89 réponses à ce sujet

[LegionofRannoch]

Cyonan wrote...

Deerber wrote...
Why am I guessing that incendiary are even more bugged than everyone thinks? 

It's related to rate of fire, and up now(i was right about it not being visual) =P

LegionofRannoch wrote...

can the enemies just stop in their place and do nothing during extraction? cuz it happend to me..

solo /cerberus/silver/ghost/, shadow with black widow.

nothing moved until i shot at a phantom in view during the last 5 seconds.

I've noticed that the enemy AI can occasionally just break and they'll do nothing.

Shooting them tends to fix this =P

I've had this happen a few times immediately after enemies spawned but before they came onto the map, resulting in me being on an empty map with no enemies.

thanks

also did you know you can shdow strike into one of the spawn boxes if an enemy decides to fly back in there?

[Cyonan]

LegionofRannoch wrote...

thanks

also did you know you can shdow strike into one of the spawn boxes if an enemy decides to fly back in there?

*snip*

I actually once got on the ledge below the launch pad on Firebase White where enemies spawn.

Though I didn't take a picture.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

 Just sort of reflecting on what Computron and Cyonan have said.

Would the timing of the 3 second cycle create a sort of random window (in practical terms) of opportunity for Tactical Cloak to shed enemies targeting you?

I mean, would the timing of your actions vary in effect based on their relationship to when in the targeting cycle they occured.

Sometimes "dropping agro", while other times continuing to draw fire.

It seems like it might explain a lot of percieved disparity.

[LegionofRannoch]

Cyonan wrote...

LegionofRannoch wrote...

thanks

also did you know you can shdow strike into one of the spawn boxes if an enemy decides to fly back in there?

*snip*

I actually once got on the ledge below the launch pad on Firebase White where enemies spawn.

Though I didn't take a picture.

did you just fall off?

i fell off the ledge on glacier in the landing area where the enemies spawn.

my shadow is a traveler

[Cyonan]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

 Just sort of reflecting on what Computron and Cyonan have said.

Would the timing of the 3 second cycle create a sort of random window (in practical terms) of opportunity for Tactical Cloak to shed enemies targeting you?

I mean, would the timing of your actions vary in effect based on their relationship to when in the targeting cycle they occured.

Sometimes "dropping agro", while other times continuing to draw fire.

It seems like it might explain a lot of percieved disparity.

If you're doing something that'll cause the enemy to see you, then they'll most likely not stop shooting you(or it'll be the same chance as if you weren't cloaked). For a damage spec Infiltrator this is going to mean much of your cloak's invisiblity has been wasted since that only lasts 5.2 seconds.

On my duration spec Infiltrator I was able to reliably get an Assault Trooper to stop shooting me 100% of the time by moving away from him for a few seconds. Even with no other players in the game, the Assault Trooper would fire at the spot where I was when his re-targeting cycle kicked in.

LegionofRannoch wrote...
did you just fall off?

i fell off the ledge on glacier in the landing area where the enemies spawn.

my shadow is a traveler

I was on my Human Vanguard. I believe I charged something as it was flying up then fell down.

Modifié par Cyonan, 13 janvier 2013 - 08:38 .

[spudspot]

But Cyonan, you said everybody was wrong. I wasn't. 

Modifié par spudspot, 13 janvier 2013 - 09:14 .

[sandboxgod]

 Thread needs to be stickied

[holdenagincourt]

Cyonan wrote...

"Tactical Cloak drops aggro" - The way invisibility works is a bit strange, but when you cloak the following happens:

> Enemies will continue to shoot/run at the spot where you cloaked. If you don't move you'll keep getting shot(but they will not have spotted you yet)

I skimmed down through the thread, and saw that you had done some more testing following Computron's comment, but along those lines I think you should expound on this in case people are confused about how this actually works.

If an enemy is already in the middle of burst fire, melee targeting or another attack animation, they will continue this once you cloak based on your positioning (and update based on the sounds you make, e.g. footsteps, devices, powers, weapons, or by peeking if newly from spawn or if there are no other players targetable). This is where the "Tactical Cloak isn't making me invisible, :crying:" talk comes from.

If an enemy is "looking" at you--e.g. approaching you, or heading to cover away from your fire, or moving to a more advantageous position to attack you--but has not begun an attack animation, it will turn away and look at another player within a second or so of you engaging cloak. This is TC working as intended and forcing a targeting switch to another player.

