347 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

legbamel wrote...

You're being very inconsistent. If hinting at affection between Anora and Cailan counts then why doesn't hinting at it between Wade and Herren.

??? No one is arguing cailan and anora aren't discernable as a couple, they're clearly stated as such. I'm merely providing an answer to his statement in regards to their relationship showing no love or affection. If you can give me as clear an example of wade & herren showing that loving affection, go ahead. So far all I've got in this thread is I had a feeling and I just knew, which is little more than speculation.

You keep saying that conversational references to a relationship would be enough but then you discount the examples given of just that and say that the topic is only visual affection. You have to wuit moving the goalposts just because they suit your argument in different places at different times.

It's silly to argue this in the fist place. Nearly everyone in this thread has agreed that more NPC interation, including s/s, would be great.

Lol, I've never said that. I did however say visual s/s couples, meaning couples that exist in game, not couples that existed in some point in time. If anyone is attempting to move or alter the goal post here to suit their argument, its you.

[legbamel]

And how are they to be visually a couple if they are not showing affection?

[Emzamination]

legbamel wrote...

And how are they to be visually a couple if they are not showing affection?

Answer

[brecka]

Modifié par brecka, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:43 .

[Joy Divison]

I think it's pretty clear between the dialogue that Wade and Herren have in Origins and Awakenings that they are a couple. Overt physical acts are not the only form of affection. I didn't have a "feeling" between them, it was a conclusion based on the verbal interactions with each other.

Anders interaction with Karl also made it clear there were genuine feelings of affection and that a relationship between the two had existed at some point.

Banka and Hespith we just read about in a Codex? It's been a while since I played Origins but through my interaction with Hespith, even in her deranged state, made it clear there were very strong emotions for Branka.

The OP says Lilliana and Marjolaine aren't in a relationship during Origins, but how does that not somehow count? It is pretty explicit that they were at some point.

Regarding the background banter and the exposition that might be provided by very minor NPCs, Bioware doesn't have a sterling recent history in this regard. In DA2 they heavily recycled environments, gave us a dull Kirkwall that is static and has hardly any NPCs we can itneract with or have their own routine, and actually at times has NPCs with literally no substance that we can actually walk THROUGH.

Like many posters have stated, we all would want Bioware to put forth a concerted effort to show us more about Thedas when designing their environments and settings. That is probably the biggest reason we (or rather the OP) don't see many public displays of gay affection. That and the gay couples which are rather conspicuous do not seem to count.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 14 janvier 2013 - 06:31 .

[Jonata]

I don't know. In a future world like the Mass Effect Universe it seems pretty plausible that conventions about sexuality do not exist anymore (after all, the very existence of the Asari race pretty much scrambles any defition of sexuality), but I suppose that in a medieval fantasy world homosexual people could still being viewed as something "not normal".

BioWare already used LGBT character in the Dragon Age world however. Branka and Hespith were clearly in a relationship (and an adulterous relationship at that), before becoming a companion, Leliana was with Marjolaine, and Zevran pretty much states that nobody cares about who is bedding who in Antiva.

[Emzamination]

Joy Divison wrote...

I think it's pretty clear between the dialogue that Wade and Herren have in Origins and Awakenings that they are a couple. Overt physical acts are not the only form of affection. I didn't have a "feeling" between them, it was a conclusion based on the verbal interactions with each other.

By the time awakening was released, gaider had already acknowledged them as a couple, so please tell me what dialogue hinted at them being a couple in origins.

Anders interaction with Karl also made it clear there were genuine feelings of affection and that a relationship between the two had existed at some point.

Scene - Please pin point where in that scene, it was clearly shown they had a relationship. Keep in mind that up until that point anders has only talked about rescuing his friend.

Banka and Hespith we just read about in a Codex? It's been a while since I played Origins but through my interaction with Hespith, even in her deranged state, made it clear there were very strong emotions for Branka.

I said book, not codex. There is a book in the deep roads detailing the affair. Hespith stated branka betrayed and abadoned her.

The OP says Lilliana and Marjolaine aren't in a relationship during Origins, but how does that not somehow count? It is pretty explicit that they were at some point.

The op also states the topic is about s/s couples existing in game, not in the books or at some point in time.

