347 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexWk31]

I'd love to see more same-gender relationships. I love Herren and Wade, Hespith and Branka. They made the world more believable! I'd like to see a prominent npc who is lgbt strictly, not based on the pc's gender like Cyril (from MOTA DLC) or Anders. Not that I didn't enjoy it .

[AlexanderCousland]

Sutekhek wrote...

I don't think they should be represented equally in a world where they aren't equal (in quantity). I don't think anybody asked for that either. What I want is an accurate image of the society I'm playing in. If there are s/s couples and if they don't need to hide, then I want to see that too, because it tells me more about the world and it makes it more tangible.

I also don't agree with the OP that they weren't represented at all in DAO or DA2. They were. They're also clearly represented in the books (esp. The Calling), so we know they exist, and how they are received. But it would be nice to see more personal conversations between NPC than "I've seen a mudcrab today" or the Thedas equivalent. If we have more personal conversations and / or little glimpses into NPCs's life, it would also be nice to see some s/s content among other things.

You have that in TV shows and movies more and more. Some secondary character is a lesbian. Some not so secondary is gay, or bi, or a trans* person. That's nothing, just something in passing, but that's nice. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden, each and every character is LGBT, and nobody asks for that.

Don't worry, unless you actually play Gaydom Age, you won't ever see a game where your sexual orientation isn't represented at all. You will still have recognition. That is in no way endangered. You're not threatened. Not now, not tomorrow, not in a million years. So if seeing gay couples really doesn't bother you, you should be fine with a little demonstration, yeah?

I've seen Gay couple' s and Im positive I will continue to see them, and no it doesnt bother me. The thought of the sexual act itself is disgusting for both sex' s, but as Ive said, IMO your sexual orientation does not define your character as a human. What I have a problem with is people requesting for things as if they've been slighted, Background hand holding, Smooches on the Lip' s, Mentions of Wedding' s.....when has this been done in the game at all, for anyone? 

[LPPrince]

What you have a problem with is someone else's motivations for wanting something in a game.

Relax, don't worry about why someone wants something you may or may not want yourself, especially since it hurts no one at any point.

There is no difference between this and me in my archery thread asking for archery finishers except for the fact that this surprisingly is easier to implement. You don't see anyone coming into that thread asking me why I want them in the game, or saying they have a problem with me wanting them in the game, acting as if archers have been slighted.

Just let it go already. People have differing opinions, thats how the world works, and its beautiful for it.

[Sutekh]

FreshIstay wrote...

I've seen Gay couple' s and Im positive I will continue to see them, and no it doesnt bother me. The thought of the sexual act itself is disgusting for both sex' s

"Disgusting" isn't the word I'd use (more like "embarrassing"), but stumbling upon that is only justified if the settings or the plot calls for it. If a society is very permissive about that, or if a culture is very demonstrative, I'd have no problem, no matter the genders involved.

but as Ive said, IMO your sexual orientation does not define your character as a human.

It's part of it. For some people a big one, for others something vaguely in the background. Depends on individuals, and you can't make a blanket statement like that. Really, you can't. To take things to the extreme, would you say that Don Juan's sexual orientation isn't part of his personality? Or Henry VIII? Michaelangelo? Freddy Mercury?

What I have a problem with is people requesting for things as if they've been slighted, Background hand holding, Smooches on the Lip' s, Mentions of Wedding' s.....when has this been done in the game at all, for anyone? 

It hasn't, and that's exactly why people are asking for it. Background hand holding and smooches aren't likely to happen because of the technical problems (animation), but I fail to see what's so bad about people mentioning an upcoming wedding. I'd be surprised to see s/s couples doing so, because s/s marriage doesn't seem to legally exist in Thedas, unless it does where we are (Orlais, or wherever the Inquisitor will live their merry adventures). NPC ambiant dialogues or conversations with the PC giving relationship clues would be fine. It can be done without being invasive, and for any orientation. Having some of those hinting at s/s isn't bad, unless [general] you are a raging bigot who can't stand the very mention of it. It gives us more info about the world by showing and not telling, and I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It isn't a political statement, or part of some agenda of the Invaders from Planet Gay or something. It's just asking for more substance to the world we play in, and more accuracy re: the stance of said world / country / culture about the whole thing.

