347 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Ashaad and Seamus (if you squint)

This did make me chuckle.

I don't think s/s couples have been quite as absent as the OP suggests, but it is true that s/s relationships have been mostly indicated via subtext or implication (or nod-wink dialogue) rather than being made obvious. Certainly more visibility - even in a nonchalant way, like a dialogue-free couple in a market scene or something - would be a good thing. 

[shadow-warlord]

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

[lady_v23]

shadow-warlord wrote...

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

Asking for the realistic and complaining about fakes.  In a game where elves, magic and dragons exists.

[StElmo]

bob_20000 wrote...

Yes. In my opinion, gay or bi folks should be treated as regular people, not as somebody wildly different from a straight person. That would be really progressive of BioWare if they did that, and not just in a "You can be gay... cool," kind of way.

Yep, Sexuality blind and color blind for fantasy and science fiction is a good thing to see, I agree.

[nightscrawl]

shadow-warlord wrote...

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

Realistic for our own world, yes. Realistic for Thedas, we have no idea. There could be dozens of homosexuals among all of the NPCs we have encountered over the course of both games, they just don't advertise it, in the way that straight people don't generally advertise that. You may assume that the average person you meet in Dragon Age is straight, whether that is because you are straight or because the majority are straight in real life. Without them telling you so or otherwise indicating their preference, you have no idea and it remains an assumption.

[philippe willaume]

Wulfram wrote...

Not to say that there shouldn't be more homosexual relationships - particularly reasonably happy ones, given how Leliana/Marjolaine, Zevran/Assassin Guy, Anders/Karl and Branka/Hespith all turn out.

+1 to that...

[shadow-warlord]

nightscrawl wrote...

shadow-warlord wrote...

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

Realistic for our own world, yes. Realistic for Thedas, we have no idea. There could be dozens of homosexuals among all of the NPCs we have encountered over the course of both games, they just don't advertise it, in the way that straight people don't generally advertise that. You may assume that the average person you meet in Dragon Age is straight, whether that is because you are straight or because the majority are straight in real life. Without them telling you so or otherwise indicating their preference, you have no idea and it remains an assumption.

Exactly,which is why i don't see the reason that every NPC need to reveal his sexual preferences...
What's the problem with it being left in the imagination of the player?

[New Display Name]

When has it ever been suggested that every NPC reveal sexual preferences?

I'd just like to see more S/S couples - that does not mean that every NPC has to be gay/bisexual or in a same sex relationship.

As far as realism goes, it's a fantasy universe, and also a video game.
In the Dragon Age universe same sex relationships seem to be seen as odd at worst.

[whykikyouwhy]

shadow-warlord wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

shadow-warlord wrote...

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

Realistic for our own world, yes. Realistic for Thedas, we have no idea. There could be dozens of homosexuals among all of the NPCs we have encountered over the course of both games, they just don't advertise it, in the way that straight people don't generally advertise that. You may assume that the average person you meet in Dragon Age is straight, whether that is because you are straight or because the majority are straight in real life. Without them telling you so or otherwise indicating their preference, you have no idea and it remains an assumption.

Exactly,which is why i don't see the reason that every NPC need to reveal his sexual preferences...
What's the problem with it being left in the imagination of the player?

I don't think there is any call for every NPC or companion to make some broad declaration about his/herself, or wear some sort of badge. I think the general hope here, and in other threads on the subject, has been for s/s relationships to be more visible than they currently are - whether through direct dialogue or casual mentions in banter, etc. 

But...as far as realism goes - people generally tend to see things through their social default. It doesn't necessarily mean that what is socially accepted/advertised/encourged is actually the truth for a good portion of society itself. While some people may be blatant about their sexual identity, others will not be so. So to try to align some sense of "realistic" portrayal, when IRL we probably shouldn't make assumptions about how people we don't know think/feel/love, is a little bit unfair. 