[Zkyire]

legbamel wrote...

You're being very inconsistent. If hinting at affection between Anora and Cailan counts then why doesn't hinting at it between Wade and Herren. You keep saying that conversational references to a relationship would be enough but then you discount the examples given of just that and say that the topic is only visual affection. You have to wuit moving the goalposts just because they suit your argument in different places at different times.

It's silly to argue this in the fist place. Nearly everyone in this thread has agreed that more NPC interation, including s/s, would be great.

There was no hint with Wade and Herren.

With Anora and Cailan; we knew they were married. In love or not, we knew they were together.

Wade and Herren? They worked together. And Wade is over the top eccentric. How does that translate to "Well obviously they're lovers"? Nobody knew it until David Gaider came onto the BSN and made a post about it.

There is a difference.

But you're right, we basically agree that more NPC interaction is needed, so we're bickering over nothing really.

Edit: I'm quoting you even though this is kinda directed at multiple people.

Modifié par Zkyire, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[Sutekh]

Emzamination wrote...

No, you read about the years old affair in a book in the deep roads and you hear that they had a relationship from hespith. The relationship has ended by the time the warden reaches hespith, as branka has abandoned her to become a broodmother. Oghren doesn't find out about the relationship till the book is read or you meet hespith together.

I don't remember reading it in a book first. I do remember Hespith talking about it first. Maybe your experience is different than mine? (in nine playthroughs, I might add).

Either way, if Hespith talks about it (then Branka, then Oghren) then it's by no way textual only.

So you just had a feeling, no real certainty or tiniest hint in their dialogue? Yet you state that wade & herren were clearly a gay couple, sorry that's just not logical. No need to state 'word of gaider', of course David would know they were gay as he wrote the script. Besides I've already stated they were gay, i'm just wondering what clearly made them a gay couple without dev acknowledgement, since this thread is about lack of visual gay couples.

I said "I had no doubts" not "I had a feeling". Sometimes subtlety is enough, not everyone need things spelled out. In hindsight, seeing that I was far from being the only one to get that vibe, then there was something there, wasn't it?

Within the context of the topic, it very much so is important. The topic is about visual s/s couples in-game, not people who were in a s/s relationship at some point in the history of the dragon age universe.

Visual? When in the game do we have a visual couple in game, apart from the Warden? Do you see the various Couslands kissing each other or even holding hands? Or the dwarven couples? Cailan and Anora, who, again, might very well never have even touched each others as far as we know (no heir and all that) if we don't listen to Anora later in the game?

I fail to see how leliana comparing an elf warden to the elves of her home land and Anders mentioning he and karl might of had a thing are relevant to each-other in any way, but pursuing this can only take us off topic, so I'll drop it.

Relevance: both are information you may or may not get depending on the status (race / gender) of your PC. You argue that Anders / Karl is a reality only in a male playthrough. If that is the case, then there are elves in Orlais only in an elven playthrough, because otherwise, Leliana never mentions them. Translation: You not knowing about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Really? After leaving lothering a cut scene cues in which loghain is establishing his rule over the bannorn, fast forward a bit, Anora tell bann teagan : My father is only doing what is best / teagan replies: Did he do what was best for your husband, your majesty / Anora is left speechless in shock and dismay, subtly hinting that she' cared for cailan and she's heartbroken over her husbands death, which she acknowledges later in-game.

You're interpreting. And that expression can mean thousand other things (including, "s*it, my father killed my husband, the King, which means he might have acted against me, the Queen, his daughter, and threatened my position" or "My father whom I've always admired is a dirty traitor".)

There are no more clues there than for Herren and Wade. Even less, actually.

s/s relationships are viewed as odd in thedas, not restricted or illegal. Why should some peoples discomfort stop s/s couples from being represented in the public view as equally as hetero couples? That makes no sense. Beliefs and uneasyness do not dictate how many s/s couples are permitted to be seen in society.

I have no idea how you read that in what I wrote. What you argue is something I've been arguing for a long time, only I want the representation to be equal in quality, not quantity.