--

Emzamination wrote...

Requesting elaboration on the underlined.

You've been given many examples by many people already of evident s/s relationships in both DAO and DA2. The more explicit one being Branka / Helspith, since it's stated very clearly, by Oghren, Helspith and Branka. Wade / Herren is also very clear to me as is Leliana / Marjolaine. Anders / Karl is too, but I'll give you a female Hawke can't know it (which doesn't make it non-existent). Denying they exist because you don't see them in action, or they aren't clearly spelled out, would be the same as saying Cailan and Anora weren't in a true relationship (as opposed to arranged-married) because you never see them together (in a tree, kiiiiissing).

I'm all for more hints and clues, but not everything needs to be hammered down and blatant to be true.

[AlexanderCousland]

LPPrince wrote...

What you have a problem with is someone else's motivations for wanting something in a game.

Relax, don't worry about why someone wants something you may or may not want yourself, especially since it hurts no one at any point.

There is no difference between this and me in my archery thread asking for archery finishers except for the fact that this surprisingly is easier to implement. You don't see anyone coming into that thread asking me why I want them in the game, or saying they have a problem with me wanting them in the game, acting as if archers have been slighted.

Just let it go already. People have differing opinions, thats how the world works, and its beautiful for it.

Im not trying to prevent anything (as if i could), Im trying to understand it, this type of request should consider all sexual orientations because whats been requested hasnt been done at all, It shouldnt be limited to one group. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 14 janvier 2013 - 10:43 .

[Gazardiel]

Hooray for being back on topic!

Although in terms of resources, it wouldn't be any more costly/difficult to include s/s couples in the background, it could require more careful scripting and setting up because there is a tendency to see f/m couples as romantically involved (even if they're not) and s/s couples as non-romantic. So while you could have a f/m couple standing closely together and conversing happily to imply a pairing, the same would not be so apparent for a s/s couple.

However, if you can leverage specific cues, whether of a location or of objects/attire (like wedding bands, though on BW claw-hands that presents a whole other aesthetic problem) then it is easier to subtly communicate that status. But the downside is that it could look more forced (and thus provoke the ire of those offended at the mere existence of "teh ghey").

One example I think of is in Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica where in one of the last episodes he shot scenes inside an omnisexual strip club. In his commentary, he said that he intentionally filmed all combinations - f/f, m/m, f/m, m/f - but in editing all male strippers were cut out and most female patrons were cut as well, making his attempt at variety look very heteronormative. In this type of setting, it is easy to imply different sexualities without much work because we already know there is sexual communication happening.

I'd rather not have all s/s background NPCs hang out at the brothel, so while I can't speak for others, I think it would be reasonable to hope for a variety of background NPC setups - a few more obvious ("Are you sure your parents are okay with me? The wedding is next week!") and some more subtle and/or ambiguous ("We'll buy the whole pig for dinner tonight.") to allow for open interpretations (followed by a few Word of God blog/twitter responses to fan questions). It would take a little more creativity on the writing, but I would hope it would be an interesting challenge.

[whykikyouwhy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Im not trying to prevent anything (as if i could), Im trying to understand it, this type of request should consider all sexual orientations because whats been requested hasnt been done at all, It shouldnt be limited to one group. 

I don't see where anyone has been saying "these scenes/interactions/dialogue/etc should be available, and only for s/s relationships." 