Trying to make Thedas and the DA-verse into some parallel for how we might perceive all aspects of our world is probably folly. I think there is merit in having humanness, for lack of a better word, applied to the game and the stories within, but there should be some room for the DA-world to be different - to have a narrative that has familiar tones (heroism, love, loss, etc), but it doesn't have to be some carbon-copy, nor should it (imo).

I am curious though why you think knowing that half of the NPCs might be homosexual (in your example) would be "bothersome." Even if it wasn't something addressed in game, but read in an interview with the devs, would it matter that greatly? I don't see how it would affect gameplay or the story.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 13 janvier 2013 - 02:16 .

[Emzamination]

FreshIstay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


It's not important to me at all. I'm just saying that you can't say for a fact that he was in a relationship with karl based on meta-game knowledge you can only aquire as a male. You can't build facts on non-existent information.

This*

Just because you didnt know doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Yes, it does.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Emzamination wrote...

Yes, it does.

Why would it matter to a female Hawke that Anders also sleeps with dudes?

[Urzon]

I wouldn't mind seeing more s/s couple running around. I think the problem some people have with the idea, is that they think openness = getting beaten over the head with it. When that is not the case. Though, I did get some chuckles on some of the posts. I keep imagining some people's reaction if there really was a really open gay couple. I keep picturing the last episode from Doctor Who.

"Hi, I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife!"

"AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

VastraJenny

[Emzamination]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Yes, it does.

Why would it matter to a female Hawke that Anders also sleeps with dudes?

Who said anything about it mattering? You really couldn't be bothered to read the quote you snipped?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Emzamination wrote...

Who said anything about it mattering? You really couldn't be bothered to read the quote you snipped?

I did.  And all I read was you sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA NOT LISTENING as per the usual.

You can't establish that Anders was in a relationship with Karl if you play as female Hawke, no.  But that doesn't erase his sexuality.    Anders, as a character, only felt that that was applicable to bring up to a man that he was interested in.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 janvier 2013 - 03:13 .

[Emzamination]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Who said anything about it mattering? You really couldn't be bothered to read the quote you snipped?

I did.  And all I read was you sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA NOT LISTENING as per the usual.

You can't establish that Anders was in a relationship with Karl if you play as female Hawke, no.  But that doesn't erase his sexuality.    Anders, as a character, only felt that that was applicable to bring up to a man that he was interested in.

/Argument done.

[Noviere]

I'm gay, and I don't see some overwhelming need to include more obviously gay couples. In my opinion, Bioware has gone above and beyond when in comes to inclusion and same sex characters.

[Wulfram]

From what we've previously been told, Orlais is a place where we would expect more open homosexuality than in Fereldan.

Though in the context of the licentiousness and decadence that we've also been led to expect in Orlais that could have it's own unfortunate implications if written carelessly.

[mousestalker]

My hope is that the writers and developers create the characters required for a good story. Not knowing the story, I can not say what shape those characters ought to take. My preference is that they be nuanced, understandable and compelling. Their sexuality has little to nothing to with any of that except to the extent it makes them nuanced, understandable and compelling.

I would find Straighty McCardboard and RainbowGay Cutout equally non-inspiring. Bioware has a pretty good track record with their characters. I'm inclined to trust them on this.

[Gazardiel]

mousestalker wrote...

My hope is that the writers and developers create the characters required for a good story. Not knowing the story, I can not say what shape those characters ought to take. My preference is that they be nuanced, understandable and compelling. Their sexuality has little to nothing to with any of that except to the extent it makes them nuanced, understandable and compelling.

I would find Straighty McCardboard and RainbowGay Cutout equally non-inspiring. Bioware has a pretty good track record with their characters. I'm inclined to trust them on this.

I think that the OP was originally talking about the "window dressing" people in the background rather than active characters, such as a same-sex couple in the bazaar area talking about buying items for their house.  It's a much more subtle effect, but what happens in the background as "normal" does a lot of influence ambience and flavor of a world. 