Based on observation (reading source material, playing the games etc...), heterosexuality seems to be dominant, not because it's forced, but because it's the way it seems to be. Having an equal quantity of s/s and o/s couples would seem very artificial to me and go against the internal logic of the world. In another one where it would be part of the lore I'd have no problem with it (I'd really like to see such a world, actually. Maybe one of Thedas cultures is like that?). Where you put "belief" and "uneasiness" in that argument, I don't know, especially considering I'm queer myself. I'm very confused.

Yeah, one valid gay couple totally trumps the numerous hetero couples, I've listed.

Seeing that I don't see only one valid gay couple, and that I don't think there should be as many s/s couples as o/s couples, the point is moot.

Modifié par Sutekh, 14 janvier 2013 - 07:23 .

[Emzamination]

[quote]Sutekh wrote...

I don't remember reading it in a book first. I do remember Hespith
talking about it first. Maybe your experience is different than mine?
(in nine playthroughs, I might add).

Either way, if Hespith talks about it (then Branka, then Oghren) then it's by no way textual only.[/quote]

Maybe you should be more observant in your tenth. It's a book on the table in the room with the corrupted spider queen, named brankas journal, map marker and everything. Hespith states branka abandoned her.

[quote] I said "I had no doubts" not "I had a feeling". Sometimes subtlety is enough, not everyone need things spelled out. In hindsight, seeing that I was far from being the only one to get that vibe, then there was something there, wasn't it? [/quote]

This. Those same people that had that vibe couldn't explain what triggered it either.

[quote] Visual? When in the game do we have a visual couple in game, apart from the Warden? Do you see the various Couslands kissing each other or even holding hands? Or the dwarven couples? Cailan and Anora, who, again, might very well never have even touched each others as far as we know (no heir and all that) if we don't listen to Anora later in the game? [/quote]

Why does visual have to be defined as p.d.a?  Why can't it also be dialogue? In the op I state I'd like to see these couples arguing.

[quote] Relevance: both are information you may or may not get depending on the status (race / gender) of your PC. You argue that Anders / Karl is a reality only in a male playthrough. If that is the case, then there are elves in Orlais only in an elven playthrough, because otherwise, Leliana never mentions them. Translation: You not knowing about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. [/quote]

Incorrect, all leliana tells you is that elves are prized servants in orlais. Anoras orlesian elven handmaiden alone dismisses your claim, my argument stands. But again this a bit off topic.


[quote]Really? After leaving lothering a cut scene cues in which loghain is establishing his rule over the bannorn, fast forward a bit, Anora tell bann teagan : My father is only doing what is best / teagan replies: Did he do what was best for your husband, your majesty / Anora is left speechless in shock and dismay, subtly hinting that she' cared for cailan and she's heartbroken over her husbands death, which she acknowledges later in-game.[/quote][quote] You're interpreting. And that expression can mean thousand other things (including, "s*it, my father killed my husband, the King, which means he might have acted against me, the Queen, his daughter, and threatened my position" or "My father whom I've always admired is a dirty traitor".) [/quote]

and you'd be right, if not for the fact loghain was accused earlier in that scene of murdering cailan, yet anora still came to his aid, implying she didn't believe he killed her father, which is further strengthened by the fact she had to flat out ask her father later in-game if he did it.

[quote] There are no more clues there than for Herren and Wade. Even less, actually. [/quote]

No


[quote] I have no idea how you read that in what I wrote. What you argue is something I've been arguing for a long time, only I want the representation to be equal in quality, not quantity. [/quote]  Really?

[quote] If by equally you mean in the same quantity, then they shouldn't be. As
tolerant as Thedas seems to be (and then again, it probably varies from
one country to another - the dwarves, for instance, didn't seem
particularly fond of it), heterosexuality still seems to be the "norm",
or, at least, the majority (there might be lots of bi among them, we'll
never know). Having an equal amount of s/s and o/s wouldn't make sense
in the Thedas societies we've seen so far.[/quote]

You can't see s/s relations are oddities, so there should be limited amount in thedas public society, in what you wrote? Interesting. You even flat out imply in parentheses that there might be gays in hiding among the hetero public.