I assume this is what you're referring to by targeting cycle in your exchange with Computron, but it might deserve clarification in the OP. Unless enemies have begun an attack animation, they will indeed switch targets when you cloak. This is easily reproducible in-game. While AI mechanics don't work off of a formal aggro table, this could be informally labelled dumping aggro, as TC causes a targeting switch so long as 1) the enemy has not started an attack animation, 2) the infiltrator is not in hearing range, 3) there is another targetable player on the field.

[Cyonan]

holdenagincourt wrote...
I skimmed down through the thread, and saw that you had done some more testing following Computron's comment, but along those lines I think you should expound on this in case people are confused about how this actually works.

If an enemy is already in the middle of burst fire, melee targeting or another attack animation, they will continue this once you cloak based on your positioning (and update based on the sounds you make, e.g. footsteps, devices, powers, weapons, or by peeking if newly from spawn or if there are no other players targetable). This is where the "Tactical Cloak isn't making me invisible, :crying:" talk comes from.

If an enemy is "looking" at you--e.g. approaching you, or heading to cover away from your fire, or moving to a more advantageous position to attack you--but has not begun an attack animation, it will turn away and look at another player within a second or so of you engaging cloak. This is TC working as intended and forcing a targeting switch to another player.

I assume this is what you're referring to by targeting cycle in your exchange with Computron, but it might deserve clarification in the OP. Unless enemies have begun an attack animation, they will indeed switch targets when you cloak. This is easily reproducible in-game. While AI mechanics don't work off of a formal aggro table, this could be informally labelled dumping aggro, as TC causes a targeting switch so long as 1) the enemy has not started an attack animation, 2) the infiltrator is not in hearing range, 3) there is another targetable player on the field.

This is mostly the re-targeting cycles.

Every 3 or so seconds the enemy will re-aquire their target, or just target something new if they can't see their old target anymore.

If they have no targets because the last one alive went invisible, they will fire at the spot where the player was when the re-targeting cycle occured.

I added a thing to the OP about enemies still tracking you till the next re-targeting cycle if they were already mid-attack on you.

[UnknownMercenary]

So the duration nerf did do something substantial. I mainly play for damage anyway, with cloaking to escape being a panic function that I don't like to use often because it forces cloak into its maximum cooldown.

Would 3 infiltrators and one non-infiltrator force the enemies to re-cycle targets until they just attack the non-infiltrator? People post about no aggro dumping happening but it's still pretty painful to be the non-infiltrator in those lobbies.

[Deitar]

One thing: I believe Shadow is not affected by 1sec cloak delay, it drops the instant you shoot, from my experience

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Deerber wrote...

 

Dunvi wrote...
Cyonan, have I told you that I love you?

Ok I'm a guy, and if I'm not wrong Dunvi is a girl so she's entitled to say that, but... Does it feel wrong if I say the same? 

Ok seriously, thank you for taking the time to write this. It's the kind of post that should be more around: precise, concise, informative. What else can one wish for? 

My thoughts exactly...

[Cyonan]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

So the duration nerf did do something substantial. I mainly play for damage anyway, with cloaking to escape being a panic function that I don't like to use often because it forces cloak into its maximum cooldown.

Would 3 infiltrators and one non-infiltrator force the enemies to re-cycle targets until they just attack the non-infiltrator? People post about no aggro dumping happening but it's still pretty painful to be the non-infiltrator in those lobbies.

If all 3 Infiltrators cloaked at the same time and the other player was visible, the enemy would all end up switching to the visible player next re-target cycle, which is of course why it's so painful to be the only non-Infiltrator.

Even if only 2 cloaked at once, that becomes essentially a 50% chance of being targeted, instead of a 25%(unless enemies target based on something other than if the target is visible, but that's next to impossible to tell).

[Jebel Krong]

Annomander wrote...

Cyonan, though we disagree on many things in regards to tactical cloak, thank you for taking time to show people that if they exploit the enemy aggro mechanics, tactical cloak CAN be used for dumping aggro.

Many people of course do this completely unwittingly; then come to BSN and deny TC's ability to be used as an aggro dump.

funny thing though: the "re-target cycle" cyonan mentioned lasts about as long as a damage specced cloak... meaning that you won't dump aggro. You can technically "dump aggro" if you want to call it that without cloak: break LOS, run past a team mate etc. Same game mechanics as discussed in this very thread. Guess you're going to have to try harder...

[BridgeBurner]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Cyonan, though we disagree on many things in regards to tactical cloak, thank you for taking time to show people that if they exploit the enemy aggro mechanics, tactical cloak CAN be used for dumping aggro.