[Druid Walker Boh]

nightscrawl wrote...

shadow-warlord wrote...

There's enough same-sex relationships and references as it is. Having half the NPCs being ******-sexual would be completely unrealistic and bothersome. As is making everyone a bi-sexual.
In other words it should have the analogies of real life, else it will feel forced and "fake".

Realistic for our own world, yes. Realistic for Thedas, we have no idea. There could be dozens of homosexuals among all of the NPCs we have encountered over the course of both games, they just don't advertise it, in the way that straight people don't generally advertise that. You may assume that the average person you meet in Dragon Age is straight, whether that is because you are straight or because the majority are straight in real life. Without them telling you so or otherwise indicating their preference, you have no idea and it remains an assumption.

100% agree with this. In order to bring normalcy to Thedas in regards to same-sex relationships it shouldn't be anything of note; perhaps one or two encounters or hints to establish it, but in the majority I would think that gay people wouldn't have to assert their sexuality to strangers on a regular basis much the same as any straight person would.

[Zkyire]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

It's not in game tho. If the player never plays a male hawke, they'd never have knowledge of the relationship making it non-existent.

O rly? Please give me one instance in origins where wade & herren give off the smallest hint that they're a couple.

Why would they need to go through lengths to prove they are a couple to the player?

At any rate, Word of God is that they are a couple.

Really? I got absolutely nothing from that in game.

I just thought it was Herron having to put up with an eccentric boss.

I don't care if they're gay one way or another, but the writers shouldn't have to come on the forums to elaborate.

[New Display Name]

Noviere wrote...

I'm gay, and I don't see some overwhelming need to include more obviously gay couples. In my opinion, Bioware has gone above and beyond when in comes to inclusion and same sex characters.

Has anyone said there was an overwhelming need? I've just seen suggestions, rather than anyone stating it was vital.

Though, I will say that the inclusion of more visible S/S relationships can be more than just "hey, that's nice." Most of the S/S content (including flirting) in Bioware games is completely avoidable. When it's not avoidable, it's usually in the form of relationships ending horribly through things like abuse and/or death. Including more unavoidable (at least in the way of less "kill/ignore the gay") S/S relationships that don't crash and burn in a game can be good socially.

[Sutekh]

Zkyire wrote...

Really? I got absolutely nothing from that in game.

I just thought it was Herron having to put up with an eccentric boss.

And I never had any doubts they were husbands to each others. They've got too much of that "old couple" vibe going on for them to be anything else.

I don't care if they're gay one way or another, but the writers shouldn't have to come on the forums to elaborate.

Why? It's like any theory we might have about the game. It's nice when the devs step in to shed some Word of God on the subject. What makes the topic so different from the multitude that they shouldn't have to elaborate? (if you count DG's single sentence as elaboration, that is)

[Zkyire]

Sutekh wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Really? I got absolutely nothing from that in game.

I just thought it was Herron having to put up with an eccentric boss.

And I never had any doubts they were husbands to each others. They've got too much of that "old couple" vibe going on for them to be anything else.

I don't care if they're gay one way or another, but the writers shouldn't have to come on the forums to elaborate.

Why? It's like any theory we might have about the game. It's nice when the devs step in to shed some Word of God on the subject. What makes the topic so different from the multitude that they shouldn't have to elaborate? (if you count DG's single sentence as elaboration, that is)

Because they're basically hiding it.

Two characters working together is quite different from two characters sleeping together.

Not getting all the information in game, and instead having to find random forum posts/twitter posts to explain what happend is an annoying thing that BW does.

[Wulfram]

Zkyire wrote...

Because they're basically hiding it.

Two characters working together is quite different from two characters sleeping together.

Not getting all the information in game, and instead having to find random forum posts/twitter posts to explain what happend is an annoying thing that BW does.

Well, most people don't go

"Hello, random customer.  Did you know we're sleeping together?"

And this is a point about a pair of very minor characters that isn't at all relevant to the plot of the game.