[quote] Based on observation (reading source material, playing the games etc...), heterosexuality seems to be dominant, not because it's forced, but because it's the way it seems to be. Having an equal quantity of s/s and o/s couples would seem very artificial to me and go against the internal logic of the world. In another one where it would be part of the lore I'd have no problem with it (I'd really like to see such a world, actually. Maybe one of Thedas cultures is like that?). Where you put "belief" and "uneasiness" in that argument, I don't know, especially considering I'm queer myself. I'm very confused. [/quote]

Wrong people in thedas are pressured to have hetero relations for the sole purpose of children. Yes, yes I've heard the whole if I don't agree with it, it must go against the lore argument one too many times before. Thing is, it doesn't go against the lore. It's stated that s/s relations are considered odd, not that there are a limited number of  them in thedas. I have a gay friend, too.

[quote] Seeing that I don't see only one valid gay couple, and that I don't think there should be as many s/s couples as o/s couples, the point is moot.
[/quote]

Sorry, context of thread trumps personal interpretation.

Modifié par Emzamination, 14 janvier 2013 - 08:35 .

[killswitch423]

Emzam, if nothing else, your threads are always thoroughly entertaining and spark rich debates.

As far as I'm concerned, seeing more NPC relationships on both sides of the fence would be great.

[Emzamination]

N7_killswitch wrote...

Emzam, if nothing else, your threads are always thoroughly entertaining and spark rich debates.

As far as I'm concerned, seeing more NPC relationships on both sides of the fence would be great.

itz a gift

[Maria Caliban]

I think it might be good to talk about text vs sub-text here.

If something is textual, it explicitly exists within the work. Duncan stabbing Jory, Calian being married to Anora, and broodmothers being tainted humans, elves, dwarves, and qunari are all textual.

Sub-text is something that the text implies. Is Leliana working for the Divine in Dragon Age: Origins? There's some implication she is. Are Wade and Harren a couple? It's possible they are - they act like one. Do Anders and Fenris secretly long for one another? Obviously, they do.

Right, as that last one shows, subtext exists because the reader/viewer/gamer wants it to. Someone who believes Wade and Harren are a couple has as just as much evidence as someone who doesn't believe it. Someone who believes Wade and Harren are a couple have just as much evidence as someone who believes Anders and Fenris are a couple.

It comes down to 'I feel this...' and 'I have no doubt that...' Alternatively, if someone denies that Anora and Calian were married, I have lots of textual support for my claim that they were.

Subtext is useful. Implications engage the reader more than clear explanations.

Historically, it's also an excellent way of portraying same-sex couples in a way that won't offend the majority. A great example of this is The Haunting (1963 version), a black-and-white ghost story. I could also say that it's a story about a young woman looking for love and one of the main conflicts is her reaction to another woman's interest in her. If we were watching the film, I could point out scene by scene the subtext and how that comes out, but not one straight person I’ve ever spoken to has seen it without my pointing it out. Eleanor is sweet and innocent, Theodora both flirts with men and makes references to dating them – this disqualifies them from being interested in one another in the mind of many.

The problem is that many authors use subtext to portray same-sex desire while opposite-sex desire is put on display. A Song of Ice and Fire has a child catch a man and a woman having sex in the first chapter, there are explicit m/f and f/f sex scenes, but for some reason the one gay dude being gay must be inferred by his lack of interest in women. (Oh, and he likes rainbows) Harry Potter ends with Rowling pairing off most of the characters but Dumbledore is revealed as gay in an interview.

So yes, I think objecting to implicit same-gender couples vs explicit opposite-gender couples is valid.

[Sutekh]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

Maybe you should be more observant in your tenth. It's a book on the table in the room with the corrupted spider queen, named brankas journal, map marker and everything. Hespith states branka abandoned her.[/quote]Oh, ffs.

I never said there isn't a book. I know there is one. I said: I learned about the relationship first directly from Hespith. With sound. Coming from her lips in the form of words. That is not textual only. That is a direct account, in-game experienced, from one the protagonist of said relationship.

[quote]This. Those same people that had that vibe couldn't explain what triggered it either.[/quote]But I did explain:

[quote][quote]And to answer your question, what hinted at them being a couple was the very dynamic. There was a very strong old couple vibe there, with both exasperation and a quality of affection and grumpy tenderness (both in tone and words, and especially from Herren) that screamed that to me. It was even made stronger when you see them again in Awakening.[/quote][/quote]

[quote]Why does visual have to be defined as p.d.a?  Why can't it also be dialogue? In the op I state I'd like to see these couples arguing.[/quote]You should have told me that "visual" means also "dialogue", and "textual only" means "there is a text". Knowing your semantics would have saved me a lot of puzzlement.

