31 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

Anyone else get the urge to slap that idiot repeatedly, hoping she would eventually recognize that it's SHE who was ultimately responsible for _ALL_ of the death and destruction and her husband's poisoning?  I was soooooooooooooooo tempted to take her up on her offer to sacrifice herself to save Connor!

[Maybe that's why the BW has her Codex entry ending with "She sacrificed herself to save her son, Connor" , regardless of how you resolve the quest.]

Modifié par CptPatch, 08 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .

[padewan0913]

A. I don't she was -completely- responsible for the poisoning. Loghain would have offered the job to Jowan (since I assume Loghain offered before Jowan was hired by Isolde), so it could have happened anyway.



Which leads to B. If the poisoning happened anyway, Connor would still have made the pact because he did it to save his dad, not for power or what have you.



In game continuity, yes, she is ultimately to blame. And yes, I want to smack her too My first plaay I did sac her

[CptPatch]

padewan0913 wrote...

A. I don't she was -completely- responsible for the poisoning. Loghain would have offered the job to Jowan (since I assume Loghain offered before Jowan was hired by Isolde), so it could have happened anyway.

Which leads to B. If the poisoning happened anyway, Connor would still have made the pact because he did it to save his dad, not for power or what have you.

In game continuity, yes, she is ultimately to blame. And yes, I want to smack her too My first plaay I did sac her

A) _Because_ she deliberately brings in a **Blood Mage**, it gave the assassin an avenue of approach.  If _she_ didn't bring in any kind of Mage to secretly instruct Connor, Jowan (in particular) wouldn't have had access to Eamon.  Obviously, if that avenue wasn't available, Loghain would have tried a different approach.  More than likely though, w/o Isolde trying to keep secrets and therefore keeping the assassin hidden from Eamon (taking care of half of the assassin's task), the easy access would have been absent.  Given the greater difficulty, there would be a distinct possibility that Eamon might not have been poisoned.  But if he was, in THAT instance, Isolde would most probably not have been the ultimate enabler for the assassin as she was for Jowan.

[I really, really wonder how Loghain learned Isolde was looking to hire a Blood Mage.]

The ONLY reason you get the demon inside Connor is because Isolde insisted on Connor learn some magic in secret.  If he doesn't start dabbling, he doesn't make the mistake that lets the demon in.  Connor is a clear example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

[GeorgeZip]

She's so hot, what an outfit. I did take her up on the offer first game however. I hadn't been to the mage tower yet and had no idea if Conor would just slaughter everything by the time I made it back.



Did you know you can explore the castle a bit before leaving for the mages? I took a wrong turn by accident last game and was attacked by 6 guards. You can go to the 2nd floor and it might be possible to fight Conor directly in his room. That would probably be very unpopular with your companions.

[tevikolady]

CptPatch wrote...


A) _Because_ she deliberately brings in a **Blood Mage**, it gave the assassin an avenue of approach.  If _she_ didn't bring in any kind of Mage to secretly instruct Connor, Jowan (in particular) wouldn't have had access to Eamon.  Obviously, if that avenue wasn't available, Loghain would have tried a different approach.  More than likely though, w/o Isolde trying to keep secrets and therefore keeping the assassin hidden from Eamon (taking care of half of the assassin's task), the easy access would have been absent.  Given the greater difficulty, there would be a distinct possibility that Eamon might not have been poisoned.  But if he was, in THAT instance, Isolde would most probably not have been the ultimate enabler for the assassin as she was for Jowan.

[I really, really wonder how Loghain learned Isolde was looking to hire a Blood Mage.]

The ONLY reason you get the demon inside Connor is because Isolde insisted on Connor learn some magic in secret.  If he doesn't start dabbling, he doesn't make the mistake that lets the demon in.  Connor is a clear example of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

a) she sought an APOSTATE.  An apostate is only a mage out of the circles control.  Malificar and apostate are used interchangeably, but that is not the case.  Morrigane is an apostate, but she is not a blood mage. 

yes, this is true.  Connor was train in enough magic that a demon could approach him.  such was his DESIRE that his father live, that the deal was struck, again, Isolde's fault.  

It was so often that I wanted to deck the woman, merely because of her voice.  Gah, ah well, I let her live, and secretly rooted for Bann Tegan when he stood up to her.  GO TEAGAN.

[padewan0913]

A. I can see where you're coming from. However I think she was looking for an apostate, not necessarily a blood mage. But yes, her hiding of him did help his task immensely.



B. From what I have heard in the game, it seems as though magic will manifest itself whether you are trained or not, I could be very wrong though. It seems like magic in DA resembles the One Power in the Wheel of Time series, it's possible to survive without training it's use, the training just makes it easier. So I think the Circle's purpose is to train mages to resist demons, as an unwieldy mage would probably attract more attention. (Again, this is all theory based on my thinking that magic happens with or without training)

[Creature 1]

Some of the mage training might help resist demons, most of it is just keeping you on hand so when you get possessed they can put you down.

