

Not unless she asked them to, which would be a rather unlikely outcome, don't you think?

I had to edit that part of my post just now, because I fudged up the punctuation which changed the meaning of it.

I would love to hear your argument for how Loghain didn't betray Cailan more than anything else. I am determined to marry Alistair to Anora this playthrough, but I am still going to execute Loghain myself for his crimes against king and country.

"Traitor" doesn't get any clearer than ~"you be the front line and I will flank upon the signal". *Ignores the signal and withdraws to leave you to die*~

Not to mention he lied about what happened, spread propaganda, and attempted a tyrannical overthrow of the government. But I would love to hear how he isn't a traitor.

One sec. It'll be a post all its own.

Again, Howe's men are irrelevant. When you are being escorted by an armed guard of Loghain's soldiers and their second lieutenant, who isn't in on the scheme to kill her even if there is one, no Howe soldier is going to mess with you - especially without a direct order from Howe himself, who happens to be dead now.

It's not a betrayal, it's stupidity that the warden never agrees to. "My people will insist on escorting me back to the palace" is such a joke. She is the the queen and it is fully in her power to not be bullied around by her servants "insisting". There is no rational reason to be afraid of her own people and it isn't betrayal to reveal oneself to one's own people who will protect them at all costs.

The only justified reasons are either she is paranoid and acting incompetently, or she specifically intends not to be seen traveling to Eamons estate (which she would have no problem reaching) because she is loyal to no one but herself and will side with whoever wins. If it were made known to Loghain and Loghain wins, it becomes that much harder to curry favor with him knowing she plotted against him. I prefer the brief lapse of incompetence because it's more forgivable and more believable (my god does she nervously twitch with her fingers a lot).

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, Opera doesn't like copying images for some reason, which are a crucial element of explaining Loghain's actions.

So here's a linky

Tactical retreat? Are you serious? It was a planned strategic withdrawal that used Cailan and his army as bait. How do you not see that as treason? His regretting it or not is entirely irrelevant to the fact that he did it.  His failure to send men to rescue Cailan or sound the retreat isn't a political shortcoming, it's a military one. 

It goes on about Orlesians quite a bit which I'm not necessarily concerned with in regards to labeling Loghain a traitor. 

As much as I have my criticisms of Anora, we are in perfect agreement about Loghain - he had gone mad. What man he was is irrelevant.

He set up a battleplan that used Cailan as the bait and then abandoned him. Even if they were hopelessly outnumbered as you argue, which isn't necessarily known, rather than flanking he could have easily reinforced and held the choke long enough for an actual tactical retreat. What Loghain did in fact do was not a tactical retreat, it was plan and simple desertion no matter how much you try to butter it up. 

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:32 .

[TEWR]

When you are being escorted by an armed guard of Loghain's soldiers and their second lieutenant, who isn't in on the scheme to kill her even if there is one, no Howe soldier is going to mess with you - especially without a direct order from Howe himself, who happens to be dead now.

You're missing the point.

She doesn't want to be taken to the palace by anyone. It doesn't matter that Howe's dead. If Howe's men found her and she was without guards, she'd be killed. If people loyal to her or Loghain found her, they'd just take her back to the palace and leave it at that -- where Loghain might've also had her killed, because Anora wasn't certain Loghain had refused the idea.

She is the the queen and it is fully in her power to not be bullied around by her servants "insisting". The only justified reasons are either she is paranoid and acting incompetently, or she specifically intends not to be seen traveling to Eamons estate (which she would have no problem reaching) because she is loyal to no one but herself and will side with whoever wins.

Well, it's not a good idea if she's publicly seen going to Loghain's political enemy. She does want that to be a secret. Hence the uniform, the hidden identity, and everything else until she reaches Eamon's estate.

And they're not "her servants". They're Loghain's soldiers, who take their orders from Loghain the Teyrn of Gwaren, Hero of River Dane, and Regent of the throne.

A regency, by definition, is when the person who is appointed "Regent" is the one with the authority over everything. Until the Landsmeet recognizes Anora as the true power on the throne -- as opposed to recognizing her as the Woman Behind the Man -- her authority isn't much.

If it were made known to Loghain and Loghain wins, it becomes that much harder to curry favor with him knowing she plotted against him

Which is what KoP said in the post I made where I quoted him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:24 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When you are being escorted by an armed guard of Loghain's soldiers and their second lieutenant, who isn't in on the scheme to kill her even if there is one, no Howe soldier is going to mess with you - especially without a direct order from Howe himself, who happens to be dead now.

You're missing the point.

She doesn't want to be taken to the palace by anyone. It doesn't matter that Howe's dead. If Howe's men found her and she was without guards, she'd be killed. If people loyal to her or Loghain found her, they'd just take her back to the palace and leave it at that -- where Loghain might've also had her killed, because Anora wasn't certain Loghain had refused the idea.

She is the the queen and it is fully in her power to not be bullied around by her servants "insisting". The only justified reasons are either she is paranoid and acting incompetently, or she specifically intends not to be seen traveling to Eamons estate (which she would have no problem reaching) because she is loyal to no one but herself and will side with whoever wins.