[quote]Incorrect, all leliana tells you is that elves are prized servants in orlais. Anoras orlesian elven handmaiden alone dismisses your claim, my argument stands. But again this a bit off topic.[/quote]Yeah, you completely missed my point. But you're right, no need to discuss it further.

[quote]and you'd be right, if not for the fact loghain was accused earlier in that scene of murdering cailan, yet anora still came to his aid, implying she didn't believe he killed her father, which is further strengthened by the fact she had to flat out ask her father later in-game if he did it.[/quote]Speculation. She doesn't say anything out loud to prove that her distress is due to her love for Cailan. She might just realize the extent of the situation just then.

In other words: you have no more formal proof of Cailan/Anora at that point that I have for Wade/Herren. What works for one works for the other. You can't change the rules to suit your reasoning.

[quote][quote] I have no idea how you read that in what I wrote. What you argue is something I've been arguing for a long time, only I want the representation to be equal in quality, not quantity. [/quote]  Really?[/quote]Yes, really. Don't assume intents I don't have or put words in my mouth that I haven't said. That's dishonest at best. If I say that's all I'm arguing, then that's all I'm arguing.

[quote]You can't see s/s relations are oddities, so there should be limited amount in thedas public society, in what you wrote?[/quote]No, it isn't.

- We only know about Thedas social stance and amount of s/s relationships through observation: the game (the main source), the books, Word of Gods.

- This observation tells us that there are more o/s relationships than s/s ones. Heterosexual marriage being at the basis of said society (at least, in the countries we've observed so far).

- We also know that homosexuality isn't stigmatized. Just rare enough for it to be considered "odd" or "quirky".

- The logical conclusion is that for an adequate representation of Thedas, there should be more o/s couples than s/s couples, but that the latter should be visible.

[quote]Interesting. You even flat out imply in parentheses that there might be gays in hiding among the hetero public.[/quote]What? Bi aren't "gays in hiding". Seriously.

Since I must explain, what I meant is we observe mostly heterosexual couples, but for a bi person, being in an heterosexual relationship doesn't mean they have become heterosexual, it means that they are currently in one. So many of those people could be in fact found in other times or circumstances in s/s relationships. That's the only point where objective observation doesn't point to heterosexuality (or homosexuality) with certainty.

[quote]url=http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Sexuality_and_marriage]Wrong[/url] people in thedas are pressured to have hetero relations for the sole purpose of children. Yes, yes I've heard the whole if I don't agree with it, it must go against the lore argument one too many times before. Thing is, it doesn't go against the lore. It's stated that s/s relations are considered odd, not that there are a limited number of  them in thedas.[/quote]First, I'm not against it and I said as much:

[quote][quote]In another one where it would be part of the lore I'd have no problem with it (I'd really like to see such a world, actually. Maybe one of Thedas cultures is like that?).[/quote][/quote]

Second, you're right. Your wiki article says nothing about the actual number or ratio. The freaking game does. Direct observation with your eyes and ears, not speculation. I could, if I had a better memory, point you to a Gaider post saying that it's not that common, and is considered a quirk and an oddity exactly because of that. Or to passages in the books where it's clearly uncommon enough for one character to not even think of it despite blatant clues until the couple kisses right before his eyes (Maric in the Calling, re: Julien & Nicolas).

But I had the impression you wanted to stick to the game only (no meta knowledge), so here you are. In the game, the number isn't equal. Your wishing it is doesn't make it so. In fact, your whole argumentation becomes then one big nice sophism:

I consider there's an equal number of s/s and o/s relationships therefore there should be an equal representation in quantity. The fact that there isn't doesn't prove that the number isn't equal, just that the writers are doing it wrong.

[quote]I have a gay friend, too.[/quote]Not sure what you meant by that (actually, I have a pretty good idea, but I'd rather let it slide lest this thread turn into some personal attacks feast complete with questioning my sincerity on such a topic. If I'm wrong then... good for you?).