What folks have been commenting on is that heterosexual relationships are more apparent and obvious within the game, and that it would be nice to see/hear more about s/s couples. There have been s/s NPC couples seen or mentioned in the DA-verse, yes (Leliana & Marjolaine, Branka & Hespith, Anders & Karl, etc). What I've been reading here, and in other threads, is that people would like to see/hear more of that - they would like to see such couples in the background scenes a bit more, or interact with them and have dialogue/banter that makes mention of the relationship. Not because that's some mandate of behavior - not because they think everyone should wear some sign indicating who they are, but merely as a way to make the world more nuanced.

Earlier, you posted this (in part):

FreshIstay wrote...

 What I have a problem with is people requesting for things as if they've been slighted, Background hand holding, Smooches on the Lip' s, Mentions of Wedding' s.....when has this been done in the game at all, for anyone? 

People aren't requesting these things because they have been slighted. They feel these things are important to their game experience. These forums are filled with threads about options players would like to have in future games, things they would like to see. 

Perhaps you are reading the reasoning behind their stance as having the tone of being slighted - but really, what I'm seeing are players explaining, quite soundly, why they think something would have value. It's not necessary that everyone agree with the points and requests being made, but nor should their opinions be dismissed as something wrong, or far-fetched, or as some sort of desire to be indulged. We all have different aspects and features we'd like to see in the game. We share the common bond of enjoying the game, but have different approaches to how we want to play.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 14 janvier 2013 - 11:05 .

[LPPrince]

Goddamn it you have no idea how much I hate Bioware character hands. DA2 had it at the absolute worst. Eww. Skeletal disgusting things they were.

[AlexanderCousland]

Sutekh wrote...

"Disgusting" isn't the word I'd use (more like "embarrassing"), but stumbling upon that is only justified if the settings or the plot calls for it. If a society is very permissive about that, or if a culture is very demonstrative, I'd have no problem, no matter the genders involved.


It's part of it. For some people a big one, for others something vaguely in the background. Depends on individuals, and you can't make a blanket statement like that. Really, you can't. To take things to the extreme, would you say that Don Juan's sexual orientation isn't part of his personality? Or Henry VIII? Michaelangelo? Freddy Mercury?

Nope, Disgusting, thats the word that describes my personal feeling towards the thought of the physical act.
But Hey, Bioware has shown they like to play on feelings, so I wouldnt mind a twist like that because it' s generally those "WTF" moments, that make games worth playing. Like when Anders blows the Chantry, (different scale i know, but a s/s npc sex scene would probably do that for people) 

Those Men, it' s what people perceive about them sexually that makes them legend, not their sexuality in itself as it relate' s to their Character as Human' s. (Sweet, Kind, Outgoing, Empathetic, Generous etc..) 

In highschool, I lost my virginity to a young woman. She then told her friends i was "gifted", and sure enough they started inquiring about my "gift" and at the end of my highscool years I had been with multiple partner' s.  My sex  life doesnt define me or my character as a Human. How my sex life was perceived by other people defined me in their own head. 

[AlexanderCousland]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
*snip*

let me be very clear, nobody is wrong for requesting anything they want to see on the forums.  

[Gazardiel]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

People aren't requesting these things because they have been slighted. They feel these things are important to their game experience. These forums are filled with threads about options players would like to have in future games, things they would like to see. 

Perhaps you are reading the reasoning behind their stance as having the tone of being slighted - but really, what I'm seeing are players explaining, quite soundly, why they think something would have value. It's not necessary that everyone agree with the points and requests being made, but nor should their opinions be dismissed as something wrong, or far-fetched, or as some sort of desire to be indulged. We all have different aspects and features we'd like to see in the game. We share the common bond of enjoying the game, but have different approaches to how we want to play.

I'd like to add another angle to this (great clarification) comment.  We are shaped by our media even as we shape it - so what we see on TV, in movies, and in games contributes to our sense of what is "normal".  This is part of why diversity in media representations is a good thing, rather than having the same monotonous ideas of beauty, power, and culture reiterated over and over: it makes us more creative and open-minded and appreciative of difference.  And having passive background "noise" that is slightly different from what we're used to seeing makes a big positive difference - look at car commercials, for example. 