Well, it's not a good idea if she's publicly seen going to Loghain's political enemy. She does want that to be a secret. Hence the uniform, the hidden identity, and everything else until she reaches Eamon's estate.

And they're not "her servants". They're Loghain's soldiers, who take their orders from Loghain the Teyrn of Gwaren, Hero of River Dane, and Regent of the throne.

A regency, by definition, is when the person who is appointed "Regent" is the one with the authority over everything. Until the Landsmeet recognizes Anora as the true power on the throne -- as opposed to recognizing her as the Woman Behind the Man -- her authority isn't much.

If it were made known to Loghain and Loghain wins, it becomes that much harder to curry favor with him knowing she plotted against him

Which is what KoP said in the post I made where I quoted him.

No you're missing the point - she isn't going to the palace. She is the queen, she demands to be taken to Eamon's estate. The only individual with enough political authority to challenge her demand is Loghain, who isn't there. Her people may insist she be taken to the royal palace, but they have no authority over her. She is their queen. You seem to have the chain of command upside down. The only reason someone would literally disobey their queen is if they were in direct revolt against her (aka Howe's men who kidnapped her, or possibly Loghain's men who were in on the plot - and we have established that Loghain's men which confront us are clearly not in on such a plot).

They are her servants, she is the queen. The entire realm of Ferelden serves her (beyond some irrelevant arguments about church vs state when it comes to her authority over chantry/templar etc). The only individual with enough political authority to possibly challenge her command is Loghain, who isn't there.

I can see how this is an interpretational uncertainty however. If we simply disagree on whether or not Cauthrien (who happens to think of herself as loyal, honorable, and obedient) would disobey a direct command from her queen, then there isn't much else to discuss. Cauthrien's obedience or disobedience is essentially the core of the argument and I don't see you convincing me that she would disobey her queen. If I haven't convinced you at this point, odds are I won't be able to, and this discussion has inconclusively met its end unless an official Bioware writer is willing to make a formal canonical statement on what would have happened if Anora hadn't betrayed the warden and had gone with their plan.

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:51 .

[TEWR]

Tactical retreat? Are you serious? It was a planned strategic withdrawal that used Cailan and his army as bait

Yeah, no. Word of God says the Darkspawn were far more numerous then anyone would've thought and that if Loghain saw a chance at victory, he would've charged.

Loghain repeatedly protested Cailan fighting on the front lines -- which is something historical kings would only do during important battles, but Cailan did it for every battle in the name of GLORY -- and Cailan said "I will stand with the Wardens and you'll remember who is king!".

His failure to send men to rescue Cailan or sound the retreat isn't a political shortcoming, it's a military one.

Right, tell me how many men should be wasted to save a fool of a king? That you would place one person's life above that of thousands and thousands, or that you think Loghain's men could've cut through all the Darkspawn, saved Cailan, and then cut through the remaining Darkspawn to flee -- thus sacrificing many lives in the process? 

Cailan's death was his own doing. He chose to fight on the front lines. If he's going to play soldier, he better damn well know the risks. And indeed, not long after the retreat was sounded Cailan dies in battle, which means that even had Loghain attempted to use his men to rescue the king Cailan would've died anyway.

Maric once told Loghain that if Loghain was pressed with the choice to save the king or the nation, to choose the latter over the former. This was after a very disastrous battle where Loghain saved Maric over other people. That's what Loghain did here. 

It goes on about Orlesians quite a bit which I'm not necessarily concerned with in regards to labeling Loghain a traitor.

Well, it's vital to understanding why he does what he does. If you ignore it, you do yourself no credit.

Even if they were hopelessly outnumbered as you argue, which isn't necessarily known

Other then when you stand on the bridge and can see how far the horde stretches -- into the very ass-end of the Korcari Wilds, over the mountains.

What Loghain did in fact do was not a tactical retreat, it was plan and simple desertion no matter how much you try to butter it up.

Word of God says you're wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:59 .

[EpicTragedy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Tactical retreat? Are you serious? It was a planned strategic withdrawal that used Cailan and his army as bait

Yeah, no. Word of God says the Darkspawn were far more numerous then anyone would've thought and that if Loghain saw a chance at victory, he would've charged.

Loghain repeatedly protested Cailan fighting on the front lines -- which is something historical kings would only do during important battles, but Cailan did it for every battle in the name of GLORY -- and Cailan said "I will stand with the Wardens and you'll remember who is king!".

His failure to send men to rescue Cailan or sound the retreat isn't a political shortcoming, it's a military one.

Right, tell me how many men should be wasted to save a fool of a king? That you would place one person's life above that of thousands and thousands, or that you think Loghain's men could've cut through all the Darkspawn, saved Cailan, and then cut through the remaining Darkspawn to flee -- thus sacrificing many lives in the process? 

Cailan's death was his own doing. He chose to fight on the front lines. If he's going to play soldier, he better damn well know the risks. And indeed, not long after the retreat was sounded Cailan dies in battle, which means that even had Loghain attempted to use his men to rescue the king Cailan would've died anyway.

