882 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

4 talents. DA2 had 4 archery talents. That's it. 4.

How many did the first game have? 16. That's right.... 4x as many. Including a bunch of varied, diverse sustains that could be used to give different effects to  your  activated talents. Archery in DA:O and Awakening was more than just "fun". It was dynamic and had enough depth to make your second archer playthough *different* from your first.

Xerxes52 wrote...
Crossbows for Warriors. Extremely high range and damage, but slow rate of fire.

YES.

And while we're on the subject, how about Bows for Warriors too.  No reason to concede to the faulty and LAZY premise that Bioware invented for DA2, which states  that only Rogues can use Bows,  when in fact,  before DA2, warriors  could use bows too, and be better archers than Rogues in just about every  other  fantasy RPG  ever made.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:04 .

[LPPrince]

I think they want each class to feel more unique, hence limiting longbows to the Bronns of DA and keeping them away from the Sandor Cleganes.

[Yrkoon]

  Yes, we know what they *tried* to do.  They failed. You don't make rogues unique by giving them skills that warriors should have, and then telling warriors that despite the fact that they're weapon masters, they cannot use a very COMMON martial weapon. What they did was beyond Ridiculous.  it was a joke.  An almost deliberate insult to the entire genre.

You make rogues unique by empowering their already existing Rogue skills. Like stealth, backstab, lockpicking,  Reconniasance, Trap laying, etc. And you make Warriors unique by giving them cart blanche to ALL weapons, and making them the undisputed kings on the battlefield with those weapons.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:19 .

[LPPrince]

Lets keep in mind this is opinion here, not dead set fact.

For example, I never got the feeling that warriors in DA were supposed to be weapon masters. Just that they were typically the guys and gals with swords and shields, greatswords, etc etc. But not masters of everything.

Rogues on the other hand I always thought of being the lockpicking, trap laying, backstabbing, dual dagger archery guys.

And Mages are...well, Mages.

[Yrkoon]

LPPrince wrote...
Rogues on the other hand I always thought of being the lockpicking, trap laying, backstabbing, dual dagger archery guys.

Right.  Which means DA2 still failed, even for someone holding such an opinion.  DA2 rogues can't lay traps.  They can't sneak, and  their backstabbing is limited to an activated talent with a cooldown.

So basically they're nothing more than  warriors who can open locks.  Are we supposed to see that as "unique"?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:25 .

[LPPrince]

Well at the same time, I attribute the type of character I'm playing to their class as well.

For example, my Warden was a sword and shield warrior. Guy who mainly did the right thing, was always being positive with people and kind to 99% of the people he met, etc etc

My Hawke on the other hand was an archer rogue. She also mainly did the right thing(depending on what you consider "right"), was sarcastic as all bloody hell, always cracking jokes, and was hard on the people who deserved it.

So at least for me, in DA2 I wasn't very miffed by how rogues played. It worked, at least for me. Though I do hope for more utility and more uniqueness.

Hence this thread being about how we can improve archery going forward.

[Yrkoon]

Alright, but lets leave the Character moral compasses for another discussion, since it's irrelevant. Archery is a weapon style, not a personality trait.  And for the purposes of this discussion, Rogue is a character class, not an adjective lol

So back on topic. IMO, Archery doesn't necessarily need to be "improved" for the next game, so much as expanded on. Here's a quick bullet-point presentation of what I want to see with archery

1) First and foremost - Archery should be a skill usable by all 3 classes. (more on this below)

2) Introduce (reintroduce) multiple types of launchers for the different classes. Mages should be able to use Slings and darts; Rogues should be able to use Longbows and Shortbows, And warriors should be able to use all of the mentioned + crossbows. And the archery trees should be avaliable to ALL classes with their respective launchers. Limitations? Simple, the archery tree should be Dex based. If you really want your mage to be a master archer, then you're going to have to sacrifice a high magic score to get yourself a high DEX score.

3) The archery talent tree should be just that: a Tree. Not some small branch with 4 talents. There should be sustains, passive and activated talents in this tree.

In short: give archery the love it deserves. it should get equal representation on the talent screen that Melee and magic get.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 janvier 2013 - 12:58 .

[LPPrince]

I agree with the full tree treatment. But I don't know about giving all classes bows.

But that's just me.

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

New abilities?  Meh, how about they bring back the *dozen*  from Origins/Awakening   that they shamelessly got rid of for DA2.

Not really. They just moved some of them to other trees. Rapid Shot is now Speed. Accuracy is now Precision. I'd argue that taking Blindside is the equivalent of Arrow of Slaying/Critical Shot, only more often then not because it takes away the cooldown effect of those two abilities -- whether that's good or ill depends on a player's perspective.

Melee Archer is somewhat inherent to all Archers, from what I can recall of DAII's gameplay. Considering the drastic differences in animations and talents between the party and the enemies, it's hard to really say. And the inherent ability could be due to just that. Some mook flinging his sword at the pace of a snail is hardly going to upset your animation.