Until recently, most couples portrayed in those were heterosexual and homoethnic (same ethnicity).  But every now and then one will come up that shows a mixed ethnicity couple, or even a gay couple shopping for the car and driving together.  Most people won't actively notice it, but it's a huge shift.  As someone of multiethnic descent, it was a strange feeling to see something I hadn't realized was missing, so I can only imagine how powerful it is to LGBTQ people to get to see LGBTQ representations in a game that are just there - not to be interacted with, not a commentary, but just part of the normal peoplescape.  And if it inspires discussion and questioning of prior perspectives, all the better - that's good media to me.

[Sutekh]

FreshIstay wrote...

Those Men, it' s what people perceive about them sexually that makes them legend, not their sexuality in itself as it relate' s to their Character as Human' s. (Sweet, Kind, Outgoing, Empathetic, Generous etc..)

Not only, no. Michaelangelo's David would have looked very different if the man didn't love the male body so much. Don Juan's story and motivations would have been different too without his sex drive, his love / contempt relationship with women and his desire to conquer them and add them to his catalog. It wouldn't have worked the same with men at all. I could cite other artists whose sexual orientation is essential to their creation (Sacha Guitry, Jean Cocteau), and I do consider an artist's creation as part of his personality. Not mentioning the fact that being part of a minority do impact your interaction with the world and can change your basic core personality, as can being part of a privileged majority. It's complex.

I agree that which gender(s) you desire isn't what define your level of empathy or the state of your anger management, but those things aren't all that makes someone who and what they are, and how you experience your orientation can very much impact them.

But personality isn't really the point when it comes to ambiant or very secondary NPCs, anyway. S/s hints and such - the way they are displayed and generally perceived - tell more about the world and society as a whole than individuals characterization. Asking for more representation in a world that doesn't forbid s/s relationships isn't asking to be catered to (or any other political reason), but for more accuracy and consistency. Just don't avoid them for fear of angering the bigoted wing of the fanbase.

Same goes with anything. I expect to see women fighting and ruling in Thedas or Tamriel. I would be very taken aback to see the same in Westeros, despite the fact I'm a woman and I loathe misogyny.

[Emzamination]

Sutekh wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Requesting elaboration on the underlined.

You've been given many examples by many people already of evident s/s relationships in both DAO and DA2. The more explicit one being Branka / Helspith, since it's stated very clearly, by Oghren, Helspith and Branka. Wade / Herren is also very clear to me as is Leliana / Marjolaine. Anders / Karl is too, but I'll give you a female Hawke can't know it (which doesn't make it non-existent). Denying they exist because you don't see them in action, or they aren't clearly spelled out, would be the same as saying Cailan and Anora weren't in a true relationship (as opposed to arranged-married) because you never see them together (in a tree, kiiiiissing).

I'm all for more hints and clues, but not everything needs to be hammered down and blatant to be true.

Context of this thread - s/s relationships displayed visually in-game, equal to hetero relationships.

Examples of hetero relationships -

Dragon age origins

Npc dwarf couple in the diamond quarter arguing over the quality of armor during the dwarf noble origin.

Cammen & gheyna

Bryce & Eleanor cousland

Fergus & oriana

Lilly & jowan

Eamon & Isolde

Pyral Harrowmont & tercy

Bhelen & rica

Dilwyn & Gethon

Nessa's father & mother

Man & wife 0:00 - 0:17

______________________

Dragon age 2

Yevhen and Dera

The de Launcet's

____________________

What you've given me

Branka & Hespith : A years old textual affair the warden can read about, that has since ended before the events of origins.

*Wade & Herren : Refer to my post here. The relationship between these two is indiscernible without dev acknowledgement. Please tell me what hinted at them being in a relationship, and I'll retract my statement. Oh and I had a feeling is not a valid answer, if you tell me so, I'll assume you're acting off meta-knowledge.