[wrathofnature]

Personally I have some sympathy for Isolde as she was just trying to keep her son with his family and stop him from being taken away by the Chantry/Templars.

Also blood mage does not equal 'evil' imo. It's what you do with the power that matters.

[CptPatch]

dupe

Modifié par CptPatch, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:32 .

[CptPatch]

wrathofnature wrote...
Personally I have some sympathy for Isolde as she was just trying to keep her son with his family and stop him from being taken away by the Chantry/Templars.

Also blood mage does not equal 'evil' imo. It's what you do with the power that matters.

What really, REALLY outraged me about Isolde was
1) She had an almost negligible concern about the scores, perhaps hundreds of deaths that resulted from a sequence of events that SHE initiated.  All she is concerned about , the ONLY thing she was concerned about  was "They'll take my baby away from _me_!"  There was no real concern about what would be best for Connor; just the loss _she_ would suffer. (Selfish ****.) [Pardon my French.]  Just listening to her talk, if after all the deaths, if she did, in fact get to keep her child with her, she'd probably think the price was steep, but "necessary".

2) She was dispatched by the demon in Connor to NOT fetch Teagan, but rather to bring back the person that the demon thought had been in charge of the defense that was stymying his advances.  "Cut off the head and the body dies."  Did she even hesitate to remove what was probably THE keystone to whatever hope of survival the villagers might have?  Not at all.  Just look at how thoroughly she failed to explain anything about why _Teagan_ had to go back with her.  To put him at the mercies of the demon that had all but exterminated everyone in the castle, and was bent on destroying the village as well.  And whatever civilization there was nearby.  Why?  "Maybe it will let us go.  Or maybe just Connor.  If Connor gets out of this alive, it will be worth it."

Love is certainly blind if after seeing all the devastation Isolde caused, Eamon doesn't have her put on trial and punished for her "Crimes against Humanity."

Ah, but then again, it was only peasants that died.  It'd be a different story if a noble had died.

Modifié par CptPatch, 08 janvier 2010 - 08:33 .

[thegreateski]

I punched her and stabbed her kid.



It seemed appropriate at the time.

[Basher of Glory]

Aspect 1:
Isolde was certainly not responsible but she enormously eased the terms for the assassination-attempt.
Conclusion: Compliancy.


Aspect 2
Let's say she would not have been looking for a mage-trainer. Connor WAS gifted with magic and thus, it's easy to imagine that he would do some nonsense and probably started a similar chain of events sooner or later. Perhaps his birthday present was not to his liking? Some other boy punched him in the face? He wants a cat but the Arl says no?
Here we can search for the causa sine qua non, which would lead us to the time, when the Arlessa found out about the magical abilities and did not send her son to the tower immediately.
Conclusion: Guilty!

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 08 janvier 2010 - 08:50 .

[CptPatch]

Wynne points out at one point that when she was a child, another child annoyed her, so she accidentally set his hair on fire. ("I didn't know I could do _that_!") But as I understand it, demons and spirits ONLY take possession when the Mage is in the Fade. Without training, talented children can effect minor spells, but with little in the way of control. Usually, _somebody_ notes the child's talents and does something about it.



Now, you'd figure that there would be a notable number children that don't necessarily become aware of their talent as spectacularly as Wynne did when she was a child. So, statistically speaking, odds favor that a fair number go for several years before they're found out.



IF UNTRAINED CHILDREN WERE PARTICULARLY SUSCEPTIBLE to being possessed, it would undoubtedly be a topic of discussion at some point. It never comes up, except in the case of Connor -- who HAS received some training, but not under the rigid regimen of the Circle of Magi. Or of Flemeth, for that matter. In fact, other than Connor, it seems that the only possessions seem to be with weak/sloppy Mages that got careless or stupid while they were in the Fade by their own choice (or were tortured into submission, as in the Tower).



So, I feel quite strongly that had Connor received NO training prior to the party's arrival in Redcliffe, he would NOT have been possessed by the demon. (And Eamon probably would have died of the poison because the demon wasn't interceding to keep him alive.) [But then, Eamon wouldn't have been poisoned, because that apostate that Isolde hired wouldn't have been hired and given the opportunity to do the poisoning.]

[ejoslin]

padewan0913 wrote...

A. I don't she was -completely- responsible for the poisoning. Loghain would have offered the job to Jowan (since I assume Loghain offered before Jowan was hired by Isolde), so it could have happened anyway.

Which leads to B. If the poisoning happened anyway, Connor would still have made the pact because he did it to save his dad, not for power or what have you.

In game continuity, yes, she is ultimately to blame. And yes, I want to smack her too My first plaay I did sac her

She was completely responsible.  Put the poisoning aside.  Abominations are supposed to be put to death, and if it were someone else's child, they would have been turned over to the templars.  All those people she was supposed to protect, her villagers, died, because she was protecting the life of her one child.  Everyone else's children were not important.