[quote]Sorry, context of thread trumps personal interpretation.[/quote]OK. Your thread, your realm, then.

[Huge_Beaver]

I don't know, if it's like one couple in the entire city okay because more than that would just feel ridicoulus. Kinda like how all the love intrests in DA2 were bisexual. And no, i don't have anything against homosexual couples i just think that they shouldn't have too many homosexuals which does sounds very homophobic perhaps but it isn't. Most people are straight and i'm pretty sure there were few homosexual during the medeival ages and before someone counters this by saying that this is another world therefore different from us but i doubt it's that drastic that 30 percent of the populace is bisexual.

[Emzamination]

Ugh, I just don't have it in me to tackle that mountain of quotes. I'll drop it.

[Blackrising]

Huge_Beaver wrote...

I don't know, if it's like one couple in the entire city okay because more than that would just feel ridicoulus. Kinda like how all the love intrests in DA2 were bisexual. And no, i don't have anything against homosexual couples i just think that they shouldn't have too many homosexuals which does sounds very homophobic perhaps but it isn't. Most people are straight and i'm pretty sure there were few homosexual during the medeival ages and before someone counters this by saying that this is another world therefore different from us but i doubt it's that drastic that 30 percent of the populace is bisexual.

One couple in the ENTIRE city?
I'm sorry, but what? Where the heck do you live? O.o

[Sutekh]

Emzamination wrote...

Ugh, I just don't have it in me to tackle that mountain of quotes. I'll drop it.

Honestly, me too. Took me an hour to format the thing.

Let's leave it at: we disagree on quantity but absolutely agree about having more visibility?

[Emzamination]

Sutekh wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ugh, I just don't have it in me to tackle that mountain of quotes. I'll drop it.

Honestly, me too. Took me an hour to format the thing.

Let's leave it at: we disagree on quantity but absolutely agree about having more visibility?

Agreed

[LPPrince]

Agreement on disagreement?

Awesomesauce when this happens.

[Joy Divison]

Emzamination wrote...

By the time awakening was released, gaider had already acknowledged them as a couple, so please tell me what dialogue hinted at them being a couple in origins.

 

Well, there is your opinion with a poliitical agenda behind it and there are others.  Here is someone else who see things as I did

gaygamer.net/2011/03/queer_characters_herren_wade.html

In fact, one of the things the author complimented on the portrayal of Herren and Wade was its very subtlety, something you want to discard and replace with overt demonstrations of affection.  From the linked article:

article wrote...
Regarding such, it's hard to imagine how the pair could have been
made more overt. Using terms of endearment, considering their friendly
bickering, and professional relationship would probably have seemed a
bit out of place. As their relation to the player never steps beyond
that of customer and shop, we never get a chance to look at their more
intimate moments...Ultimately, they are a rather endearing example of a couple who've
lived which each other so long that they know how to hit all the right
buttons. Exasperation is a part of it, but it's difficult to imagine
that with their strong personalities they would stay together if they
didn't love each other in some regard. Therefore, they work as business
and personality complements, and illustrate among the happiest
relationships we've seen thus far in Fereldan (which may well say something about how the writers see relationships).

This type of nuance in the Wade-Herren relationship is one of the things which made DA:O such a great game.  No, I'd rather not lose that to some political agenda which states that they have to kiss each other in the presence of the PC in order to count.

Emzamination wrote...

Scene - Please pin point where in that scene, it was clearly shown they had a relationship. Keep in mind that up until that point anders has only talked about rescuing his friend.

What is this obession you have with everything being clearly laid out to you or the audience?  I must admit I haven't taken very many art or literature classes, but the general gist I have gotten from listening to poets, writers, filmmakers, musicians, artists, etc., is that imitation and explicit exposition are generally considered poor form whereas having the audience to identify in its own way with the production was the way to go.

Rescuing a mage from the Templars in a city known for its rather zealot templars is a highly risky endeavor; this is more than a friend, if not an (ex)lover, someone perhaps important in the grand scheme or someone Anders in indebted to.  Why am we going to the CHANTRY to meet up with and rescue this Karl?  Not a friend.