And Idk why but I feel I should note: I'm not saying they aren't a gay couple. Wade & herren are a fine example post- acknowledgement.

Lillian & marjolaine :  Lilliana & marjolaine aren't in a relationship during origins.

Anders & Karl : Relationship is player-centric and requires certain criteria for it to be revealed for a male, and is purely metagame knowledge regarding a female. You have zero evidence this relationship existed in a femhawke reality, besides it could've happened. How do you know Anders & Karl having a relationship wasn't tailored to a male specific game to make a gay male hawke more comfortable? most of everyone elses sexuality is player centric, why not theirs?

Also your comparison of cailan & anora to anders & karl is just silly. No matter how you play origins, the existence of cailan & anoras relationship is clearly defined, where as if one never rolls a male hawke, they could go the entire series never knowing that Anders & karl might of had a relationship.

____________________

Over-all, you've given me one valid couple within the context of this thread and others who have been in past gay relationships. My stance stands that gay couples (not people who happen to be gay) are not being represented as equally in game as hetero couples. Anyone who objects is welcomed to challenge and prove me wrong.

Modifié par Emzamination, 14 janvier 2013 - 03:36 .

[LPPrince]

I'll be honest- I played nothing but a FemHawke, and I thought Karl and Anders were just friends until I looked it up.

But anyway, that should have no bearing on random NPCs being a little more romantic, both hetero and homosexual. I think it should happen regardless of Bioware's track record.

[Emzamination]

LPPrince wrote...

I'll be honest- I played nothing but a FemHawke, and I thought Karl and Anders were just friends until I looked it up.

But anyway, that should have no bearing on random NPCs being a little more romantic, both hetero and homosexual. I think it should happen regardless of Bioware's track record.

Agreed

[Sutekh]

Emzamination wrote...

What you've given me

Branka & Hespith : A years old textual affair the warden can read about, that has since ended before the events of origins.

Not years old and certainly not textual only (where do you get that from?). We learn of it from the very mouth of Hespith, then Branka, then Oghren who makes multiple allusions to it (and not always in good taste).

*Wade & Herren : Refer to my post here. The relationship between these two is indiscernible without dev acknowledgement. Please tell me what hinted at them being in a relationship, and I'll retract my statement. Oh and I had a feeling is not a valid answer, if you tell me so, I'll assume you're acting off meta-knowledge.

The first time I ever stumbled on Wade and Herren, I had yet to open a wiki page or read this forum or anything meta-ish for that matter. I like my first playthroughs as virgin as possible. It made no doubts for me, in my personal interpretation, that they were a couple. Do not assume. Ever. (Maker, I hate that so, so much). The fact that you didn't see them as such doesn't prove you right. And, yes, according to Word of Gaider, it actually proves you wrong, but that's neither here nor there.

Edit to Add: And to answer your question, what hinted at them being a couple was the very dynamic. There was a very strong old couple vibe there, with both exasperation and a quality of affection and grumpy tenderness (both in tone and words, and especially from Herren) that screamed that to me. It was even made stronger when you see them again in Awakening.

<snip>

Lillian & marjolaine :  Lilliana & marjolaine aren't in a relationship during origins.

When the relationship occurs is not that important, representation-wise. The way Leliana talks about it (quite freely, actually) is. 

Anders & Karl : Relationship is player-centric and requires certain criteria for it to be revealed for a male, and is purely metagame knowledge regarding a female. You have zero evidence this relationship existed in a femhawke reality, besides it could've happened. How do you know Anders & Karl having a relationship wasn't tailored to a male specific game to make a gay male hawke more comfortable? most of everyone elses sexuality is player centric, why not theirs?