Maric once told Loghain that if Loghain was pressed with the choice to save the king or the nation, to choose the latter over the former. This was after a very disastrous battle where Loghain saved Maric over other people. That's what Loghain did here. 

It goes on about Orlesians quite a bit which I'm not necessarily concerned with in regards to labeling Loghain a traitor.

Well, it's vital to understanding why he does what he does. If you ignore it, you do yourself no credit.

Even if they were hopelessly outnumbered as you argue, which isn't necessarily known

Other then when you stand on the bridge and can see how far the horde stretches -- into the very ass-end of the Korcari Wilds, over the mountains.

What Loghain did in fact do was not a tactical retreat, it was plan and simple desertion no matter how much you try to butter it up.

Word of God says you're wrong.

1-"Word of God"? Loghain didn't need to see a chance at victory, he just needed a chance at warning the front lines and signalling an actual tactical retreat. Off-topic, but this does bring up a potential plothole in that how did a grey warden as old as Duncan not sense it was such a hopelessly large force?

2-Cailan being a fool of a king is irrelevant to accusations of Loghain's treason. Ostagar holds a massive chokepoint and from his high ground, he should have had plenty of time to see how large a force of darkspawn were marching towards Cailan's position. This is plenty of time to send scouts to order the tacticalwithdrawal of Cailan and his army, moving his own army in position to coordinate such a withdrawal. 

3-Let's be clear, saying "Cailan's death was his own doing" is as naive as saying "Cailan's death was the ogre's doing". Loghain was in possession of crucial intelligence of just how large of a force the darkspawn possessed and had a duty to warn his king. Instead, he waited deep into the actual engagement, then decided to desert and quit the field. That is treason and makes him partially responsible for his death.

4-The Orlesian bit is irrelevant to my charges of treason. My ignoring it is a matter of simplification because bringing it up only gives further discredit to Loghain. Loghain refusing to accept Orlesian aid is just as foolish as Cailan wanting to fight on the front lines. Duncan's plan was more competent than Loghain's, but Loghain wouldn't have it because of personal reasons. 

5-Who is "Word of God" and what is his argument for what Loghain did not being desertion? He made a plan to support Cailan in battle by flanking him. In the middle of the battle, he quits the field without sending a single soldier to his king. That is desertion. I don't care who you are, if you're going to admit that is what happened, you cannot say that isn't desertion, and it's a simple fact that desertion is a form of treason, thus making Loghain a traitor.

Not to mention the fact that Loghain goes on to lie about the events of the battle to both the people and the nobility, falsely blame the Grey Wardens and run a propaganda campaign against them, and tyrannically overthrow the Ferelden government. Treason is the verdict.

You can try to say he was "justified" for his treason all you want, but even if he was "justified", that doesn't make him any less of a traitor. He made a promise to the King, his army, and the grey wardens, and failed to keep that promise on the battlefield. 

He isn't necessary a completely evil person, but he is a traitor who deserted his king and madly attempted a tyrannical overthrow of the kingdom. However you choose to interpret his motivations or intentions, those are the indisputable facts. 

Modifié par EpicTragedy, 23 janvier 2013 - 06:52 .

[Addai]

EpicTragedy wrote...

There's literally no reason to surrender to her though.

It's "fine" maybe in the sense that corrupt politicians today are "fine" because they don't entirely destroy the countries they are a part of because preserving it is always in their best interest. They don't really care for what's best for the people though, only what is best for themselves.

You're incredibly outnumbered.  The fight is very difficult to win, which should tell you something.

Anora's rule is good for the people.  You can't get around the results, even if it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

[Addai]

EpicTragedy wrote...

Tactical retreat? Are you serious? It was a planned strategic withdrawal that used Cailan and his army as bait. How do you not see that as treason? His regretting it or not is entirely irrelevant to the fact that he did it.  His failure to send men to rescue Cailan or sound the retreat isn't a political shortcoming, it's a military one.

Not to derail the thread (where's my Loghain meme?) but Loghain had only planned a retreat scenario as contingency.  He did not set Cailan up to die.  Hence why he was arguing with him about being on the front lines.

He set up a battleplan that used Cailan as the bait and then abandoned him. Even if they were hopelessly outnumbered as you argue, which isn't necessarily known, rather than flanking he could have easily reinforced and held the choke long enough for an actual tactical retreat. What Loghain did in fact do was not a tactical retreat, it was plan and simple desertion no matter how much you try to butter it up. 

The horde was much larger than anyone anticipated.  If you look at the hillside, you can see darkspawn pouring through the wilds with no end in sight.  Any flanking maneuver would be overwhelmed and surrounded in short order.  They hadn't seen them earlier, and the Wardens hadn't sensed them, because they come up from underground.

I agree with you, to reiterate, that there's no defense for Anora turning you over to Cauthrien.  Even if she feared for her life, at that point her life is more secure than the Warden's.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 janvier 2013 - 07:14 .