When Karl asks Anders to kill him, Anders can only say "no," with the tone of his voice saying he doesn't want to.  Anders is a warden, these people are not likely to shrink away from killing someone when the rationale behind it has a logic to it (indeed, Anders eventually overcomes his initial emotionally reaction and adopts this posture, at least for others to see).  He wouldn't be upset about it if he were indebted to Karl.  Anders is initially held back by his feelings for Karl.  I don't think you need a paint by numbers to piece this together (especially after Anders hits on a male PC which should remove all doubt), I think you prefer to remove one of the few instance of subtlety in DA2, a characteristic of good art, in favor of your political agenda.

Emzamination wrote...
I said book, not codex. There is a book in the deep roads detailing the affair. Hespith stated branka betrayed and abadoned her.

And your point is?  Do we need to be hit over the head with a proverbial sledgehammer and have a cutscene while Hespith and Branka making out to establish in game that they are a couple?

Interestingly, the author I linked above devoted an entire article on how Branka and Hespith's relationship was portrayed and believed it was skillfully presented which offered intriguing insights into Dwarven culture, such as the question of notable same-sex pairs in dwarven history even though procreation and politics are the ostensible reasons for Dwarven marriages.

And, just to show my (and others in this thread) view is not out in leftfield, here is what one commentator wrote after the analysis of Branka-Hespith:

Commentator saidHonestly, I think this is one perfect example of how LGBT
could and should be represented in games and media. It's not played up,
it's one aspect of a much larger story, treated largely as much ado
about nothing. It's a facet of the story and Branka's personality, but
not the defining part. Though it may have been exceptional in Dwarven
society, the story itself did not treat it as if it were out of the norm
from a writer's/reader's perspective.

We dream of a day where LGBT folks are held in equal regard as
heterosexuals, and we know that day has come when no one balks, blinks,
or even mentions that it's different to be LGBT. We have exactly that in
*how* Branka and Hespith's story was told, however tragic the
characters in the story may be.

Emzamination wrote...
The op also states the topic is about s/s couples existing in game, not in the books or at some point in time.

So...the writers cannot explore a fascinating story of a same sex couple who had a powerful relationship in the past but was torn apart by intrigue, betrayal, etc. because you will only count the same sex couples who are still in a relationship in game?  Or they can but it somehow doesn't count.

I've been a harsh critic of Bioware and the lack of depth, substance, and subtlety in their recent offereings but you are off base here.  Each of the examples here are I - and others - feel are excellent, nuanced portrayals of same sex couples which invite the auidence to think about the characters, about the story, about Thedas.  Bioware deserves credit for these.  No, i do not wish they further devolve the games and remove such excellent exposition to pander to your desire for overt and in game displays which strip any reason for me as a player to actually engage the game.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 15 janvier 2013 - 12:59 .

[Melca36]

Joy Divison wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

By the time awakening was released, gaider had already acknowledged them as a couple, so please tell me what dialogue hinted at them being a couple in origins.

 

Well, there is your opinion with a poliitical agenda behind it and there are others.  Here is someone else who see things as I did

gaygamer.net/2011/03/queer_characters_herren_wade.html

In fact, one of the things the author complimented on the portrayal of Herren and Wade was its very subtlety, something you want to discard and replace with overt demonstrations of affection.  From the linked article:

article wrote...
Regarding such, it's hard to imagine how the pair could have been
made more overt. Using terms of endearment, considering their friendly
bickering, and professional relationship would probably have seemed a
bit out of place. As their relation to the player never steps beyond
that of customer and shop, we never get a chance to look at their more
intimate moments...Ultimately, they are a rather endearing example of a couple who've
lived which each other so long that they know how to hit all the right
buttons. Exasperation is a part of it, but it's difficult to imagine
that with their strong personalities they would stay together if they
didn't love each other in some regard. Therefore, they work as business
and personality complements, and illustrate among the happiest
relationships we've seen thus far in Fereldan (which may well say something about how the writers see relationships).

This type of nuance in the Wade-Herren relationship is one of the things which made DA:O such a great game.  No, I'd rather not lose that to some political agenda which states that they have to kiss each other in the presence of the PC in order to count.

Emzamination wrote...

Scene - Please pin point where in that scene, it was clearly shown they had a relationship. Keep in mind that up until that point anders has only talked about rescuing his friend.