I gave you that one, did I not? But I strongly disagree that this is a Shrödinger thing where Anders/Karl only exists in a male playthrough. The info is just irrelevant in a female one. If you take DAO and the multiple origins, there's lot of knowledge that's only available to such and such. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that your PC either doesn't need to know (it's irrelevant) or can't know (it's inconsistent). In Anders/Karl's case why on earth would Anders talk about his experience with a man while he's hitting on a woman? Wouldn't that be rather counter-productive? On the same note, I don't remember Leliana talking about the status of the elves in Orlais to any of my non-elves PC. Does that mean that if I play a human, elves in Orlais are treated differently than if I play an elf? Or that there aren't any elf in Orlais?

Also your comparison of cailan & anora to anders & karl is just silly. No matter how you play origins, the existence of cailan & anoras relationship is clearly defined, where as if one never rolls a male hawke, they could go the entire series never knowing that Anders & karl might of had a relationship.

No. What's clearly defined is that they are married to each other. Nothing is clearly defined about affection, love or even sexual life. Could be a platonic arranged marriage for all you know. You get those info by speaking to Anora before the Landsmeet, and even then, you really have to pay attention.

Plus you missed my point. I was only saying that things do not need to be absolutely blatant to exist.

____________________

Over-all, you've given me one valid couple within the context of this thread and others who have been in past gay relationships. My stance stands that gay couples (not people who happen to be gay) are not being represented as equally in game as hetero couples. Anyone who objects is welcomed to challenge and prove me wrong.

If by equally you mean in the same quantity, then they shouldn't be. As tolerant as Thedas seems to be (and then again, it probably varies from one country to another - the dwarves, for instance, didn't seem particularly fond of it), heterosexuality still seems to be the "norm", or, at least, the majority (there might be lots of bi among them, we'll never know). Having an equal amount of s/s and o/s wouldn't make sense in the Thedas societies we've seen so far.

If you're saying that s/s should have the same representation qualitatively (i.e. no matter the ratio, when there's s/s don't shy away from it, and let's have dialogues and such), then we actually agree. We just disagree that there weren't any in DAO or DA2 at all.

Modifié par Sutekh, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:42 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Getting hit on by somebody of the same gender is disgusting for me, and feels like I'm being sexually harrassed.

Modifié par sympathy4sarenreturns, 14 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[AlexJK]

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Getting hit on by somebody of the same gender is disgusting for me, and feels like I'm being sexually harrassed.

That's a shame.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

AlexJK wrote...

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Getting hit on by somebody of the same gender is disgusting for me, and feels like I'm being sexually harrassed.

That's a shame.

It's not a shame. I have support homosexuality and have friends who are. My sexual harassment is a shame?

[Sutekh]

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Getting hit on by somebody of the same gender is disgusting for me, and feels like I'm being sexually harrassed.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[Xiomara]

Sutekh wrote...

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Getting hit on by somebody of the same gender is disgusting for me, and feels like I'm being sexually harrassed.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Maybe he is talking in video game terms. If so....lol.

If he isn't....still lol.

[legbamel]

Do you feel harassed when someone of the opposite sex flirts with you? Personally I find either flattering, as long as he or she takes no for an answer.

[Emzamination]

Sutekh wrote...

Not years old and certainly not textual only (where do you get that from?). We learn of it from the very mouth of Hespith, then Branka, then Oghren who makes multiple allusions to it (and not always in good taste).

No, you read about the years old affair in a book in the deep roads and you hear that they had a relationship from hespith. The relationship has ended by the time the warden reaches hespith, as branka has abandoned her to become a broodmother. Oghren doesn't find out about the relationship till the book is read or you meet hespith together.

The first time I ever stumbled on Wade and Herren, I had yet to open a wiki page or read this forum or anything meta-ish for that matter. I like my first playthroughs as virgin as possible. It made no doubts for me, in my personal interpretation, that they were a couple. Do not assume. Ever. (Maker, I hate that so, so much). The fact that you didn't see them as such doesn't prove you right. And, yes, according to Word of Gaider, it actually proves you wrong, but that's neither here nor there.