So really, the only things gone are Scattershot, Arrow Time, Suppressing Fire, Shattering Shot, Defensive Fire, and Crippling Shot.

They may not all be in the same tree now, but a fair deal of the abilities are still there if you look for them. Only six are truly missing. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2013 - 01:04 .

[LPPrince]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

New abilities?  Meh, how about they bring back the *dozen*  from Origins/Awakening   that they shamelessly got rid of for DA2.

Not really. They just moved some of them to other trees. Rapid Shot is now Speed. Accuracy is now... Precision. I'd argue that taking Blindside is the equivalent of Arrow of Slaying/Critical Shot, only more often then not because it takes away the cooldown effect -- whether that's good or ill depends on a player's perspective.

Melee Archer is somewhat inherent to all Archers, from what I can recall of DAII's gameplay. Considering the drastic differences in animations and talents between the party and the enemies, it's hard to really say.

So really, the only things gone are Scattershot, Arrow Time, Suppressing Fire, Shattering Shot, and Crippling Shot.

They may not all be in the same tree now, but the abilities are still there if you look for them.

I was just watching some Archery World Cup videos and just pictured one of them using Scattershot. HAH

Man, I'd know more about where DAO's archery stuff went if I actually used it back then.

[Poison_Berrie]

I don't know about adding darts or slings.
I'd keep it at Short/Long/Crossbow to keep it a bit more simple and allow them to focus their attention on making them function differently.

[LPPrince]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

I don't know about adding darts or slings.
I'd keep it at Short/Long/Crossbow to keep it a bit more simple and allow them to focus their attention on making them function differently.

Agreed.

[LPPrince]

If archery was slowed down from how fast it was in DA2, I wonder if a "dagger technique" sort of rapid fire archery skill could be included.

[SparksMKII]

LPPrince wrote...

If archery was slowed down from how fast it was in DA2, I wonder if a "dagger technique" sort of rapid fire archery skill could be included.

DA:O had a sustained rapid firing skill, downside was that you couldn't get critical hits anymore if you used it tho.

[LPPrince]

I'd welcome that back with open arms.

[Fredward]

I didn't even notice that bowstrings were missing. Now that I've noticed [meaning someone pointed it out] it's all I can see.

THROW DEM POINTY STICKS! Of death. XD

[LPPrince]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I didn't even notice that bowstrings were missing. Now that I've noticed [meaning someone pointed it out] it's all I can see.

THROW DEM POINTY STICKS! Of death. XD

R.I.P. Bowstrings

Modifié par LPPrince, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:28 .

[LPPrince]

But seriously, ever since I made this thread and put that picture up of Sebastian firing his bow with no bowstring, the lack of bowstrings has irked me more and more. It looks godawful, especially considering the other games I've played recently that did have bowstrings, like-

Amalur-



Skyrim-



etc etc etc

I'm sure others have more examples

[Yrkoon]

Every game I've ever played that has had bows, has had bowstrings. Except bioware games. For some unexplainable personal reason, bow strings are a no-go at Bioware. Been that way  since Baldurs Gate 1. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 janvier 2013 - 03:41 .

[LPPrince]

I feel like I'm forgetting some other game that has not had bowstrings on their bows. But whatever.

I hope Bioware finally gets with the times insofar as the bowstrings go.

[LPPrince]

jlb524 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

When your archer readies an arrow, the very air itself solidifies, ever so briefly, to act as a bow string. Thus do the arrows fly straight and true. It just happens faster than the eye can discern.

I think that's the Maker's doing. He hasn't actually forsaken the land; he's just too busy creating divine bow strings to answer any prayers.

OH THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!

[happy_daiz]

I've become disheartened by the 'set' character classes in DA. Why do I have to bring a rogue with me to open locks? That's ridiculous; anyone should be able to learn the skill. It's picking a lock, not doing backflips or casting spells.

Same thing with archery. In Skyrim, and heck, now even Far Cry 3 (a shooter!), I use a bow, along with my other weapons. Always. It's my *own* play style, and I mix it up liberally.

I think BioWare has a tendency to forget that we, the players, can make up our own minds how we want to play. They just don't give us the freedom to do it.

And boo to no bow strings.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 17 janvier 2013 - 02:59 .

[LPPrince]

I love you right now, Mrs. Saving This Thread From 15 Hours Ago Last Posting

ANYWAY-

I doubt Bioware will ever allow a "Create-Your-Own-class" system like Skyrim, as it may interfere with lore as far as mages and magic/mana goes.

[LPPrince]

Unless...

At the start of the game you choose Mage or Non-Mage, and then you're free to choose whatever you want from within those pools.

But then that would stop mages from doing anything else besides magic, so thats lame. Nevermind.

Arcane Archers, come on down.

[happy_daiz]

Wasn't that a class in Dragon's Dogma? I made my pawn (Iorveth) one, and he kicked some serious arse.

I'd totally love to see that.

Edit: The class was called Magick Archer.

I'm not seeing a bow string here, though...

Modifié par happy_daiz, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:03 .