What is this obession you have with everything being clearly laid out to you or the audience?  I must admit I haven't taken very many art or literature classes, but the general gist I have gotten from listening to poets, writers, filmmakers, musicians, artists, etc., is that imitation and explicit exposition are generally considered poor form whereas having the audience to identify in its own way with the production was the way to go.

Rescuing a mage from the Templars in a city known for its rather zealot templars is a highly risky endeavor; this is more than a friend, if not an (ex)lover, someone perhaps important in the grand scheme or someone Anders in indebted to.  Why am we going to the CHANTRY to meet up with and rescue this Karl?  Not a friend.

When Karl asks Anders to kill him, Anders can only say "no," with the tone of his voice saying he doesn't want to.  Anders is a warden, these people are not likely to shrink away from killing someone when the rationale behind it has a logic to it (indeed, Anders eventually overcomes his initial emotionally reaction and adopts this posture, at least for others to see).  He wouldn't be upset about it if he were indebted to Karl.  Anders is initially held back by his feelings for Karl.  I don't think you need a paint by numbers to piece this together (especially after Anders hits on a male PC which should remove all doubt), I think you prefer to remove one of the few instance of subtlety in DA2, a characteristic of good art, in favor of your political agenda.

Emzamination wrote...
I said book, not codex. There is a book in the deep roads detailing the affair. Hespith stated branka betrayed and abadoned her.

And your point is?  Do we need to be hit over the head with a proverbial sledgehammer and have a cutscene while Hespith and Branka making out to establish in game that they are a couple?

Interestingly, the author I linked above devoted an entire article on how Branka and Hespith's relationship was portrayed and believed it was skillfully presented which offered intriguing insights into Dwarven culture, such as the question of notable same-sex pairs in dwarven history even though procreation and politics are the ostensible reasons for Dwarven marriages.

And, just to show my (and others in this thread) view is not out in leftfield, here is what one commentator wrote after the analysis of Branka-Hespith:

Commentator saidHonestly, I think this is one perfect example of how LGBT
could and should be represented in games and media. It's not played up,
it's one aspect of a much larger story, treated largely as much ado
about nothing. It's a facet of the story and Branka's personality, but
not the defining part. Though it may have been exceptional in Dwarven
society, the story itself did not treat it as if it were out of the norm
from a writer's/reader's perspective.

We dream of a day where LGBT folks are held in equal regard as
heterosexuals, and we know that day has come when no one balks, blinks,
or even mentions that it's different to be LGBT. We have exactly that in
*how* Branka and Hespith's story was told, however tragic the
characters in the story may be.

Emzamination wrote...
The op also states the topic is about s/s couples existing in game, not in the books or at some point in time.

So...the writers cannot explore a fascinating story of a same sex couple who had a powerful relationship in the past but was torn apart by intrigue, betrayal, etc. because you will only count the same sex couples who are still in a relationship in game?  Or they can but it somehow doesn't count.

I've been a harsh critic of Bioware and the lack of depth, substance, and subtlety in their recent offereings but you are off base here.  Each of the examples here are I - and others - feel are excellent, nuanced portrayals of same sex couples which invite the auidence to think about the characters, about the story, about Thedas.  Bioware deserves credit for these.  No, i do not wish they further devolve the games and remove such excellent exposition to pander to your desire for overt and in game displays which strip any reason for me as a player to actually engage the game.

Thank you for posting that link. Wade & Herren are fantastic the way they are. 

[Joy Divison]

Melca36 wrote...

Thank you for posting that link. Wade & Herren are fantastic the way they are. 

Couldn't agree more.  VERY well done and for such a relatively minor NPCs, precisely the type of thing I'd love to see more of from Bioware.

[Emzamination]

Joy Divison wrote...

<snip>

I like how you declare, in your own interpretation, that I have some political agenda, then use that to not only avoid answering my statements, but as justification to rant outside the context of this thread. Frikin Amazing.

[Melca36]

Joy Divison wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Thank you for posting that link. Wade & Herren are fantastic the way they are. 

Couldn't agree more.  VERY well done and for such a relatively minor NPCs, precisely the type of thing I'd love to see more of from Bioware.

I agree.

I'd love to see them in DA3 or NPC's similar to them.