Edit to Add: And to answer your question, what hinted at them being a couple was the very dynamic. There was a very strong old couple vibe there, with both exasperation and a quality of affection and grumpy tenderness (both in tone and words, and especially from Herren) that screamed that to me. It was even made stronger when you see them again in Awakening.

So you just had a feeling, no real certainty or tiniest hint in their dialogue? Yet you state that wade & herren were clearly a gay couple, sorry that's just not logical. No need to state 'word of gaider', of course David would know they were gay as he wrote the script. Besides I've already stated they were gay, i'm just wondering what clearly made them a gay couple without dev acknowledgement, since this thread is about lack of visual gay couples.

When the relationship occurs is not that important, representation-wise. The way Leliana talks about it (quite freely, actually) is.

Within the context of the topic, it very much so is important. The topic is about visual s/s couples in-game, not people who were in a s/s relationship at some point in the history of the dragon age universe.

I gave you that one, did I not? But I strongly disagree that this is a Shrödinger thing where Anders/Karl only exists in a male playthrough. The info is just irrelevant in a female one. If you take DAO and the multiple origins, there's lot of knowledge that's only available to such and such. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that your PC either doesn't need to know (it's irrelevant) or can't know (it's inconsistent). In Anders/Karl's case why on earth would Anders talk about his experience with a man while he's hitting on a woman? Wouldn't that be rather counter-productive? On the same note, I don't remember Leliana talking about the status of the elves in Orlais to any of my non-elves PC. Does that mean that if I play a human, elves in Orlais are treated differently than if I play an elf? Or that there aren't any elf in Orlais?

I fail to see how leliana comparing an elf warden to the elves of her home land and Anders mentioning he and karl might of had a thing are relevant to each-other in any way, but pursuing this can only take us off topic, so I'll drop it.

No. What's clearly defined is that they are married to each other. Nothing is clearly defined about affection, love or even sexual life. Could be a platonic arranged marriage for all you know. You get those info by speaking to Anora before the Landsmeet, and even then, you really have to pay attention.

Really? After leaving lothering a cut scene cues in which loghain is establishing his rule over the bannorn, fast forward a bit, Anora tell bann teagan : My father is only doing what is best / teagan replies: Did he do what was best for your husband, your majesty / Anora is left speechless in shock and dismay, subtly hinting that she' cared for cailan and she's heartbroken over her husbands death, which she acknowledges later in-game.

Plus you missed my point. I was only saying that things do not need to be absolutely blatant to exist

I'm certaintly not arguing that point. I'm just saying your examples aren't valid within the context of this thread.

If by equally you mean in the same quantity, then they shouldn't be. As tolerant as Thedas seems to be (and then again, it probably varies from one country to another - the dwarves, for instance, didn't seem particularly fond of it), heterosexuality still seems to be the "norm", or, at least, the majority (there might be lots of bi among them, we'll never know). Having an equal amount of s/s and o/s wouldn't make sense in the Thedas societies we've seen so far.

s/s relationships are viewed as odd in thedas, not restricted or illegal. Why should some peoples discomfort stop s/s couples from being represented in the public view as equally as hetero couples? That makes no sense. Beliefs and uneasyness do not dictate how many s/s couples are permitted to be seen in society.

If you're saying that s/s should have the same representation qualitatively (i.e. no matter the ratio, when there's s/s don't shy away from it, and let's have dialogues and such), then we actually agree. We just disagree that there weren't any in DAO or DA2 at all.

Yeah, one valid gay couple totally trumps the numerous hetero couples, I've listed.

[legbamel]

You're being very inconsistent. If hinting at affection between Anora and Cailan counts then why doesn't hinting at it between Wade and Herren. You keep saying that conversational references to a relationship would be enough but then you discount the examples given of just that and say that the topic is only visual affection. You have to wuit moving the goalposts just because they suit your argument in different places at different times.

It's silly to argue this in the fist place. Nearly everyone in this thread has agreed that more NPC interation, including s/s, would be great.