Yes, I wanted to smack her.

[Basher of Glory]

I have my doubts about what you said about 'mages have to be in the fade to be possessed'. Is this confirmed by some codex entry I missed?



As far as I understood it, if a mage makes one mistake (s)he could accidentially tear the veil between the real world and the fade. This would enable demons to enter the real world and capture the mage.

Of course this could happen, too, when a mage tries to fiddle around with demon summoning and the like.

So IMO a mage must not be IN the fade to become an abomination; it's enough when (s)he makes ONE mistake (Vynne said so).



IIRC Jowan explained, that Connor accidentially tore a hole into the veil and the misfortune started. If Connor would have been sent to the tower in time, this would not have happened in the Arl's castle, perhaps never.

[SusanStoHelit]

Correct, if Isolde had told Eamon, Conor would've been sent to the Circle. She wouldn't have called for an apostate. No demon, no abominations or undead or anything like that, no slaughtered villagers or elven servants having their ears fed to the dogs.



Loghain - might have slipped someone in and poisoned Eamon anyway. And he might have died. So what? One death only. And Teaghan would then be his heir. Much less grisly and gruesome than what happened, yes?



But, in fact, although Isolde certainly must take a huge part of the blame - the ultimate responsibility is with the Chantry. It is their teachings that caused Isolde to act as she did, her shame at the idea that people would find out that her son was a mage (she's intensely religious after all). In my book the havoc at Redcliffe is about 50/50 Isolde and the chantry.

[swk3000]

I seem to remember something about Orlesians having a thing against Mage's, more-so than most other countries. Basically, the idea of people knowing she gave birth to a Mage isn't just a 'Not my baby!' thing, it's also something that brings shame on her. I may be completely off-base, but I seem to remember that being the case.



Anyway, to me the fault is completely Isolde's. There's a reason Mage's are sent to the Circle, and it's not because they want to punish them. Until a child has been trained to control their magic, they are incredibly dangerous. Isolde, however, only saw the loss of her son (and possible shame). Because she refused to see the danger posed by her son, despite the fact that the danger posed by untrained mage's is extremely well known, all responsibility falls on her head.

[EnchantedEyes1]

IMO Isolde is completely responsible for the slaughter of the village. I think Bann Teagan was right on when he held her to task. First time I let her sacrifice herself, second time I went to the circle and last time I confronted Connor. I have to say the last time she redeemed herself a little bit in my eyes although this choice had me in tears.

I believe as many of the previous posters that a mage can be possessed regardless of the training. By not sending Connor to the Circle for training she put everyone in danger as he was vulnerable and unprepared to deal with the demon when she approached him.

Isolde held herself and her child above everyone else and that arrogance and disregard for others is what really torqued me.

[MelaninBrighteye]

Blame is for Isolde, of course but you can blame for that too, as so you can blame him everything bad happening on Thedas.

I mean, I can understand she doesn't want to leave his child... but c'mon, anyone can expect a stranger mage to cause lots of problems. As Teagan stated everything bad happened on happened Redcliffe because of her so-called protecting her son thingy.

[stribies]

I blame goats

[frylock23]

Yeah, I never fail to wish that I could just slap Isolde silly. Whatever you think about the issues in the larger society, no one forced Isolde to hide Conner's ability. No one forced Isolde to hire an apostate mage to try to cover things up. She made those decisions on her own, and even if you let her sacrifice herself, it's pretty clear she's only concerned about her son and not all the other havoc her poor choices have caused. She also seems to be only too happy to blame others for the direct consequences of her own actions. However, if you read her codex entry, it seems clear to me that she is the sort that acts on emotional impulse first and thinks later if at all because the codex seems to imply that while she stayed out of love for Eamon, she didn't realize the full implications of that choice until much later.

[swk3000]

There are several people who need a dialogue option that simply states:



B*tchslap the fscking moron



I'd use it on both Morrigan and Islolde.

[CptPatch]

frylock23 wrote...
she is the sort that acts on emotional impulse first and thinks later if at all because the codex seems to imply that while she stayed out of love for Eamon, she didn't realize the full implications of that choice until much later.

Impulse is react->do, without pausing to think about it.  But what we have here is
1) She discovers Connor has magic
2) Decides to hire an apostate!
3) Takes pains to locate a Magic intructor/apostate to do the job
4) Sends for apostate
5) Settles him into the castles such that Eamon won't find out
6) starts Connor's lessons
That sequence is waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy past an "emotional response".  PLENTY of time to reconsider the wisdom of her initial decision.

[Sylvius the Mad]

frylock23 wrote...
she is the sort that acts on emotional impulse first and thinks later if at all because the codex seems to imply that while she stayed out of love for Eamon, she didn't realize the full implications of that choice until much later.

So you're saying she's dumb.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 08 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[CptPatch]

She's blond, isn't she? AND an Orlaisian.