Many people of course do this completely unwittingly; then come to BSN and deny TC's ability to be used as an aggro dump.

funny thing though: the "re-target cycle" cyonan mentioned lasts about as long as a damage specced cloak... meaning that you won't dump aggro. You can technically "dump aggro" if you want to call it that without cloak: break LOS, run past a team mate etc. Same game mechanics as discussed in this very thread. Guess you're going to have to try harder...

Play vorcha engineer in a lobby of 3 infiltrators.

Enjoy having everything on the map shooting at you at once.

[holdenagincourt]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Cyonan, though we disagree on many things in regards to tactical cloak, thank you for taking time to show people that if they exploit the enemy aggro mechanics, tactical cloak CAN be used for dumping aggro.

Many people of course do this completely unwittingly; then come to BSN and deny TC's ability to be used as an aggro dump.

funny thing though: the "re-target cycle" cyonan mentioned lasts about as long as a damage specced cloak... meaning that you won't dump aggro. You can technically "dump aggro" if you want to call it that without cloak: break LOS, run past a team mate etc. Same game mechanics as discussed in this very thread. Guess you're going to have to try harder...

Except enemies dynamically reassess their targeting priorities in each cycle. Infiltrators have a larger range of choices than other classes because "stealth" enters the enemy targeting table and no other class has stealth (random Volus cloak that lasts for a few seconds notwithstanding). Manipulating the "range," "perception," "old target" and "firing arc" factors is also easier with TC, for obvious reasons.

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Targetting is based on a whole mess of factors - there is no "aggro" system. Enemies will evaluate all the possible targets periodically (every second or so) and select the best one, if a different target is better (if they think they'd have a better chance of killing the other target), they'll often switch... though they do like to keep their current target if they're fairly close in terms of value.

Example Target Weight Factors:
* Range
* Stealth
* Old Target
* Player vs Henchman
* Perception
* "Good" firing arcs
* etc.

[Ramsutin]

[heybigmoney]

Just arguing semantics at this point. While not technically "aggro dump" in the literal sense, TC absolutely makes a large difference in your deprioritization as a target from enemies. The stealth mechanics do work, average players just don't know WHEN they are working, and are a large part of why ppl play infiltrators aside from dmg boost whether they realize it or not.

[hawkera_prime]

good to know about my QFI+Indra

[BjornDaDwarf]

Bump and thanks, for being the single most reasonable thread on TC that I have ever seen. Well done sir.

[Catastrophy]

Regarding the detection under cloak:

Whether the character runs or walks make a big difference in the detection range.

Based on Shadow experience in close up encounters:
If the character walks close to a enemy under coak, you'll notice they "sense" you. (They hear).

They do not really see the character as you can tell from their behaviour:
They WILL happily spray the position where you're at, resulting often in a hit or even takedown because of the close proximity. However, if you sidestep and evade *slowly* you can often see them spinning around wildly and even shooting at the ceiling, which is quite hilarious.

[sobit]

let's do this.

"TC ignores weapon weight." Well of course you get still a huge cooldown when actually staying in cloak, but if you only use the cloak for the damage boost, i.e. breaking it right away, you'll always get the three second cooldown. But if you insist, I'll phrase it differently: "TC can be used such that weapon weight doesn't matter."

"The minimum cooldown on TC is actually 4 seconds." Seriously? Because, like, the duration in which you get the damage boost is part of the cooldown? Oh right, then MM has about a ten second cooldown, cause it takes ten seconds after you activate it and start shooting until it is ready again. Sorry but I can't take that part seriously.

"TC drops aggro." It might not always work, it surely doesn't work properly, but you sure as hell get to feel how and when it works when playing as a non infiltrator with three infiltrators in a team. Sudden barrage from everywhere.

"TC is responsible for the HM ans SP nerf..." ...effectively weakening the GE and Havoc a LOT, while making the infiltrator counterparts with that power only slighlty weaker. And this will happen as long as infiltrators share powers with non infiltrators.

I remain at my position, something about TC has to change. But there are too many things about the MP that need to change and I have long lost any hope for any real fix whatsoever.

[Amusingthree93]

Cyonan, how did you work out the cloak aggro mechanics?

[Cyonan]

Amusingthree93 wrote...

Cyonan, how did you work out the cloak aggro mechanics?

Mostly testing in-game.

Brenon Holmes' had a post a while ago about how enemies will choose their targets which greatly helped me as well.